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Old 03-31-2012, 04:30 PM   #26
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The RS500 was faster than a Boss 302. BTW, I know they may have been different drivers. You said you were looking for numbers...
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:20 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yotsuya View Post
Ford's SVT boss has left to take over VW Motorsport. As far I know Jost Capito led the development of the last Focus RS and was put in charge of the European performance line and SVT in the US. The Focus ST has been taking forever to come out and with all the specialist Mustang makers out there I wonder he was having trouble at Ford. It's also just as possible that VW parked a truck of money on his door as they look like they're going to make a serious push in the WRC.
http://www.ukcarnews.com/features.php?show=558
That could be possible? Who will be driving the Polos? I think Ogier is one?

I hope Subaru will get back in the WRC with the new STi!?
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:29 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
This. The few euro shoppers who had the opportunity to choose between a Focus RS and a STI and shared their buying experience on American websites went with the RS. It was faster, lighter and a better handler.
May be around a track but it will not do 0-60 in 4.6 sec. or the quarter in 13.4. Look at Autocar an Motor trend(that's where I read the article on the special matte black one). Top Gear also drove one and the numbers Clarkson stated didn't get my attention. The car is beautiful but the fwd limits it's straight line accelleration even with the electronics Ford put on it. I think it is the quickest and fastest fwd unless the special edition Leon Cupra R (Copa? I think they were all blue and maybe like 300 made) beats it?

Last edited by lovin' it; 04-03-2012 at 04:56 AM. Reason: My fat fingers!
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:37 AM   #29
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[quote=lovin' it;36785285]
Not a clue why this double posted, sorry.

Last edited by lovin' it; 04-03-2012 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:18 AM   #30
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Quote:
It was faster, lighter and a better handler.
BS, BS, BS.

On the last one maybe 08-10 sti but not any other version. Stop reading ford sites to give opinions on a Japanese car.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:48 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovin' it View Post

....it will not do 0-60 in 4.6 sec. or the quarter in 13.4....
....the numbers Clarkson stated didn't get my attention....
...it's straight line accelleration...





you rely on straight line numbers to define your driving pleasure...

magazine racer you are...much fail with this one.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:11 PM   #32
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:06 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post





you rely on straight line numbers to define your driving pleasure...

magazine racer you are...much fail with this one.
I guess but I don't have the time or money to travel from track to track. I wish the zines had a track and would record the times of each car. Top gear does
I'll look out to write down the times, if I can find the shows?
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:40 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by mpristave View Post
I was thinking "I smell a GTI owner" and then saw mini, lulz
I put over 200k miles in the last 5 years between my 2006 WRX Wagon and my 05 STi. I loved my Subies but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that AWD is a must have. There are a ton of great performing FWD hatches in the world that will run circles around a STi in many conditions.

AWD is great for certain applications and can be useless or a hindrance in others.

lulz.
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:11 PM   #35
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coming from a '10 MZ3 I can only imagine what 40ish more HP in a FWD car would really be like. The MZ3 was unruly as hell when you would really get on it and required quite a bit of effort to keep it in a straight line!
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:19 PM   #36
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Good grief that FR200 is ugly.

175 hp in a FWD 93 V6 Probe GT 5-speed was enough to be noticeable. I owned one. FWD was the only thing I didn't like about that car.

225+ hp in a FWD 91 LeBaron GTC VNT turbo coupe 5-speed was down-right brutal. It would rip the steering wheel out of your hands if you were only paying attention to the throttle and the gear shifter.

crazy hp in FWD, especially with unequal-length driveshafts, is a recipe for torque-steer unpleasantness. That and the antithetical-to-physics weight transfer behavior, unloading the front end on acceleration, and over-taxing the front tires under acceleration and steering, let alone if you quickly change from braking and steering back to acceleration and steering... Plus, the front-heavy tendency to understeer anyway, is why Front Wheel Drive is WRONG wheel drive.

AWD or RWD is all I will buy, unless I am forced into a geo-metro-like ultra-cheapo-econobox, and don't care a whit about pounding that car into the ground, or won't ever be driving it in conditions that I actually have expectation of competent performance, like anything more than a stiff breeze, weather-wise.

Ford Focus, and Mazdaspeed 3 for that matter, matter nothing to me, as they aren't anything but FWD. If it were real AWD with a stick or DCT, I would perhaps start considering it.

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Old 04-03-2012, 09:24 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1PearlyWhite1
coming from a '10 MZ3 I can only imagine what 40ish more HP in a FWD car would really be like. The MZ3 was unruly as hell when you would really get on it and required quite a bit of effort to keep it in a straight line!
Which is why Ford significantly upgraded the front suspension design for the RS. ie: Revoknuckle
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:51 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by mbs627 View Post
I put over 200k miles in the last 5 years between my 2006 WRX Wagon and my 05 STi. I loved my Subies but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that AWD is a must have. There are a ton of great performing FWD hatches in the world that will run circles around a STi in many conditions.

AWD is great for certain applications and can be useless or a hindrance in others.

lulz.
..and by a ton, you mean one or two.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:11 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Good grief that FR200 is ugly.
1999... It was a simpler time

I want to like the Focus ST, but I actually prefer the "normal" bumper to the ST's bumper. The rest of the specs are nice, the new Focuses are killer.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:14 AM   #40
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HIp,

I would propose that a LeBaron and a Probe Gt are not the end all be all best examples of FWD on the planet.

IF your opinion comes from those, then perhaps you missed an entire generation of cars like the Integra Type R, and MS3, and Mini Cooper S. Those cars are sublime handlers by any measure. FWD can be amazing when the engineers put their mind to it.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:35 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody06967 View Post
..and by a ton, you mean one or two.
Yup. Just one or two. Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
FWD can be amazing when the engineers put their mind to it.
/\/\/\
This. I was worried I would get the same smiles per mile I got out of my Subies with my Mini, but I've been happy with it since July.

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Old 04-04-2012, 12:26 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
HIp,

I would propose that a LeBaron and a Probe Gt are not the end all be all best examples of FWD on the planet.

IF your opinion comes from those, then perhaps you missed an entire generation of cars like the Integra Type R, and MS3, and Mini Cooper S. Those cars are sublime handlers by any measure. FWD can be amazing when the engineers put their mind to it.
Someone was just talking about Mazdaspeed 3 having torque steer issues.

I never said those two cars were the best ever, but I have driven many other FWD cars than those two... those are two that i have driven a LOT.

Amazing? How? Better handlers than my Miata? No way. Faster than my Legacy GT with AWD Traction to apply the available power, NOT A CHANCE.

Integra Type R may rev higher than my Probe GT V6 did, but otherwise, it seems like it would be a pretty similar FWD 3-door fastback. and as I said, FWD was it's only downfall. I'd rather have a Talon TSI-AWD, an Impreza 2.5RS coupe, or another SVX.

FWD is antithetical to the physics of automotive dynamics, it is a compromise to space-saving, and cost-saving. Ok for that, but all else being equal except driveline arrangement, FWD cannot exceed the dynamics of RWD or longitudinal AWD like Audi or Subaru, in terms of performance. It is a matter of physics. That doesn't mean that people can't possibly enjoy them at all... but that doesn't mean I will automatically prefer them, or prefer to spend my money on a FWD car over an AWD or RWD car.

A family member of mine has a 91 Mercury Capri convertible, and a 74 MGB he restored himself, AND an '05 Mustang V6 convertible. The Capri has a hard tonneau cover over the top, and more cargo space between a vestigial rear seat, and it's trunk, than my Miata does. If it were an XR2, it would have more turbocharged power than a Miata. But the Miata, which I have a '99 NB, is by far the better car in terms of handling dynamics, than any of his. It is RWD unlike the Mercury. It is more modern than the MGB, and has better suspension and much lighter weight than the Mustang. Doesn't mean that those three cars suck. It just means that the Miata is BETTER. And a Porsche Boxster would be better still, and a Ferrari 458 Spyder or Audi R8 convertible better even still.

Why do you think Toyota spent all the money to cooperate with Subaru on the RWD FT-86 Project, rather than just improving the tC, which is basically a scion-branded Corolla coupe? It makes BRZ/FRS/GT86 a better performance car. I may prefer an AWD daily driver, and prefer more than 200hp, but I have never contended that a light RWD car wasn't well suited for handling performance, far better than a FWD car, all else being equal.

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Old 04-04-2012, 02:31 PM   #43
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Are you seriously going to lecture me about physics. I will ignore that.

I had 2005 Legacy GT. It was probably the best all around car I ever owned. My STI was faster, but far from as comfortable.

I have also owned a 2008.5 MS3, and I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the MS3 will out brake, out corner, and beat the LGT on any track in existence. Out of the box the MS3 is a better handling car than my 2011 WRX was. The torque steer was noticeable at times, but it was FAR FAR FAR from insane.

I would wager a MS3 would beat a LGT in a sprint as well, as the 0-60 times in the LGT were based on an abusive AWD launch that in the real world, nobody would ever try.

Your argument is purely based on theoretical limits of what you propose FWD can or cannot do.

I can back that up by the seemingly impossibly dumb statement you made..

Integra Type R may rev higher than my Probe GT V6 did, but otherwise, it seems like it would be a pretty similar FWD 3-door fastback

That has to be one of the most misguided statements ever spoken on this forum. I do not expect that to come from you. A ford Probe was a pig of a car with a nice shell. Nobody on earth or any other planet ever lamented the passing of the Ford Probe. The MX6 was a better looking car anyway.

At many an autocross and track day, there happen to be many 2.5 RS's around the same time there were many Type R's around. The type R's would eat the 2.5 RS's alive. THe Talon TSI was a joke, and drag strip car. Never saw a single one turning left or right.

AWD alone does not make for a splendid driving car. Perhaps the casual way you drive cars this could be true.

The fact that you drive so laid back, as you proved by your comparison of a Type R to a probe GT would indicate, it makes many other things you like seem far more understandable.

Also, the statement, "all things being equal" is an impossibility. Nothing is every equal. There is give and take in gross weight, weight bias, tire size, etc. This you of all people know

I never said a FWD car is as good as a RWD car at the limits. If so, then formula 1 would be filled with hatch backs. I merely said FWD cars can be an uncompromising thrill to drive if you pick the right one. And it would not be a Lebaron or Ford Probe GT
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:54 PM   #44
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http://www.insideline.com/features/1...-civic-si.html

The old Integra Type R, however, is absolutely scalding. With no stability control to turn off, it blasted through the slalom at a stunning 71.8 mph. That's just a little bit better than the last Porsche Boxster S we tested and it's more than 3 mph faster than a 2010 Camaro SS. Some exotics and the Corvette ZR1 will beat it through the slalom, but not much else.



Just saying


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Old 04-04-2012, 05:06 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Are you seriously going to lecture me about physics. I will ignore that.

I had 2005 Legacy GT. It was probably the best all around car I ever owned. My STI was faster, but far from as comfortable.

I have also owned a 2008.5 MS3, and I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the MS3 will out brake, out corner, and beat the LGT on any track in existence. Out of the box the MS3 is a better handling car than my 2011 WRX was. The torque steer was noticeable at times, but it was FAR FAR FAR from insane.
I said all-else equal. MS3 is smaller and lighter than Legacy GT. You can't compare vehicles of different sizes and weights, and then claim that FWD is the only variable taken into account.

What do you define handling as that MS3 would out handle a WRX? No doubt Mazda has their damping curves and things figured out.

And that doesn't change the fact that Subaru isn't known for exemplary suspension tuning. 2005 Legacy GT should be case in point for that,

Quote:
I would wager a MS3 would beat a LGT in a sprint as well, as the 0-60 times in the LGT were based on an abusive AWD launch that in the real world, nobody would ever try.
Maybe. you know MS3 better than I do, but my inclination would be that I would doubt that. Torque has to be limited to avoid torque-steer, otherwise it would pull to the side, or spin the front tire or tires.

An AWD car like a Subaru puts it's power down better, and Legacy's disadvantage would then become sheer weight inertia.

When I said all-else equal, that means very closely similar power ratings, torque curves, and vehicle weights, riding on similar or the same tires.

If you change the power ratings, and the vehicles don't weigh the same, and don't use the same tires... it becomes difficult to assert that a possible advantage isn't due to one of those other variables besides drivetrain layout.

That is what all-else-equal means, the isolation of one experimental variable, without clouding the results with many variables.

Quote:
Your argument is purely based on theoretical limits of what you propose FWD can or cannot do.

I can back that up by the seemingly impossibly dumb statement you made..

Integra Type R may rev higher than my Probe GT V6 did, but otherwise, it seems like it would be a pretty similar FWD 3-door fastback

That has to be one of the most misguided statements ever spoken on this forum. I do not expect that to come from you. A ford Probe was a pig of a car with a nice shell. Nobody on earth or any other planet ever lamented the passing of the Ford Probe. The MX6 was a better looking car anyway.
What are you smoking?

2nd Generation Probe GT was Motor Trend's '93 Car of the year. It won FIRST in the FWD coupe comparison, and the softer-sprung, less sharp MX6 (which was dowdier looking) was bringing up the REAR of the comparison test.

I looked up the weight. 2894lbs. Less than 200lbs more than the precious light-weight BRZ, and WELL under 3000lbs.

Integra coupe was 2689lbs, and Type R was 2639lbs. Not THAT much less, and still just as Front-driven as a Probe GT, and still a similar 3-door coupe body-style.

Claiming that they are night-and-day different is blatant hyperbole, they were all competitors in the same segment, and far from a ridiculous comparison.

Quote:
At many an autocross and track day, there happen to be many 2.5 RS's around the same time there were many Type R's around. The type R's would eat the 2.5 RS's alive. THe Talon TSI was a joke, and drag strip car. Never saw a single one turning left or right.

AWD alone does not make for a splendid driving car. Perhaps the casual way you drive cars this could be true.
Is that an accusation? Do you have any idea how many production cars EVER see track duty? Probably 10% or less...

And your anecdotal assertions are not fact either, after accusing me of being outrageous by comparing two 3-door FWD coupes, heaven forbid.

Your view of the Talon is an unsupported opinion, nothing more.

Even if a type R Integra beat a stock Subaru around a track, a 2.5RS would make mincemeat of a 2wd coupe in the rain or especially in the snow.

And how many 2.5RSs have been converted to turbocharged WRX or even STI drivetrains? And how many modded Integras can even try to keep up with that, let alone in less than perfect conditions?

And just because I drive my cars on the street, and don't risk them without insurance on a track, of which there are none near me anyway, doesn't make my views on what cars work for me in any way invalid.

Quote:
The fact that you drive so laid back, as you proved by your comparison of a Type R to a probe GT would indicate, it makes many other things you like seem far more understandable.

Also, the statement, "all things being equal" is an impossibility. Nothing is every equal. There is give and take in gross weight, weight bias, tire size, etc. This you of all people know
So anything other than outright racing is laid-back to you, yet you think a FWD car is great? Most race cars are RWD, and most SERIOUS race cars are mid-engined and RWD.

Taking a FWD car to a race track is like taking a pellet gun to a firing range. Yeah, you can hit targets and maybe even have a quick rate of fire, but everyone else there will have something more seriously suited for the task.

Quote:
I never said a FWD car is as good as a RWD car at the limits. If so, then formula 1 would be filled with hatch backs. I merely said FWD cars can be an uncompromising thrill to drive if you pick the right one. And it would not be a Lebaron or Ford Probe GT
So what did you say? That the best ever FWD cars can sort-of compete with RWD or AWD performance cars? That is hardly a ringing endorsement.

FWD is inherently compromising. Period. That is the whole point.

Whether they are a thrill or not is dependent on the mindset of the driver, and I never asserted that nobody could ever enjoy a FWD car.

The "right one" is inherently no less compromised than any other, simply tuned differently, to try to overcome the inherent compromises.

If FWD were on-par or better, then Probe would have replaced Mustang, as Ford tried to do, and got it's ass kicked by it's customer base. Or Mustang would have died off when the other coupes did in the late 90s, and a Focus like that ugly FR200 would have been the only thing remaining.

If FWD were better, S2000 would have been FWD, like every other Honda. NSX would have just been a FWD V6 Acura CL sport option package.

Nissan Z would never have come back. Infiniti G would be just a Maxima re-badge.

BMW and Mercedes Benz must be insane for sticking with mostly RWD designs, rather than just copying Lexus and Acura's FWD-biased lineups.

Porsche must just need a damn straight jacket, along with Ferrari and McLaren. There are reasons why those cars never even had the first thought of EVER entertaining front wheel drive.

There is a reason that the engine being kept near or over the drive wheels are both in the BACK on a rear-engined Porsche, let alone on motorsports Porsches with mid-aft-engines, not in the front. The handling penalties of rear engined rear drive are less inherent than the penalties of Front engined FWD. If FWD was a better compromise, Porsche would be engineered that way.

You scoffed at my mere mention of physics, as if you are some expert, and as if I were an idiot, but you didn't address any of it. Condescending is not becoming of you.

A FWD car still has to deal with unequal half shafts, which cause torque steer, unless it is a FWD Subaru or Audi, or Saab with a longitudinal drivetrain, and equal length axles. RevoKnuckle TRIES to deal with it, but very very few cars are equipped with it, and not even Ford's newest offerings.

All FWD cars unload the driven tires when accelerating, and weight transfers rearward.

All FWD cars have to share steering, braking, and motive traction on the front tires, and leave the rear tires to free-roll. Most front tires can't be too wide to impinge on a crowded engine bay, or to increase steering scrub and resistance, so all of that traction sharing must be handled by relatively narrow tires.

I may not have driven every FWD car EVER, nor raced them on a track. SO FRIGGIN' WHAT.

I know from street driving experience in cars that I have OWNED not just driven on sunny days occasionally, that FWD doesn't have the performance of RWD, and doesn't have the traction and versatility of AWD.

That is good enough for me to know that I won't spend my money on another FWD car, and expect to get what RWD and AWD can do from it.

The closest I will come to owning a FWD car in the future, would be an SW20 MR2, which puts the FWD drivetrain at the back, and I still wouldn't be crazy about the asymmetrical driveline, but at least the rear tires don't get to steer the rear suspension when torque is applied, and the car still compliments the physics of weight transfer that loads the rear tires on acceleration, and leaves the front tires to their steering and braking work.

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Old 04-04-2012, 05:55 PM   #46
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Place holder for more later

But while you were posting that dribble which I will happily address later,
Perhaps you should read Mel's post before yours

You know the one where an old type R ran the slalom faster than a Boxster s with ZERO electrical assistance

No nose heavy V6 junk probe gt ever came close to that.

More later

Wow you really are surprising me today Hip
I gave you far more credit than this
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:33 PM   #47
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Sorry to disappoint you, but you aren't going to convince me that FWD is superior, or that I should spend my money on it, while RWD and AWD cars exist.

Good for Integra type R for being an anomaly. Still doesn't disprove the point.

I never said that the Probe GT was the best car ever, and as a matter of fact, I was being critical of it's drivetrain layout.

I used the LeBaron example to show what happens when a bog-standard K-car front suspension and drivetrain does, when you put more than 230 sharply kicking in boosted horsepower into it. It behaves BADLY.

If you think a turbocharged inline 5 with WAY more power than that, and more power than a Mazdaspeed 3, which 1PearlyWhite1 commented has torque-steer issues, is going to behave itself, I think the precedent says otherwise.

I wasn't holding up those cars, I was criticizing them. I won't buy FWD anymore due to my experience with those, and you haven't established much except for an aberrant slalom exception to that, and an emotional "thrill" thing, which can apply to almost any reasonable half-way sporty car.

Buy FWD if you want to, I don't care. Whatever floats your boat, but it isn't inherently superior to any other driveline arrangement. It is only easier and cheaper to build in a factory by shoving the whole drivetrain up under the hood from the bottom.

And the point about the Focus RS having way more horsepower than a FWD drivetrain can handle without serious traction and torque-steer detriments, remains.

If it is on hold, perhaps it is on hold while they adapt an AWD system to it, to keep the car under control when accelerating. Over-powering a chassis, drivetrain and suspension is not always a great idea.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:40 PM   #48
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Slalom times and track times don't really concern me in my dislike for FWD. I don't even care about torque steer. I just hate the lack of traction when pulling away from a stop in daily driving. After being used to AWD, I find myself spinning tires all the time, even when trying to be gentle.

I have 250 hp, but I have to pretend like I have only 150 hp when judging when to pull into traffic. You won't find any magazine numbers to represent this. It's just the reality of daily driving.

Now, continue your heated debate.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:45 PM   #49
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That is the weight transfer problem. Acceleration creates a lag reaction in the body, rearing it back on it's rear suspension, lifting the front. Equal and opposite reaction, and a body at rest resisting being put in motion.

That lifts the front suspension, reduces front tire contact pressure on the ground which lowers traction, causing the front tires to spin more easily. It requires less torque to break traction completely.

The AWD car powers the rear tires as well, which GAIN traction on a dry surface during that circumstance, just like a RWD car does.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:57 PM   #50
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If you would stop posting enormous text blobs and read what I wrote you would see I never said FWD is superior overall to RWD. In fact I said the opposite.

You made the statement that a probe gt and integra type R were basically the same except for the integra could rev. They are alike only in layout. There are oceanic chasms of difference in performance.

The MS3 is another car that is capable of embarrassing most cars costing thousands more regardless of layout.

My point is that how the car is engineered is far more important Thant the wheels driven.

Yes most FWD cars are compromised on the side of packaging and economics and fuel efficiency. That is why FWD was invented in the first place along with safety.

FWD cars come in all favors. Good bad ugly. Just like their are pathetic driving AWD AND RWD cars.

To throw out any car solely based on architecture is juvenile and closed minded. But I. The end it is your choice and I really don't care what you drive.

Now as far as previous examples of a MS3 and a LGT. I lived with both cars for roughly 3 years each. My opinions are based on fact and experience on the road AND. Track.

I have said it before and I will say it again. The LGT was the best all around car I have ever owned. But I every performance metric the MS3 was better.

My comparison of type R's vs 2.5 RS included turbo swapped RS and wrx the type R was still in a class of its own.

Also you cannot complain about test comparisons not being fair for AWD cars because they weigh more than the FWD competitors as THAT IS THE PENALTY you have to pay for AWD.

You obviously have a thing for swoopy hatchbacks like the probe, the SVX, and talon. To each their own. I do not fault you for that.

But you seriously should consider opening your mind to other things. Fwd cars today are worlds better they were 10 years ago.

I the end your views are yours. And usually I do not care what you write. The comparison between the probe gt and type r was too hard to overlook
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