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Old 10-12-2021, 12:46 PM   #2751
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Originally Posted by ProZach626 View Post
Getting beat by an accord says it all, and I don't think this generation will be much better. You have to take a passive stance when you own a WRX... and STI... That angry Karen on her way back to Starbucks to complain about her latte is probably going to out merge she **** out of you and your mud flaps. That, and almost anything is a contender from a roll.

The STI isn't much better, which is why it's probably going to be another kick in the balls. The huge wing with such a lackluster straight line pull is like walking around gloatfully with a participation medal around your neck. I tucked my archaic 300 HP between my legs and swapped my 18 WRX trunk with a half ass maintained swirl marked 17 WRX trunk...

I wonder how terrible this motor will sound with an aftermarket exhaust. The current FA has to be one of the worst sounding motors when modified. It was included in a Jalopnik (I think) article years ago among the ten worst sounding cars at that time.
I don:t see acceleration as a bid deal anymore. Anyone with a Chevrolet Bolt or Nissan Leaf can out accelerate most cars with a gas engine. Put some descent grip on any ev and it will be quicker than any gas car made. It only matters if the car is enjoyable to drive and makes sense from a cost standpoint. The more money though I could spend the more relevant acceleration and power might become. I will excuse more compromises for 30,000 than I would for 50,000 or 80,000.00. What is the balance of things that are important for a given price? I have a 2013 WRX stock power output, I don:t care how fast any other car is, I enjoy my manual and wanted all wheel drive. An accord is front drive only. Also the car fit my budget and makes a good investment as it is holding value where the accord in normal conditions would be going down rapidly in value. In the end I enjoy my WRX more than any honda i ever had. Don:t care how fast it is.
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Old 10-12-2021, 12:55 PM   #2752
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Originally Posted by subyski View Post
Power (and torque) does die off fairly quickly ~5800+ rpm to redline. The stock dynos I have seen have 50 hp drop to redline. So a 6100 redline is not the biggest of deals as long as it's not a hard fuel cut off there and the power doesn't drop off a cliff at the peak at 5600+ rpm. The Ascent dynos from COBB doesn't seem to show a massive drop off from peak to redline.
I would have preferred they solved the problem of flabby power curve post-5500 rpm by making it less flabby, keep pulling hard past 6000. Would work out to be a bigger bump in power with no torque increase (happy transmission) while making for more exciting drive. But alas. Just seems to be the lot in life for most turbo DI engines, low revs.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:49 PM   #2753
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Originally Posted by fredzy View Post
I would have preferred they solved the problem of flabby power curve post-5500 rpm by making it less flabby, keep pulling hard past 6000. Would work out to be a bigger bump in power with no torque increase (happy transmission) while making for more exciting drive. But alas. Just seems to be the lot in life for most turbo DI engines, low revs.
I'd be curious to see what the dynos actually show. Maybe there's more there than what is presented in ratings and tach image. I just keep remembering the 2.0l to 2.5l change from 05 to 06. The numbers presented wasn't much of an increase (3 hp, too) yet the dynos showed decent hp and torque increase. Not holding my breath, though, as that was a different Subaru than what they are now.
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Old 10-12-2021, 03:39 PM   #2754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subyski View Post
I'd be curious to see what the dynos actually show. Maybe there's more there than what is presented in ratings and tach image. I just keep remembering the 2.0l to 2.5l change from 05 to 06. The numbers presented wasn't much of an increase (3 hp, too) yet the dynos showed decent hp and torque increase. Not holding my breath, though, as that was a different Subaru than what they are now.
IMO, speed at the end of a 1/4 mile might be a bit better than dyno figures.
Because, that's pretty much a direct result of power-to-the-ground vs weight (and maybe aero too).
That's the only reason these "drag race" comparos are interesting.
On paper, a 228-hp GLI shouldn't finish ahead of a 268-hp WRX from a roll, and yet, that's what happens.
For sure, VW tends to provide power output for the absolute worst case scenario while, up to this point, Subaru tends to provide power output for ideal conditions and 93 AKI gas.
Let's hope FA24DIT changes that tendency and we're going to get 271 hp even with Cali piss 91 in the tank. Also, mechanical advantage from 4.44 FD should help.
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Old 10-12-2021, 05:09 PM   #2755
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Originally Posted by cbk57 View Post
I don:t see acceleration as a bid deal anymore. Anyone with a Chevrolet Bolt or Nissan Leaf can out accelerate most cars with a gas engine. Put some descent grip on any ev and it will be quicker than any gas car made. It only matters if the car is enjoyable to drive and makes sense from a cost standpoint. The more money though I could spend the more relevant acceleration and power might become. I will excuse more compromises for 30,000 than I would for 50,000 or 80,000.00. What is the balance of things that are important for a given price? I have a 2013 WRX stock power output, I don:t care how fast any other car is, I enjoy my manual and wanted all wheel drive. An accord is front drive only. Also the car fit my budget and makes a good investment as it is holding value where the accord in normal conditions would be going down rapidly in value. In the end I enjoy my WRX more than any honda i ever had. Don:t care how fast it is.
Great post. What people don't realize is that a CTR would have a hard time against the Accord:
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Old 10-12-2021, 05:15 PM   #2756
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
IMO, speed at the end of a 1/4 mile might be a bit better than dyno figures.
Because, that's pretty much a direct result of power-to-the-ground vs weight (and maybe aero too).
That's the only reason these "drag race" comparos are interesting.
On paper, a 228-hp GLI shouldn't finish ahead of a 268-hp WRX from a roll, and yet, that's what happens.
For sure, VW tends to provide power output for the absolute worst case scenario while, up to this point, Subaru tends to provide power output for ideal conditions and 93 AKI gas.
Let's hope FA24DIT changes that tendency and we're going to get 271 hp even with Cali piss 91 in the tank. Also, mechanical advantage from 4.44 FD should help.
Trap speed will be higher on FWD car because you are spinning more off the line. In terms of roll racing, gearing plays a major role too.
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Old 10-12-2021, 05:32 PM   #2757
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Here is the bottom line and a perfect example:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ng-v-8-output/

Mustang is losing power for 2022 due to stricter emissions. That's right. The writing is on the wall. ICE era is over, no manufacturer is going to waste time and resources pushing the limits to satisfy few hundred enthusiasts...Just look at the WRX's DIRECT competition. The MK8 GTI, basically a MK7.75 with a 13 hp bump and EV touchscreen interface. They phoned it in, same with the GLI. A 228 hp recycled engine. Civic Si ? Expect 210-215 tops out of that 1.5T. Elantra N, maybe 5 hp or more than the WRX but FWD and price that will likely start in the mid 30's...Again, even with 271 this car is the performance leader in this class...CVT or not.
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Old 10-12-2021, 06:16 PM   #2758
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Great post. What people don't realize is that a CTR would have a hard time against the Accord:
I don't think that's a surprise to anyone. It's been known for some time that the new accord is like 0.1 second off the CTR for both 0-60 and 1/4 mile. I mentioned the accord earlier in this thread and was basically told that I was totally off base.

I'm coming to realize that this is a stupid car segment that I need to abandon. I don't track my cars, so straight line acceleration is something I value. I do like a decent handling car, but so many cars are improving from standardized platforms that even that is starting to lose it's edge. Put sticky tires and maybe upgrade some shocks and you're 90% of the way towards the cars that come with "tuned suspensions" in the first place.

Last edited by dwf137; 10-12-2021 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 10-12-2021, 06:16 PM   #2759
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Learn how to multi-quote, Derphawk.
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Old 10-12-2021, 06:51 PM   #2760
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I don't think that's a surprise to anyone. It's been known for some time that the new accord is like 0.1 second off the CTR for both 0-60 and 1/4 mile. I mentioned the accord earlier in this thread and was basically told that I was totally off base.

I'm coming to realize that this is a stupid car segment that I need to abandon. I don't track my cars, so straight line acceleration is something I value. I do like a decent handling car, but so many cars are improving from standardized platforms that even that is starting to lose it's edge. Put sticky tires and maybe upgrade some shocks and you're 90% of the way towards the cars that come with "tuned suspensions" in the first place.
With respect to the CTR vs the
Accord, that's not accurate. CTR is 6/10ths and 4-6 MPH faster through the 1/4 mile on average when tested by similar outlets.

That's like saying the 1st gen BRZ and VA STI are roughly the same speed
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Old 10-12-2021, 07:35 PM   #2761
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With respect to the CTR vs the
Accord, that's not accurate. CTR is 6/10ths and 4-6 MPH faster through the 1/4 mile on average when tested by similar outlets.

That's like saying the 1st gen BRZ and VA STI are roughly the same speed
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...t-test-review/

Quote:
the Sport 2.0T hits 60 mph in 5.5 seconds, making it just one-tenth of a second slower than the Civic Type R we had in our long-term test fleet. Its quarter-mile result of 14.1 seconds at 100.4 mph is only two tenths behind the Civic Type R
it's an automatic, and we all know that most automatics these days are faster than manuals, subaru's CVT *I'm sorry SPT* garbage excluded. So it has the transmission advantage. It's also not going to be quite as nimble or ready for track duty as the CTR. So they're certainly not equivalent cars, that is, unless you're trying to get around one on the highway, and then they basically are.


Not specifically calling you out for this, but it's all really amusing. For years, Subaru fanbois loved that the wrx/sti put down good 0-60 and 1/4 mile times compared to the competition due to the awd and ability to aggressively launch. Now that even FWD cars are starting to keep up, everyone's just making excuses and saying that now acceleration doesn't matter. All just caught up in that fanboi world. Glad I branched out and moved on with life.

Last edited by dwf137; 10-12-2021 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 10-12-2021, 07:43 PM   #2762
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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...t-test-review/



it's an automatic, and we all know that most automatics these days are faster than manuals, subaru's CVT *I'm sorry SPT* garbage excluded. So it has the transmission advantage. It's also not going to be quite as nimble or ready for track duty as the CTR. So they're certainly not equivalent cars, that is, unless you're trying to get around one on the highway, and then they basically are.



We don't know this yet.
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Old 10-12-2021, 07:45 PM   #2763
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We don't know this yet.
The misdirection that the SPT isn't a CVT? Or that maybe the SPT will be faster than the manual?
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Old 10-12-2021, 07:50 PM   #2764
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The misdirection that the SPT isn't a CVT? Or that maybe the SPT will be faster than the manual?
We don't know whether or not the SPT is faster than the manual. Even if it is, people will just chalk it up to Subaru's tuning preference/favoritism.
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Old 10-12-2021, 09:10 PM   #2765
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We don't know whether or not the SPT is faster than the manual. Even if it is, people will just chalk it up to Subaru's tuning preference/favoritism.
It should be faster. The theoretical advantage of no shifts plus being able to put the car into it's highest power range means the CVT should be faster. But that hasn't proved out, likely because the belts and shieves can't actually handle it and still be reliable and cost effective.
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Old 10-12-2021, 09:49 PM   #2766
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It should be faster. The theoretical advantage of no shifts plus being able to put the car into it's highest power range means the CVT should be faster. But that hasn't proved out, likely because the belts and shieves can't actually handle it and still be reliable and cost effective.



Since '10MY, they've made several improvements. People complained the original LCVT couldn't do this or do that. The 3.6 engine as an example. Then came the HTCVT that was able to do it. Then they put it on the WRX with VTD. Then they got it to tow 5000lbs. Why is it soo hard for folks to ignore that when it comes to the future versions? And this statement is beside the point of just not liking CVTs in general. People making fun of "SPT". Sure. Whatever. But, what do you want to call it? HTCVT plus? Aside from it taking the old Subaru Performance Tuning abbreviation(at this point, to drive in the nail, I think they should adopt the design as well), this is a way to differentiate it from the others.





And it uses a chain that contacts variators....or cones if you will. Belts and shieves?
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Old 10-12-2021, 10:15 PM   #2767
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I don:t see acceleration as a bid deal anymore. Anyone with a Chevrolet Bolt or Nissan Leaf can out accelerate most cars with a gas engine. Put some descent grip on any ev and it will be quicker than any gas car made. It only matters if the car is enjoyable to drive and makes sense from a cost standpoint. The more money though I could spend the more relevant acceleration and power might become. I will excuse more compromises for 30,000 than I would for 50,000 or 80,000.00. What is the balance of things that are important for a given price? I have a 2013 WRX stock power output, I don:t care how fast any other car is, I enjoy my manual and wanted all wheel drive. An accord is front drive only. Also the car fit my budget and makes a good investment as it is holding value where the accord in normal conditions would be going down rapidly in value. In the end I enjoy my WRX more than any honda i ever had. Don:t care how fast it is.
I get you on the driving experience. I'm all about that, but what I don't like is a car that has way more show than go. It sounds juvenile, but at a certain point... That, and if acceleration didn't count, pointless 0-60 numbers wouldn't be a constant selling/marketing point.

If this is the type of mediocracy Subaru wants within its competition, then just go back to a 2008'ish design excitement... Seriously. At some point, I don't care how good the steering rack is, or how good it handles. They chose to send this WRX, full Civic Si style. When everyone bitched about the VA looking like a Corolla, at least it more closely matched the performance. I'm not being negative when I say that.

Either turn down the volume or give it a set of balls to beat a Jetta or Accord. I would actually consider a purchase if either of those directions played out.

As far as the Levorge, people need to just let it go. I'm certain if it had been offered in the US, about 2% of those who say they would purchase it would actually go through with it.

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Again, even with 271 this car is the performance leader in this class...CVT or not.
You could have said that time and time over the years, because of the numbers, and "AhLlLl WhEeL DrIvVvEeEeE." Except drivers who review the WRX choose its competition, like the GTI, way more often than not. This applies even more to the STI.

"Class leading performance," and all wheel drive in general, is a huge marketing ploy. Why can't people accept that whether they like their WRX or not, the car has become the Whipping Boy. I like my STI, but I know where it falls within its competition. I knew exactly what I was buying, and why I was buying it. Other people give compliments and thumbs up, because they have fallen for the image. Most of these people don't have the realization, like I do, of how far behind the times, and competition, it is. Consumer after consumer will fall for this time and time again. Throw on the rally image, and it's a beautifully orchestrated facade.

Last edited by ProZach626; 10-12-2021 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 10-12-2021, 10:55 PM   #2768
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What? For sure I care waaaaayyyy more about how a car drives and feels than I do about 0-60. Especially FWD cars. I was driving my roommate's GTI for over a week and I just really didn't care for it as a daily driver with no highways to cruise on. Driving into Boston, it's pretty fun, but that's because of I-90.

And I've stated this plenty of times previously: There's a difference between what a car CAN do, and how people actually drive it. Those Camry, Accord, minivan drivers are not going to do anything sudden or fancy 99.99% of the time. I can pretty much bet my life on that since I've spent most of my adult life driving around the continent. Your most excitable drivers are owners of: Cadillacs, Mustangs, performance and SUV/CUV variant BMWs, EK Hondas, Cummins trucks, Chrysler 200s, Scion tCs, FRS/BRZ/86s, WRX/STI. You don't have to worry about Camrys.

However, if you're around Portland, Oregon, you do have to lookout for speeding Outbacks. And in mid-to-northern California there are speeding Prii. Besides those and the occasional performance supercars or hypercars, plus irresponsible drug-abusers or Karens that get the drop on you, a WRX is gonna drive perfectly fine IRL.

But, hey, if those other people matter to you, then it's just one more WRX that'll sell to someone else. Which is unfortunate as I really don't want to see these things on the road.
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Old 10-12-2021, 11:33 PM   #2769
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Since '10MY, they've made several improvements. People complained the original LCVT couldn't do this or do that. The 3.6 engine as an example. Then came the HTCVT that was able to do it. Then they put it on the WRX with VTD. Then they got it to tow 5000lbs. Why is it soo hard for folks to ignore that when it comes to the future versions? And this statement is beside the point of just not liking CVTs in general. People making fun of "SPT". Sure. Whatever. But, what do you want to call it? HTCVT plus? Aside from it taking the old Subaru Performance Tuning abbreviation(at this point, to drive in the nail, I think they should adopt the design as well), this is a way to differentiate it from the others.

And it uses a chain that contacts variators....or cones if you will. Belts and shieves?
Different terminology for the same thing. I think it's spelled sheave, not how I originally spelled it, but just a different word for the cones. The belt looks like a really wide chain but I wouldn't call it a chain because it doesn't interface with cogs. Would have taken two seconds to Google.

My point is that the current CVT isn't living up to the same performance as other automatics. In almost all cases now, automatics are faster than manuals because of the lack of shifting and number of gears. Well, CVT doesn't need to shift at all (but Subaru seems intent on putting in fake gears) and has basically infinite gear ratios. So on paper it should be the fastest trans, but it's not, it's slower than a manual. We'll see what the SPT has to offer, but I know I'll never own one.

I'll retreat out of this thread now, because I'll never buy this car. Will be interested in seeing if the sti is as bad. Maybe some day Subaru will make something that intrigues me.
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Old 10-13-2021, 12:28 AM   #2770
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Different terminology for the same thing. I think it's spelled sheave, not how I originally spelled it, but just a different word for the cones. The belt looks like a really wide chain but I wouldn't call it a chain because it doesn't interface with cogs. Would have taken two seconds to Google.

My point is that the current CVT isn't living up to the same performance as other automatics. In almost all cases now, automatics are faster than manuals because of the lack of shifting and number of gears. Well, CVT doesn't need to shift at all (but Subaru seems intent on putting in fake gears) and has basically infinite gear ratios. So on paper it should be the fastest trans, but it's not, it's slower than a manual. We'll see what the SPT has to offer, but I know I'll never own one.

I'll retreat out of this thread now, because I'll never buy this car. Will be interested in seeing if the sti is as bad. Maybe some day Subaru will make something that intrigues me.



OK.



I agree about the being faster than manuals compared to other autos. But, in reality, I haven't seen a video yet of average Joes going at it to where the MT beats the CVT. My only concerns had I got a HTCVT was the overheating; though, I probably wouldn't be pushing that hard. Seems the SPT will address that. I'm waiting for the STI and if it's a no-go, I'll be ordering a GT for sure. Take that to the bank. I just hope they are not more stupid and get rid of WRB.




Oh, and the fake gear shifting is because of customers. They complained they couldn't feel them.....
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Old 10-13-2021, 12:37 AM   #2771
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I wasn't thinking. I have a chain. Those dual sets of pins that stick out are the only things contacting the variators. The chain itself is primarily there to hold the pins.
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Old 10-13-2021, 02:16 AM   #2772
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Great post. What people don't realize is that a CTR would have a hard time against the Accord:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsJgNbbyY1M
You donít even realize what your posting
Amateur car reviewers racing an auto vs a manual. Obviously unless your a semi or professional driver when the power figures are close the automatic has a huge advantage from a dig. A new Wrx or sti would have looked 10x worse in that video - itís all attention clickbate. The type R is a track car - not a dragster. Itís deadly fast from a roll anyways.
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Old 10-13-2021, 07:33 AM   #2773
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Deadly. Fast.
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Old 10-13-2021, 11:04 AM   #2774
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Since '10MY, they've made several improvements. People complained the original LCVT couldn't do this or do that. The 3.6 engine as an example. Then came the HTCVT that was able to do it. Then they put it on the WRX with VTD. Then they got it to tow 5000lbs. Why is it soo hard for folks to ignore that when it comes to the future versions? And this statement is beside the point of just not liking CVTs in general. People making fun of "SPT". Sure. Whatever. But, what do you want to call it? HTCVT plus? Aside from it taking the old Subaru Performance Tuning abbreviation(at this point, to drive in the nail, I think they should adopt the design as well), this is a way to differentiate it from the others.





And it uses a chain that contacts variators....or cones if you will. Belts and shieves?
I tell you one thing, if the pull when you put your foot down is anything like the legacy xt, then with that 4.44 FD, it should be very interesting
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Old 10-13-2021, 02:00 PM   #2775
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Since '10MY, they've made several improvements. People complained the original LCVT couldn't do this or do that. The 3.6 engine as an example. Then came the HTCVT that was able to do it. Then they put it on the WRX with VTD. Then they got it to tow 5000lbs. Why is it soo hard for folks to ignore that when it comes to the future versions? And this statement is beside the point of just not liking CVTs in general. People making fun of "SPT". Sure. Whatever. But, what do you want to call it? HTCVT plus? Aside from it taking the old Subaru Performance Tuning abbreviation(at this point, to drive in the nail, I think they should adopt the design as well), this is a way to differentiate it from the others.





And it uses a chain that contacts variators....or cones if you will. Belts and shieves?
The problem is it is an expensive piece to throw away when it fails. And, it is failing more than it should. My problem is irbid a dealer only replacement. No aamco, no local rebuild.

Audi used the LUX chain setup also for a few years. They would only use it in fwd apps because, regardless of the number LUX was pushing, it couldnít hold the power. Audi did the math and dropped the whole CVT for an 8 speed auto. The CVT was not efficient enough. That was 10+ years ago. I donít know what FHI was thinking back then.

A chain CVT was an OK answer 10 years ago, in medium to low power applications. Now I think itís just the wrong answer.

Even Nissan dumped the CVT in the new pathfinder for a 8 speed. Too much warranty costs. Subaru needs to quit fighting physics.

Sorry, I am done with CVT talk.

Peace,

Greg
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