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Old 01-26-2012, 02:00 PM   #76
jay25RS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeYu View Post
Im also wondering why your shop didnt install the bung in the up pipe like it is in full race's headers...
This. It would get a better 'view' of what's going on in all of the cylinders.

And if it's in the downpipe then you would probably need a retune...
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:02 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by JarHarms View Post
My thought is that placing the O2 more in the stock location would work nicely when I transfer my EWG connection from my current up pipe onto their 1.5 scroll pipe. Plus it "might" look cleaner from the top of the engine bay to have the O2 in the OEM location. Although....I have not spent any time figuring if the up pipe location is better (performance wise) for the O2 bung or not.
Are you going to weld your EWG to the part of the Batlground uppipe that merges near the turbo? Or are you fabricating something else?
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:32 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by JoeYu View Post
Good news! Thanks for keeping us updated and im glad Batlground is standing behind their product 100%.

i have been following this thread and just received my set. Was going to possibly have my welder go over some of the welds to prevent potential cracking, but based on number on box (i think im number 39 thats been sold?) it appears that cracking is not normal based on number of units sold so i will install with wrapping per BG's recommendation.

Im also wondering why your shop didnt install the bung in the up pipe like it is in full race's headers...
I myself believe that coating as far superior to wrapping the part. I know I used a quality coating service but BATLground does not know this.

I would highly encourage you to ask BATLground to have the part coated if they are willing. It will lead to a lesser fuss IF a weld cracks and they had sent it to a coater of their choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay25RS View Post
This. It would get a better 'view' of what's going on in all of the cylinders.

And if it's in the downpipe then you would probably need a retune...
I wanted the O2 sensor where it was normally located, but putting it at the collector would be a good idea. However for my purposes I can just monitor my wideband O2 sensor in my downpipe.

I definitely do not want to have to pay for another retune, so I'm kind-of stuck with my sensor location.
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:55 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by jay25RS View Post
Are you going to weld your EWG to the part of the Batlground uppipe that merges near the turbo? Or are you fabricating something else?
Yes once I finish parts collection, the plan is to tap the EWG between the merge collector and turbo flange in the up-pipe. It has been done already (older thread) with a FR 1.5scroll manifold. I will be transferring the same EWG flange location from the existing up-pipe to the 1.5 scroll up-pipe. My goal is to have a fairly direct swap install that mates up with my recirculated DP plumbing.
From my perspective this Batlground manifold is a bit easier to fund the project and prove it works. On the flip-side I would be weary of cutting into a FR set-up to "try something out".

From my experience and expectations I prefer a quality thermal barrier coating over wrapping as well.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:28 PM   #80
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As Jay25rs mentioned, due to the nature of the TS setup, readings would be more stable if o2 was placed post/in the collection of all runners. With it placed in/near the mouth of the dp seems to be ok from results i read with full races older setup with no o2 bung, but there is still the concern with timing and lag. Im not exactly sure where the stock location is, but belive to have seen some placed in the stock up pipe. Are some o2 sensors actually placed prior?? (sorry, i know its a newbie q)

CTSparky/jarharms regarding coating i agree 100% with you. But one thing, cost! if money was no object, i would coat and wrap my headers. But with these BG headers (and most EL ones at that), another thing comes to mind that makes me belive going the cautious route is better rather than striving for maximum performance. That is the general nature and length of our headers. Due to the length and high temps that these designs experience, it seems prudent why some other mgfrs use higher grade steel to manufacture EL headers (perrin and killer b use 321 i believe) for strength. Then i looked at the GA of steel which seems adequate, however coupled with the point about heat, makes me worried about cracking especially when coating and trapping the amt of heat these headers experience.

Cracking is fairly common with our EL designs, with multiple designs by multiple mfgrs (we all seen cracked invidias, borlas, and the infamous APS). So i dont belive its a quality issue, rather design and material one at that.

Anyone else put the bung at the end of the up pipe right before it connects to the turbo (where all runners finally end up collecting)? Does this require extending the o2 sensor wire any?

Edit: CTSparky, i just reread your post, i think where your bung is is fine. Especially if you have post tuning results from a great reputable tuner. Im just anal thats all.

Last edited by JoeYu; 01-26-2012 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:48 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JarHarms View Post
Yes once I finish parts collection, the plan is to tap the EWG between the merge collector and turbo flange in the up-pipe. It has been done already (older thread) with a FR 1.5scroll manifold. I will be transferring the same EWG flange location from the existing up-pipe to the 1.5 scroll up-pipe. My goal is to have a fairly direct swap install that mates up with my recirculated DP plumbing.
Ive seen that and its awesome. Can you imagine welding an EGT and o2 bung along with taping the EWG in that tiny area?
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:41 PM   #82
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Default Not ALL Subaru Headers Crack

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeYu View Post
As others mentioned, due to the nature of the TS setup, readings would be more stable if o2 was placed post the collection of all runners. Im not exactly sure where the stock location is, but belive to have seen some placed in the stock up pipe. Are some o2 sensors actually placed prior?? (sorry, i know its a newbie q)

CTSparky, regarding coating i agree 100% with you. But one thing, cost! if money was no object, i would coat and wrap my headers. But with these BG headers (and most EL ones at that), another thing comes to mind that makes me belive going the cautious route is better rather than striving for maximum performance. That is the general nature and length of our headers. Due to the length and high temps that these designs experience, it seems prudent why some other mgfrs use higher grade steel to manufacture EL headers (perrin and killer b use 321 i believe) for strength. Then i looked at the GA of steel which seems adequate, however coupled with the point about heat, makes me worried about cracking especially when coating and trapping the amt of heat these headers experience.

Cracking is fairly common with our EL designs, with multiple designs by multiple mfgrs (we all seen cracked invidias, borlas, and the infamous APS). So i dont belive its a quality issue, rather design and material one at that.

Anyone else put the bung at the end of the up pipe right before it connects to the turbo (where all runners finally end up collecting)? Does this require extending the o2 sensor wire any?

Edit: CTSparky, i just reread your post, i think where your bung is is fine. Especially if you have post tuning results from a great reputable tuner. Im just anal thats all.

I installed an APS EL header on my 05 LGT in 06 and, although I no longer own it, a friend does. That header has never suffered a failure to this day. The reasoning behind its fail-free success contradicts your premise for leaving the headers unshielded, which also contradicts common knowledge regarding spool.

For one, tubular headers on a Subaru MUST be addressed in as many ways possible to retain the exhaust heat pre-turbo, because that is directly related to spool. For another, the reason my APS never failed is because I spent the significant money their proprietary heatshield cost, and the day-long install time of said shield. That shield, by the way, included the up-pipe. That shield also ensured the entire header system maintained an even temperature gradient, keeping stresses within designed limits and within the header's expansion joints' capacity. In all my searching, especially concentrating on failed APS headers, I never found a single one that also had the APS Heat Shield Kit. Do it right, or be prepared for failure.

As for the location of the primary O2 bung in one runner... never on my car. I value the logic behind having the ECU monitor the entire engine's output, not two cylinders.

The APS, as you may know, was what is now called a 1.5 scroll header as well. APS, like FullRace, also provides a twin-scroll up-pipe for their TS turbos. My SC up-pipe's O2 bung was located just before the turbo, where, without getting into that debate, it belongs. While the APS header and heatwrap cost much more than twice the BG one, you get what you pay for. I'm not "selling" APS here, merely providing a reference out of personal experience to a similar BASIC design of a 1.5 scroll EL header as well as some common knowledge regarding header design vs spool. That is all.

I'll not comment on BG's product. I'll leave that to time.
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:33 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by CTSparky View Post
I wanted the O2 sensor where it was normally located, but putting it at the collector would be a good idea. However for my purposes I can just monitor my wideband O2 sensor in my downpipe.
That's not what the front o2 sensor's for. It is for the closed loop operation before you cross over into open loop. Josh's front o2 was bad on his '07 GT30R STI and caused rpm hunting, hesitation, stalling and drive-ability issues.

Last edited by jay25RS; 01-27-2012 at 01:21 PM. Reason: open != closed [dope!!]
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:38 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by JoeYu View Post
As Jay25rs mentioned, due to the nature of the TS setup, readings would be more stable if o2 was placed post/in the collection of all runners. With it placed in/near the mouth of the dp seems to be ok from results i read with full races older setup with no o2 bung, but there is still the concern with timing and lag. Im not exactly sure where the stock location is, but belive to have seen some placed in the stock up pipe. Are some o2 sensors actually placed prior?? (sorry, i know its a newbie q)
I think if you are thinking about a picture of a stock up pipe you are looking at a temperature sensor that was mounted up near the up pipe to turbo flange. This was on 2002-2005 WRX's that had a catalytic converter in them to monitor the temperature so that the cat wouldn't break apart into the turbo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeYu View Post
Edit: CTSparky, i just reread your post, i think where your bung is is fine. Especially if you have post tuning results from a great reputable tuner. Im just anal thats all.
Not too critical for making power... ECU switches to open loop under boost. Wee!!!

Last edited by jay25RS; 01-27-2012 at 01:20 PM. Reason: open != closed
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:39 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeeeeYa View Post
I'm not "selling" APS here, merely providing a reference out of personal experience to a similar BASIC design of a 1.5 scroll EL header as well as some common knowledge regarding header design vs spool. That is all.
My friend has an APS on his 2008 STI and it's awesome... And I don't know if anyone is "selling" APS here anymore...
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:42 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jay25RS View Post
That's not what the front o2 sensor's for. It is for the open loop operation before you cross over into closed loop. Josh's front o2 was bad on his '07 GT30R STI and caused rpm hunting, hesitation, stalling and drive-ability issues.
Jay,

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I think you have the two mixed up. I think it's for closed loop operation only. When you're in open loop the ecu relies on the maf sensor scaling and OL AFR target IIRC.
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Old 01-27-2012, 01:25 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Subian View Post
Jay,

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I think you have the two mixed up. I think it's for closed loop operation only. When you're in open loop the ecu relies on the maf sensor scaling and OL AFR target IIRC.
Yea, I was referencing this page http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic1603.html while I was typing my replies and I still reversed the terms...

[In my mind open seems like it would be using the input from outside sources (like the o2 sensor) and closed would be the ECU referencing values in a table and that is why I botched the post.]

Last edited by jay25RS; 01-27-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 01-27-2012, 07:29 PM   #88
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My wife has this on her STi. No issues here. Install was pretty smooth. She gained about 20-30hp up top. I gotta dig up her dyno plot.
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:54 PM   #89
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Hey guys,
Great discussion. I would like to use the BG header on my 05 WRX which now has a Killer B oil pan. Most EL headers require the STI pan. Has anyone used this header with the KB oil pan? I'm concerned about fitment.

I recently tried an Ebay EL header, but the pan was still too deep even in the cut out portion. Should have known better based on the price. The welds were terrible. It's on the return list for tomorrow.

Also as to sensors my 05 WRX manual shows the stock O2 sensor located in the exhaust manifold just before the up pipe and the EGT sensor at the top of the up pipe just before the turbo. For what it's worth

Thanks for the help
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:52 PM   #90
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It's amazing to me how people will do or say anything to justify buying cheap knockoff parts.

I've seen aps headers crack with the heat shields.

Not to say that expensive headers don't crack. But in my personal experience everyone wants cheap and shiny. And shiny headers crack the most.

To the person who asked about the killer b pan. Why not get the killer b header. It's obviously a better quality product.
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:37 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Batlground View Post
Absolutely, no part should fail this soon. This is what our 1 year warranty is for. We offer full replacement of our header for just such an issue. This is the first header of ours we have heard about having any kind of cracking(this is also the first header of ours that we have heard about being coated by a third party) and we intend to stand behind our product.

We are waiting for those pics Sparky
Posteriquote.
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:09 PM   #92
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Unhappy update

BATLground is sending gout a replacement header. I am sending them back the original header, up-pipe.

I am responsible for removal and installation costs.

I have scheduled with a reputable tuner to install the new header on March. I will be putting the O2 sensor in the downpipe.

I have been told that ANY modification of the product now voids the warranty. (this was not the case originally).

The product performed.... I'm just hoping the new product lasts.

BATLground have been good in returning my phone calls and talking to me.


On a personal note I'm kind of bummed that they didn't just pay the $167. to have the current header repaired. I would have much rather that than spending up to $600 to get the old one off and eventually the new one put on.

This is my daily driver so I can't be without the car for more than a day.

Last edited by CTSparky; 01-31-2012 at 08:40 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:14 PM   #93
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Sounds like a fair deal, although I totally understand the DD predicament. Thanks for detailing your experiences CTSparky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTSparky View Post
....I have been told that ANY modification of the product now voids the warranty. (this was not the case originally).....
Hmm, well that is understandable. More case for me to wait and see how long term use/durability pans out. I am not in a hurry anyways.
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:33 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTSparky View Post

I will be putting the O2 sensor in the downpipe.

You already have an O2 sensor in the downpipe.

You need to have one pre-turbo.
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:47 AM   #95
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did they offer you a refund instead of an exchange? i was going to go back and read all your posts, but that didn't sound fun to me.
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Old 01-31-2012, 12:31 PM   #96
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You already have an O2 sensor in the downpipe.

You need to have one pre-turbo.
The full race kit puts the O2 sensor in the downpipe.. I talke to Pete at EFI and that is what they suggested as well. There is no room to put it in the up-pipe (or very limited at the least bit.

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did they offer you a refund instead of an exchange? i was going to go back and read all your posts, but that didn't sound fun to me.
They did not offer me a refund. It would have been cheaper to just fix my current header, but I want them to have the info to fix any processes that are failing..
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Old 01-31-2012, 02:11 PM   #97
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Spark, I really doubt your header is going to be the only one that fails <10k miles. I just have a feeling on this one.
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Old 01-31-2012, 03:35 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by CTSparky View Post
The full race kit puts the O2 sensor in the downpipe.. I talke to Pete at EFI and that is what they suggested as well. There is no room to put it in the up-pipe (or very limited at the least bit.


They did not offer me a refund. It would have been cheaper to just fix my current header, but I want them to have the info to fix any processes that are failing..
But you don't have a Full-Race kit....

Either way, I would pay whatever it costs to have your current one re-welded.

Are you going to ceramic coat the new one?
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:49 PM   #99
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It is a full race knockoff though.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:20 PM   #100
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But you don't have a Full-Race kit....

Either way, I would pay whatever it costs to have your current one re-welded.

Are you going to ceramic coat the new one?
They want the old one back.. and I'm not going to do anything to void the warranty of the new one.

If the new one breaks.. well then I'll have a definitive recommendation on the product at that point.
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