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Old 12-12-2020, 08:18 PM   #76
Norm Peterson
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Originally Posted by legacygt777 View Post
Having the 6MT on the current legacy really makes no sense in 2020. The latest lines of legacies even the 2018 on up are in form more of a lower end luxury and having a 6MT would make no sales. Is my 3.6 R like my 05Gt? No. But it's a lot easier to drive and cruises better on the highway. Plus all the amenities makes it so easy to like. But that's me. If I'm in the mood for boost, I just take out my WRX on the weekend.

And those 2010 Legacy GT's with manual tranny's were terrible. Very numb feeling vehicles...which is why I traded my 05 Gt LTD for a 11 WRX ltd.
The main thing that got us into our 2010 LGT was the fact that it had decent power for a family sedan and specifically that it still could be had with a manual transmission. We bought it for the stick-shift driving, not the boost or any of the luxury features, and we bought our WRX for the exact same reasons. If the LGT had continued into the 2019 model year with the 6MT, we might well have gotten another.

For us, the lack of a MT is a hard no, a deal-breaker. It's just the way we want our cars to be put together. Everything else is secondary . . . at best.


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I really like the CVT's in the legacy and Ascent. Subaru did a great job and I don't understand the hate.
Not everybody appreciates the way a CVT basically separates engine rpms from actual road speed . . . under acceleration it sounds too much like something in the powertrain is slipping, which was always a bad thing in regular production cars. Could make people think of a dying clutch if they have MT experience with that happening, or it could remind them of an AT with line pressure or low fluid level problems if they've had that sort of experience with a conventional automatic. All bad and potentially expensive things.

Another thing is that CVTs tend to be "soft" when accelerating away from a full stop. Once underway, I'm sure they're better, but you have to remember that this is an enthusiast-oriented forum and that hard acceleration away from a stop when the light goes green is still a big part of that enthusiasm for most.

I think that covers the majority of people who don't care for CVTs. I don't care for them because they're sort of like any other automatic in most respects only worse. Worse as in even more different from driving a stick-shift car.


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Old 12-13-2020, 04:40 AM   #77
legacygt777
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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
The main thing that got us into our 2010 LGT was the fact that it had decent power for a family sedan and specifically that it still could be had with a manual transmission. We bought it for the stick-shift driving, not the boost or any of the luxury features, and we bought our WRX for the exact same reasons. If the LGT had continued into the 2019 model year with the 6MT, we might well have gotten another.

For us, the lack of a MT is a hard no, a deal-breaker. It's just the way we want our cars to be put together. Everything else is secondary . . . at best.



Not everybody appreciates the way a CVT basically separates engine rpms from actual road speed . . . under acceleration it sounds too much like something in the powertrain is slipping, which was always a bad thing in regular production cars. Could make people think of a dying clutch if they have MT experience with that happening, or it could remind them of an AT with line pressure or low fluid level problems if they've had that sort of experience with a conventional automatic. All bad and potentially expensive things.

Another thing is that CVTs tend to be "soft" when accelerating away from a full stop. Once underway, I'm sure they're better, but you have to remember that this is an enthusiast-oriented forum and that hard acceleration away from a stop when the light goes green is still a big part of that enthusiasm for most.

I think that covers the majority of people who don't care for CVTs. I don't care for them because they're sort of like any other automatic in most respects only worse. Worse as in even more different from driving a stick-shift car.


Norm
With all due respect to 2010 GT owners, if you owned the previous generation it was failure. There's reason why the 05-09 gen didn't update their cars to 2010 models. The styling was bland, the MT was worse and had a numb feeling, and the car become a boat. You don't spend 35k on a car because of MT alone.



I see a lot of people judge a CVT on a subaru without even driven one. I don't agree with your opinion that the CVT is sort of like an automatic but worse. Like what I said before, the CVT on both my Ascent and Legacy 3.6r is better than the Forester (and Tribeca) automatics I've owned in terms of driving.



If I get the urge for MT, I just drive the wrx all weekend and eventually want to change to driving my other vehicles.
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Old 12-13-2020, 09:44 AM   #78
Norm Peterson
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With all due respect to 2010 GT owners, if you owned the previous generation it was failure. There's reason why the 05-09 gen didn't update their cars to 2010 models. The styling was bland, the MT was worse and had a numb feeling, and the car become a boat. You don't spend 35k on a car because of MT alone.
Actually, we would, we did, and we absolutely would again. I don't think we paid the full $35k but I'm sure it was more than $30k. We weren't coming from a previous gen of anything Subaru, so I don't have that kind of comparison.

But having a MT really is that important, and styling isn't. We last owned a car with automatic back around 1972. Over the years we've occasionally driven automatics, enough to know that they don't work for us. She had just turned 60 when we bought the LGT and it was her completely unsolicited statement that she didn't want anything to do with an automatic (which would have meant the 3.6/5A version of the Legacy). Ten years later with both of us now in our 70's it's still the same. You've probably never "met" another couple quite like us (and may not ever meet another), so I can understand how it might be difficult to you to see this from our perspective. It's just "too different".

The only thing about the LGT in its full OE condition that I really didn't care for was the shocks & struts, particularly the rear shocks. There was not nearly enough rebound damping to suit us, and this was noticeable within the first week of taking delivery. In fairness, Subaru probably tuned them that way as a nod to the Legacy being more luxury-intended than the WRX of the same year, but again luxury was not the reason we put the LGT on our short list. I ended up doing a set of RCE's special Bilsteins. I wasn't all that happy with the 59"-ish overall height or the EJ's occasional "rumble" either, but it was way easier to overlook the first and drive around the second than try to live with an automatic.


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I see a lot of people judge a CVT on a subaru without even driven one. I don't agree with your opinion that the CVT is sort of like an automatic but worse. Like what I said before, the CVT on both my Ascent and Legacy 3.6r is better than the Forester (and Tribeca) automatics I've owned in terms of driving.
I'm fine with you feeling that it's a good choice for you. But it's not a good choice for me because I'm opposed to owning a car whose transmission can do any of its own shifting. What makes the CVT worse in this respect is specifically because it does not have discrete shifting (even though it may pretend to), just a vague morphing as the pulley ratio varies. Like I said, it's like something is slipping that in my experience always meant that something expensive was about to need attention.


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If I get the urge for MT, I just drive the wrx all weekend and eventually want to change to driving my other vehicles.
I'm afraid that since I always want to be driving MT and don't buy automatics to begin with, there's no such thing as an "urge for MT". Any "urge" would be about whether to take the Mustang instead, or any of the previous non-Subaru cars.


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Old 12-13-2020, 01:02 PM   #79
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Actually, we would, we did, and we absolutely would again. I don't think we paid the full $35k but I'm sure it was more than $30k. We weren't coming from a previous gen of anything Subaru, so I don't have that kind of comparison.

But having a MT really is that important, and styling isn't. We last owned a car with automatic back around 1972. Over the years we've occasionally driven automatics, enough to know that they don't work for us. She had just turned 60 when we bought the LGT and it was her completely unsolicited statement that she didn't want anything to do with an automatic (which would have meant the 3.6/5A version of the Legacy). Ten years later with both of us now in our 70's it's still the same. You've probably never "met" another couple quite like us (and may not ever meet another), so I can understand how it might be difficult to you to see this from our perspective. It's just "too different".

The only thing about the LGT in its full OE condition that I really didn't care for was the shocks & struts, particularly the rear shocks. There was not nearly enough rebound damping to suit us, and this was noticeable within the first week of taking delivery. In fairness, Subaru probably tuned them that way as a nod to the Legacy being more luxury-intended than the WRX of the same year, but again luxury was not the reason we put the LGT on our short list. I ended up doing a set of RCE's special Bilsteins. I wasn't all that happy with the 59"-ish overall height or the EJ's occasional "rumble" either, but it was way easier to overlook the first and drive around the second than try to live with an automatic.



I'm fine with you feeling that it's a good choice for you. But it's not a good choice for me because I'm opposed to owning a car whose transmission can do any of its own shifting. What makes the CVT worse in this respect is specifically because it does not have discrete shifting (even though it may pretend to), just a vague morphing as the pulley ratio varies. Like I said, it's like something is slipping that in my experience always meant that something expensive was about to need attention.



I'm afraid that since I always want to be driving MT and don't buy automatics to begin with, there's no such thing as an "urge for MT". Any "urge" would be about whether to take the Mustang instead, or any of the previous non-Subaru cars.


Norm
I understand the importance of MT. I've been driving one since I was 16. It's what I drive today in my 40s. I never stopped.

But my point is that many people online automatically bash the subaru CVT is bad without even having driven one. No you don't get that burn rubber tire jump and its a different feel but its still really good and there are different driving dynamics that you can use with the paddle shifters.

I was one of the first Legacy GT in owners in my city. So the 05-09 gen was a special one. When the cornering, stick shifting, styling, and overall vibe went down on the 2010 model, I went 11 WRX ltd.

It's interesting the 2018 3.6r legacy I recently bought is such a great car. It's actually a great cruiser. There are aspects of it that are better than my wrx and legacy gt. To each their own.
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Old 12-14-2020, 08:39 AM   #80
Norm Peterson
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But my point is that many people online automatically bash the subaru CVT is bad without even having driven one. No you don't get that burn rubber tire jump and its a different feel but its still really good and there are different driving dynamics that you can use with the paddle shifters.
That 'different feel' would take some getting used to, and it's perhaps possible that the enthusiasts among us - meaning NASIOC forum members in general - would both expect that and be a bit hesitant about. I think another reason enthusiasts (mainly) haven't been on board with CVTs is related to both that and to the fact that CVTs have had some teething problems (Nissan in particular). Word gets around, and Nissan's solution to their big CVT problem in the Murano was to replace the whole CVT unit rather than attempt a shop fix. A huge expense if out of warranty (and before the warranty was extended), and a lot of down-time regardless.


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I was one of the first Legacy GT in owners in my city. So the 05-09 gen was a special one. When the cornering, stick shifting, styling, and overall vibe went down on the 2010 model, I went 11 WRX ltd.
Our car buying cycle is probably longer than that of most folks, averaging 7 years over almost 50 years, and we keep them a long time as well (16 years and change). So having bought a full-fledged family sedan in 2001 (a Nissan Maxima 20AE), the Mustang in 2008, and still owning the Mazda 626 we bought in 1995, we wouldn't have even been looking to see what was available in 2010 under normal circumstances. But something came up involving a family member so we kind of got pushed into it. It's likely we'd have bought another Maxima if that car had still been available in MT, but since it had gone automatic-only several years earlier (CVT, which didn't make any difference because any automatic was a hard no) it never made it to even the "long list".


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It's interesting the 2018 3.6r legacy I recently bought is such a great car. It's actually a great cruiser. There are aspects of it that are better than my wrx and legacy gt. To each their own.
No doubt. The truth is, if Subaru had offered the H6 Legacy with a 6MT back in 2010 there is little doubt that we would have gone that way over the turbo H4/6MT arrangement.


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Old 12-14-2020, 06:04 PM   #81
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I don't have any experience with Subaru CVT's but from reading reddit's just rolled into the shop subreddit, there's a consensus that Ford dual clutch transmissions used in the Fiesta have major reliability problems starting around 60k because they use a dry lubrication system.
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Old 12-16-2020, 10:09 AM   #82
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I don't have any experience with Subaru CVT's but from reading reddit's just rolled into the shop subreddit, there's a consensus that Ford dual clutch transmissions used in the Fiesta have major reliability problems starting around 60k because they use a dry lubrication system.
The ford dual clutch used in the focus/fiesta is probably one of the worst transmissions put into production. It's not even in the same universe as VW's dual clutch. It was a design failure from the start but was pushed into production by higher ups to prevent money loss

I had a 13 focus with that transmission and it got lemoned
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Old 12-16-2020, 10:58 AM   #83
Norm Peterson
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I don't have any experience with Subaru CVT's but from reading reddit's just rolled into the shop subreddit, there's a consensus that Ford dual clutch transmissions used in the Fiesta have major reliability problems starting around 60k because they use a dry lubrication system.
All I can make out of this is that while the Subie's CVT is mostly under-appreciated, the Fiesta DCT ended up being flat-out hated.


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Old 12-16-2020, 02:27 PM   #84
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CVT are a bit under-rated.

Driving-wise and tuned correctly, CVT feels like a sequential 6 spd. Most CVT are fully-locked up at around 20 mph, some off-idle. That means it's a hard connection to the wheels thru a forward clutch pack and CVT belt, not much different than a manual tranmission car. That mushy feeling is either the CVT running with the torque converter open, or oil pump cavitation causing the belt to slip, tuning or whatever. But IMHO it's fixable, not so much the technology limitation.

Tuning and what-not might make the difference. I run ECUTek and they do something to the map, plus I'm running an upgraded TCM flash from Nissan that fixed a ton of wonkyness with the CVT. I prefer it now way more than an auto-trans and about equal to a 6-spd.
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Old 12-16-2020, 07:23 PM   #85
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All I can make out of this is that while the Subie's CVT is mostly under-appreciated, the Fiesta DCT ended up being flat-out hated.


Norm
Ford hates it even more than we do. They've offered a $30 million settlement for that abortion of a transmission for which they have NEVER had any fix for. The unit is actually quite interesting if you look into it. From the mechanical parts to the electronic controllers, there are multiple points that regularly fail resulting in the car shutting down. Great thing to happen when passing that semi on the highway.

For CVT lovers, come take my 13 Crosstrek limited for a romp. Then you'll understand why people hate CVTs. My wife's 17 Legacy CVT is absolutely fine. Yes, of course I've driven both cars. My newest Subaru is a 19 Crosstrek premium 6MT.
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Old 12-16-2020, 07:29 PM   #86
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Nothing wrong with CVT, it's fine. But that is the problem, it's FINE.
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Old 12-17-2020, 10:03 AM   #87
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The Fiesta DCT is a pile of garbage, a slipping clutch like non-other.

When I test drove the 14 WRX CVT in sport mode (i.e. faux gears) I thought it drove great actually, snappy shifts and all that. I didn't launch too hard but it snapped off the line decently. Having seen what the inside of a WRX CVT looks like it's amazingly stout. Now I do remember the WRX Torque converter being a weak point.......big deal, about as hard as swapping out a clutch on a manual trans car. Maybe they undersized the lock-up clutch disc inside the converter, but that is a super easy fix anyway. Upgrade that and some high torque CVT fluid with a decent CVT cooler and I'd easily own one myself.

There are some bad CVT, typically anything Nissan related. The Honda Civic CVT wasn't terrible either, but I prefer the Subaru WRX CVT for the reasons I explained. So some of it is mechanical, some is TCM tuning based.
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Old 12-23-2020, 06:32 PM   #88
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The ford dual clutch used in the focus/fiesta is probably one of the worst transmissions put into production. It's not even in the same universe as VW's dual clutch. It was a design failure from the start but was pushed into production by higher ups to prevent money loss

I had a 13 focus with that transmission and it got lemoned
And VW's dsg has got nothin on Porsche's pdk

People actually opt to get pdk on their track car cause it's that good. Iirc, in Porsche track racing leagues, pdk cars actually get a 'handicap' over manuals now, because they consider it not a level playing field for lap times!
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Old 12-24-2020, 12:20 PM   #89
Norm Peterson
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And VW's dsg has got nothin on Porsche's pdk

People actually opt to get pdk on their track car cause it's that good. Iirc, in Porsche track racing leagues, pdk cars actually get a 'handicap' over manuals now, because they consider it not a level playing field for lap times!
DSGs are really more 'race transmission' than 'street transmission', which gives them a better image than they really deserve for street driving. That's kind of opposite to the CVT's image being more about relaxed street driving than performance street driving. IOW, neither of them really hits the right mark here, they're just coming from opposite directions.

The thing about either one of those that I don't much care for is that they both incorporate some level of automated gear selection (OK, ratio selection). If I was seriously competing (and trophying) in some time trialing or W2W competition and needed to find just a little scrap of time here and there to move up to the top step on the podium, I'd have to suck it up and run a DSG. But for HPDE (and any street driving) there's nothing to be gained, let alone enough to make up for having to live with two-pedal driving and somebody else's shift schedule logic.


Norm

Last edited by Norm Peterson; 12-24-2020 at 12:26 PM.
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