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Old 12-15-2003, 09:30 PM   #201
chuglobal
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So back then to the original questions, what is a desired A/F ie: 11.2, 11.1, 11.0, etc and in what gear if you don;t have access to a dyno? Which gear and what A/F did you shoot for?
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Old 12-15-2003, 10:39 PM   #202
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On 93 oct, I shoot for 11:1 - 11.2:1 in 3rd on the street. This should land the car around 10.8:1 in 4th. Rich enough to combat high EGTs.

On the dyno in 4th this may or may not work out. Depends on the load the dyno is set to give.
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Old 12-16-2003, 12:04 AM   #203
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Sounds fair - just pay attention and have an extra map setup for bad gas. Since all we get in CA is bad gas, well, I run a tad bit richer: 11:1. Yeah, I recommended a bit richer, but chuglobal hasn't had that thing professionally tuned...

-Sean
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Old 12-16-2003, 04:58 PM   #204
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CLB is still affected by temperature ... the current boost map was tuned nicely at 30 degree which averaged me 15.9-16.3psi. Last night when I was driving home it was only averaging 15.3-15.7psi but it was 55 degrees outside thus a 25+ degree increase. I do have the ABC at 4 turns out from closed w/ the BCS cycling at 50-90 which is right. I can try and drop the turns down to 3 turns out from closed and increase the CLB values which will give me a higher BCS cycling value. What do you guys think? I speculate that the more the ABC is turned out the more it's affected by temperature however there needs to be a balance between ABC turns out vs. BCS cycle.
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Old 12-17-2003, 02:39 PM   #205
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1. Would boost be more accurate in absolute than gauge? I have a feeling I might be too "conservative" using gauge mod.

2. Also I was looking at my old dyno run w/ the A/F, I can see deeps and peaks when the knocks occurred so I definitely have a good feeling that the A/F will correct the knock problems once tuned.
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Old 12-17-2003, 03:17 PM   #206
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Seriously - set your boost down to 14psi until you get that fuel tuned. You're really spending a lot of time trying to break something here. You're car isn't too heavily modded, but do you really want to blow something up here? It's a lesson I had to learn as well - I'm speaking from experience.
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Old 12-17-2003, 03:44 PM   #207
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1. I don't plan on doing any aggressive tuning till I obtain the correct A/F.

2. I just want to make sure to use either "absolute" or "gauge" when tuning. If "absolute" is correct then I should stay w/ it instead of using "gauge. " I'm assuming by your expression than I should use "absolute" when tuning for boost.
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Old 12-17-2003, 04:05 PM   #208
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The interesting thing about the MAP reading in the Utec is it lags *behind* the actual MAP. Something like 200rpm. You can verify this by looking at the load site.

Example. My car's max MAP range is 0 to 19.5psi. Meaning at 19.5psi and higher, the car will use 100% load site. According to a log from the dyno, the car hit 100% at 3600rpm. What did the MAP psi column report at that point? Just 17.8psi. By 3800 rpm the MAP psi indicated 19.4.

The Utec isn't as precise an instrument as we'd like it to be. But it will enable more power than any other tuning hardware on the market

Anyway, the MAP psi reported by the Utec is relative. The dyno will show something else and your gauges will too. Absolute and gauge when tuning really doesn't impact the tuning. If you're having knock issues now, back off the boost until you can tune AFR. Once you can, just get it around 16.5psi using either method and dial in your AFR. Pull back timing if you get knock, then try to add timing once the boost and AFR is in line.

It doesn't matter to me, but if I were to choose absolute or gauge, I would use whichever one more closely agreed with my boost gauge.

Last edited by Si2WRX; 12-17-2003 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 12-17-2003, 04:31 PM   #209
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I notice a "big" difference between my boost gauge and the UTEC gauge mode. The UTEC absolute mod is much more in line w/ my boost gauge. I'll need to hit the dyno again and tune A/F so boost and timing will be more "fun" and won't knock.
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Old 12-17-2003, 08:27 PM   #210
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Actually, the UTEC doesn't really lag behind. One log cycle takes about a fifth of a second, and during that time the boost and load site will change, perhaps drastically.

1. The UTEC seems to choose the highest load site reached during a single cycle to display in the log, but it doesn't seem to choose the highest boost seen in one site.

2. If the MAP basis is set to 19.5, like Si2's, it doesn't have to be over 19.5 or at 19.5 to be at 100. 90% would be about 17.5, and thus 18.5 could be expected to produce 100% load site functionality.

The UTEC functions MUCH, MUCH faster than the log does, making hundreds of calculations per second, versus about 5 log cycles per second.

The MAP in the UTEC is from the MAP sensor on the intake manifold, and thus is going to be about as accurate as it gets for most cars - much more accurate than a boost gauge.

Chu- I use gauge, but you can use whichever you like...

-Sean
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Old 12-20-2003, 10:43 PM   #211
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Wouldn't it be "safer" to tune in colder weather because the we'd get a higher psi reading and volume of air; 16psi @ 60 degrees would be much different/concentrated than 16psi @ 30 degrees?
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Old 12-21-2003, 12:49 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally posted by big_adventure

2. If the MAP basis is set to 19.5, like Si2's, it doesn't have to be over 19.5 or at 19.5 to be at 100. 90% would be about 17.5, and thus 18.5 could be expected to produce 100% load site functionality.

word.
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Old 12-21-2003, 09:28 AM   #213
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Can we actuallt change the UTEC max boost limits from 19.5psi to say 17psi? Thus the UTEC would limit the BCS somehow to boost never goes above 17psi? I figure if you can remove the max boost limits then you should also be able to limit the max boost. I've been reading on you posts and just a curiosity thinking.
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Old 12-21-2003, 12:45 PM   #214
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Not to be rude, but rtfm.

Specifically, see the special constants section under the MAP min and max values.
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Old 12-21-2003, 02:18 PM   #215
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1. Actually I've already read the manual more than once. Remember the majority of the ECU tuning arena is new to me so I ask alot of questions. The 3.1 Manual tells about the min and max values for the MAP however in "lamemen" terms what does that mean? So it's more of a reference point to tell thge UTEC to use "X" column when boost reach past "Y" value. If I have 17 in the max MAP value then when boost reaches 17psi the it'll use the 100% column.

2. If MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure then wouldn't "Absolute" mod in the UTEC work more in parallel w/ the boost gauge. The manual states tuning the boost w/ the ABC at 2 turns out however this will cause a much higher BCS value? Is having 100-133 normal for the BCS in CLB?
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Old 12-21-2003, 02:35 PM   #216
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1. No, see three posts up. The 100% column covers all values greater than 90%. So for you, it is > 15.3 psi. You should make your own table based on 0 to 17 psi so that you can reference what each 10% increment means.

2. Assuming that you are referring to BCS value and not wastegate solenoid (WS) duty cycle. BCS value should be whatever gives you the target boost. If you are referring to WS, 133 is fine when you are building boost. A good target range once you are in the meat of the power band (>3250 rpm) is between 50 and 90 WS duty cycle.
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Old 12-25-2003, 10:07 PM   #217
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I meant the WG duty cycle. It's currently between 80-100+/- from 3500-5500rpm+ and never reaching 133 at anytime. I assume from your remark that the WG should see near 133 during spooling however flatten out between 50-90 later.
According to the manual, the ABC should be 2 turns out ... then use the UTEC in CLB to adjust boost till the desired levels. I readjusted the ABC to 2 turns out and have the UTEC reading in gauge mode and now it's hitting 16-16.5psi in 40 degree temperature w/ a WG duty cycle averaging between 80-100.
I still really wish I had easy access to a dyno so I can tuen myself.
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Old 12-29-2003, 10:45 AM   #218
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Yeah we made this a sticky!

How is the tuning coming?
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Old 12-30-2003, 12:52 PM   #219
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It's going "ok." There definitely alot of variables to learn about especially since I'm new to all this tuning. I've been just focusing on trying to tune in CLB for boost.
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Old 12-30-2003, 12:56 PM   #220
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Have you played with the gain settings for the boost controller yet? They help with spool some.

I could never get CLB to be as rock solid as Turbo Xs says it is. Every car is different though.
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Old 12-30-2003, 03:43 PM   #221
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Thanks for your concern and ideas. Ironically I've been reading on another post I've made concerning the whole CLB tuning. What increment should I turn the gain "down" by to spool quicker? Would turning the CLB gain down produce more consistent boost levels?

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=466461
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Old 12-30-2003, 06:20 PM   #222
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Turning the CLB gain "down", to a lower number, will do nothing to promote stable boost - wuite the opposite, actually, as you will probabbly be much more prone to surges. Seriously, do you notice a spool problem now??? You're on the stock turbo - you basically CAN'T have a significant spool problem. In 3rd and up, you should be at full boost before 3K, and almost instantly after that rev point. I don't think you need to mess with the gain.

Let me repeat this in direct terms - adjusting the gain to a lower number will only make you surge - you are very, very unlikely to get significantly faster spoolup, and you will risk lots of nice 18+ psi moments on your untuned fuel map. 18psi of very hot inefficient air isn't really going to do you any good.

-Sean
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Old 12-30-2003, 07:26 PM   #223
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I'm wondering how to make the boost more consistent? How about that "screw" on the turbo someone mentioned earlier to turn? Where is it located and how does the process work?
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Old 12-30-2003, 08:19 PM   #224
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Search "wastegate flutter".

But that won't make it any more consistent. If you want really, truly consistent boost levels, try a really good MBC for ROCK SOLID consistency, albeit with one serious problem, OR a really good EBC, for neat things like gear-specific boost, and really nice management of boost. Check the SAFC, for example.

Basically, you're never, off the dyno, exposing your car to precisely the same loads, so you're never going to get 100%, rock-solid boost a the same levels. You are simply dealing with too many variables for everything to work to THAT level of precision.

Seriously, though, what are your goals here? You can tune to the absolute bleeding edge, but you will wind up bleeding. I will continue to recommend tuning to the slightly safe side. Are you having performance problems?

My recomendation to you would be to upgrade your fuel system and turbo. Go to used STi injectors, a walbro pump and a used vf30/34. You'll have VASTLY more power, a small penalty in spool-up and you'll be able to tune it much, much more safely.

You seem to be putting an awful lot of effort towards achieving a last 1% of power, yet you haven't tuned fuel yet, despite recomendations from dozens of folks to do that.

If you want to stick with the system you are running, do this:

1. TUNE FUEL!

2. Tune boost and timing out to let you run 16.5psi as an absolute MAX, with typical boosts more like 16psi max. Accept that sometimes, you won't see 16psi, more like 15.5. You'll have a setup that will keep your car running quickly, yet safely, since you will have plenty of resistance to surges and spikes. Label this map "safe", since it should be.

3. Set up another map at 17psi, if that's what you want. Run that for drag racing or when you really want to crush that tweeked out civic next to you at the light. Just switch over to your happy map for usual driving.

4. Remember that you are not going to be able to feel the difference between 16.5psi and 15.7 psi by the seat of your pants. But your knuckles and wallet will certainly feel an engine rebuild, which is what you will get with consistent det.

5. Remember also, turbo cars WILL knock sometimes. Once in a while, you'll see a 1 count, even with a pretty safe map. It's just the nature of the beast. As long as it's not consistent, don't panic on it.

6. Have fun!

-Sean
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Old 12-30-2003, 08:56 PM   #225
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I'm trying to schedule a dyno time again so I can get the A/F worked out. I'm trying to also obtain as much info so when I do hit the dyno that I can be even more productive. I figured that I should be shooting for 16psi w/ a max of 16.5psi during surges. I trying to get as much info before making changes so I can do mroe things effectively and efficiently. I'm also debating for the A/F ... 11.0, 11.1, 11.2, 10.9, or 10.8 ... which is safer but yeilds the most power. My other concern the the boost, I figured CLB would solve boost changes relative to temperature however it doesn't seem like it so far and thus the reason why I'm asking my questions.
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