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Old 01-31-2013, 11:03 AM   #26
Butt Dyno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
And you're completely and wholly incorrect on the reason 2WD cars are allowed diffs.

The allowance for 2WD cars is to level the playing field against AWD cars. Once you start allowing AWD cars to change diffs, there's nothing equivalent for 2WD cars to do. It was not to handicap AWD cars.
So why does STR have a diff allowance? There are no AWD cars in the class and the targeted cars (s2k, mx5) already were available with Torsens.

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And then you also shot yourself in the foot with this... You're creating an imbalance between STis and EVOs. Proposing changes to rules that only benefit a select few cars is the fastest way to be told "ain't happening" "Thank you for your comments. We do not believe this aligns with the class structure."
I don't see how, seriously. The "cars to have" - Evo IX and 05-06 STi - already have pretty equal clutch type diffs. IMHO this just expands the range of competitive cars.

It's definitely an additional expense though. The whole diff tuning thing can be a dark art.

I actually started out against this idea but I do it makes more cars relevant to STU, especially the 09+ WRX. A good driver in an M3 is still going to be faster on a course like the West last year, IMHO.
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:04 AM   #27
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It would likely become a must have mod for those cars though, which has a range of expensiveness, and opens up more ground for tuning.

What say ye?
No, thanks. I'm happy with STU as is, like Yazel said in the other thread.
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:05 AM   #28
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Neat idea but in STX would add a bit chunk of the expense to the rear diff. It would certainly help though from what little run time I've got on mine. The question is, if you did it on an 06-08 WRX, could it upset the balance while increasing the cost at the same time - neither of which seems like a good idea when the class seems to be healthy again.
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:12 AM   #29
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So why does STR have a diff allowance? There are no AWD cars in the class and the targeted cars (s2k, mx5) already were available with Torsens.
Were 2WD diff allowances made primarily with STX and STU in mind, but also allowed in STR without concern for evening competition? Not sure, but that seems possible to me.

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Originally Posted by ButtDyno View Post
It's definitely an additional expense though. The whole diff tuning thing can be a dark art.
This x1000. I can't get excited about the possibility of incurring a significant increase in build cost. (Just as I'm finally getting somewhere with mine... ). Also, it's not like one can't just jump to ASP if they need to upgrade their diff(s). I know A6s aren't cheap, but one who requires diffs likely wants the additional grip, too.

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A good driver in an M3 is still going to be faster on a course like the West last year, IMHO.
Agreed. AWD is hardly the be-all, end-all.
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:48 AM   #30
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it's about how fun the car is with the rear diff
This is what points out to me alot in most of these why can't I??? threads.

I saw in another post where you also want to be competitive I get it. but, yeah you're contradicting yourself abit.

But....if you just want your car to be fun leave the diff run any class that allows diffs and have fun.

If you want to have diffs and be competitive pick your weapon, pick your class and have both.

Perception is reality. The Sti/wrx's aren't competitive in STU, the wrx's aren't competive in STX...blah, blah, blah...I played in STX for years, understood why the diff rule was there and dealt with it because the class was healthier with it in place.

Had it been open to one diff or all w/awd? Damn right I would've sent the 1200-6000 dollars on them! Better for ST that it's not. There's *SP, *M, and *P classes for that.
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Old 01-31-2013, 12:02 PM   #31
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agreed Greg, I told kyoo on the evoM forums to write a letter to the SEB, and GL with that...

The EVO has been here in the states over 10 years... don't expect the SEB, STAC, etc to be sympathetic on the diff issue. just do what the rest of us do, deal with it, work on setup and driving well. Much better use of time vs. arguing with the powers that be on this topic.

Personally, if you can't find fun in the competition within the class, then find a new class or a new sport. There are a ton of great people in this sport.
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Old 01-31-2013, 12:03 PM   #32
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This is what points out to me alot in most of these why can't I??? threads.

I saw in another post where you also want to be competitive I get it. but, yeah you're contradicting yourself abit.

But....if you just want your car to be fun leave the diff run any class that allows diffs and have fun.

If you want to have diffs and be competitive pick your weapon, pick your class and have both.

Perception is reality. The Sti/wrx's aren't competitive in STU, the wrx's aren't competive in STX...blah, blah, blah...I played in STX for years, understood why the diff rule was there and dealt with it because the class was healthier with it in place.

Had it been open to one diff or all w/awd? Damn right I would've sent the 1200-6000 dollars on them! Better for ST that it's not. There's *SP, *M, and *P classes for that.
well if you're talking about me in particular, then yeah, ideally i would like both. if i had to choose, i'd choose for fun.

i guess it seems like the majority of the backlash is coming from 'what it means' to be an ST car and the added costs, which is fine.

thanks to all for the discussion input, feedback has been interesting

Last edited by kyoo; 01-31-2013 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 12:31 PM   #33
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I haven't driven a car with upgraded difs, so I can't speak to the fun effect there. But I hear difs and all I see are $$$$. And it isn't like Littlehale won STU by a huge margin last year. So good luck with the petition and letter, but you will likely get the "Thank you for your input..." response.
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:45 PM   #34
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you know though, regardless of what car is winning/losing etc, from an objective point of view, if an STU/X rwd car can upgrade to whatever LSD it wants, is it not fair to ask that AWD cars are able to do the same for ONE of their LSDs?

Or does that get canceled out since we have a diff in the front and in the center (even if they might be open diffs)?

::
From someone else's post on evom, cost can't exactly be cited as a reason against (for SCCA), since it is already allowed for 2WD cars. One diff in a 2WD car costs more or less the same as one diff in an AWD car, obviously depending on the car etc. Of course, cost can be cited as a reason that you personally are not for it

Last edited by kyoo; 01-31-2013 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:55 PM   #35
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It already has one....
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:57 PM   #36
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It already has one....
? so do FWD and RWD cars, and not necessarily just open differential*.

Last edited by kyoo; 01-31-2013 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:47 PM   #37
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There is no such thing as an open LSD.
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:49 PM   #38
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right, sorry just an open diff...
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:57 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by kyoo View Post
you know though, regardless of what car is winning/losing etc, from an objective point of view, if an STU/X rwd car can upgrade to whatever LSD it wants, is it not fair to ask that AWD cars are able to do the same for ONE of their LSDs?

Or does that get canceled out since we have a diff in the front and in the center (even if they might be open diffs)?
No to the first question and yes to the second. Your second question is addressed directly in the current rules. If you didn't have that pesky center diff/transfer case you could do your diff mod in STU.

Last edited by yazel; 01-31-2013 at 06:35 PM. Reason: removed the kinda off topic stuff lol
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:22 AM   #40
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Id like to see 255 tire limit before diff upgrades.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:12 AM   #41
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Alright.

The reason the classing is done how it is, is to allow for equalization between 2WD and 4WD cars in STU. The EVOs and STIs already have a pretty solid advantage over the 2WD cars (aside from ONE data piece of ONE event last year). Giving them more tire, more ability to use their already phenomenal ability to put power down, would benefit nobody other than those who "run for fun". It'd help run off the 2WD cars even more (which results in a smaller and less competitive class), and it'd increase costs and reduce competition for the 4WD cars. Who does this benefit? If you're in it for fun, keep it for fun, do the diff, and run ASP. Hoosiers are more fun anyways .
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:19 AM   #42
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Id like to see 255 tire limit before diff upgrades.
Fo sho.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:26 AM   #43
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Alright.

The reason the classing is done how it is, is to allow for equalization between 2WD and 4WD cars in STU. The EVOs and STIs already have a pretty solid advantage over the 2WD cars (aside from ONE data piece of ONE event last year). Giving them more tire, more ability to use their already phenomenal ability to put power down, would benefit nobody other than those who "run for fun". It'd help run off the 2WD cars even more (which results in a smaller and less competitive class), and it'd increase costs and reduce competition for the 4WD cars. Who does this benefit? If you're in it for fun, keep it for fun, do the diff, and run ASP. Hoosiers are more fun anyways .
I do understand what you're saying about Evo/STi dominance in STU -

Then, if I were arguing this just for STX it would make much more sense correct? Would make the class way more competitive for WRXs in STX running against the RX8s etc.
I never said anything about more tire, nor do I even want to run more tire - that was someone else. Everyone seems to think this is a knee-jerk reaction to the M3 that won STU last year, but anyway that's fine. Thanks for the input.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:36 PM   #44
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I think the '08 WRX is perfectly competitive in STX. There are at least 7 cars that I'm sure with the right driver could win nationals (barring course dependency). Possibly more. We don't need to upset that apple cart *at all*.

ITR, E36 325/8, '08 WRX, BRZ/FRS, RX8, MINI S, E30 M3.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:09 PM   #45
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I think any year WRX could still be competitive in STX with the right prep and driver. So I don't think we necessarily need a diff allowance.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:02 PM   #46
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You think the pre-08s are there?

I don't know if I'd exactly consider a 2L competitive anymore, but there are likely things I'm missing with that statement.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:05 PM   #47
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06-07 are 2.5L and still have a rear LSD
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:06 PM   #48
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I think the '08 WRX is perfectly competitive in STX...
Preston and I will have fun testing out your theory this year.

BTW - I don't believe this proposal is a good idea, even though I'll be driving a WRX in STX. Besides, the same STAC/SEB that passed a ban on E-85 isn't going anywhere near this one.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:36 PM   #49
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06-07 are 2.5L and still have a rear LSD
A very weak one. It helps with traction when accelerating in a strait line on a very low traction surface, but has very minimal value for powering out of corners on a dry autocross course.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:55 PM   #50
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I know it gary, it's been tested very unsuccessfully.
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