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Old 09-15-2018, 02:59 PM   #1
remski
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Default GSC Cam wear help needed.

Hi.

After reading the "Stop Buying GSC and Kelford Cams" I've decided to pop the cam covers off.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2642831

Fully built block, sleeved.
GSC2 cams. (non billet)

Block has ~1200 miles. Was rebuilt due to water damage. (sleeve replaced)
Now has about 350 miles, with total of ~1500 miles.

I honestly cant tell if this is old damage or new. Cams were re-used and I believe the buckets too. 1 bucket was "dished" and was replaced.
(I didnt assemble the engine)

Question is how bad is this and do the cams need to be replaced.


Intake cylinder #2.


Intake cylinder #2 (some blue-ing on the bucket)




Intake cylinder #1. (minor scoring on the intake cam to the right)



Intake cylinder #3. (it catches the nail)



Intake cylinder #3. (another view)



Intake cylinder #3. (pin mark on the bucket. almost like a grain of sand got in)



Intake cylinder #3. (another view)



Intake cylinder #3. (another view)
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:43 AM   #2
Hyper
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so are you saying cams were used when you put them? did you inspect them for damage prior to installation?

I wonder where the material that shaved of the cams/caps went to...
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:02 AM   #3
Blktrax
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That’s pretty aggressive wear.

I would pop off #3 rear cam bearing cap and see how that looks. If there’s embedded material and scoring of the cam and bearing; It’s 50/50 how long it will last. That will over time open up oil clearance , drop oil pressure and eventually fail.
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Old 09-16-2018, 10:38 AM   #4
remski
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I wasnt the one assembling the engine.. but I vaguely remember being told that there is some scoring...
Didnt even cross my mind that anything might have any significant damage since the engine only had 1000-1200 miles on it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
so are you saying cams were used when you put them? did you inspect them for damage prior to installation?

I wonder where the material that shaved of the cams/caps went to...
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Old 09-16-2018, 11:31 AM   #5
kharmicresonance
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Just a point to think about, those lobes look dry. They should not be. Did you spray them with something or wipe them off before taking the pictures?
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:44 PM   #6
2slofouru
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What do the bucket surfaces on the affected lobes look like? If the oil film is good and the buckets are spinning and aren't damaged, that may just be remnants of the previous setup. The lobes appear off center, to help rotate buckets properly. The look of the lobe may be rough but the profile could still be perfect, due to the properties of the metal used.

You could read the old gsc thread where a certain shop was griping over issues with them, but it's a mashup that really got nowhere and really just seems to be fear mongering. I haven't read that thread for years and was just going over it for any insight (none gained), and noticed a member claimed he had mentioned my suggestion previously when in fact he hadn't...even quoted me to try and prove it. I'm thinking he misinterpreted my statement and/or maybe didn't like the fact someone else agreed with me, lol.

I ended up with GSC billet cams for my $$$ build, mainly because of the reputation of the shop and advice from the builders. Haven't installed the engine yet though, lots of wiring and other work to get done on the rest of the car first.

Last edited by 2slofouru; 09-16-2018 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 09-16-2018, 03:40 PM   #7
dev6565
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GSC does mention that they highly recommend replacing all buckets when installing a new cam. This is because a cam with higher lift then the stockers will contact the face of the bucket differently and make a new wear pattern. Reusing buckets that have been worn in differently can cause the new cams to contact the sharp edge of the old wear pattern and cause rapid wear and subsequent failure after first start up. I know you said these cams have been reused from the last build but do you have any idea if new buckets were used last time the engine was assembled?
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:22 PM   #8
remski
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I've run my finger multiple times to get the feel of the lobe. There was a film on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kharmicresonance View Post
Just a point to think about, those lobes look dry. They should not be. Did you spray them with something or wipe them off before taking the pictures?

So.. I checked the invoice and looks like only 1 bucket was replaced.
The buckets used are the ones that were used with the same GSC cams previously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dev6565 View Post
GSC does mention that they highly recommend replacing all buckets when installing a new cam. This is because a cam with higher lift then the stockers will contact the face of the bucket differently and make a new wear pattern. Reusing buckets that have been worn in differently can cause the new cams to contact the sharp edge of the old wear pattern and cause rapid wear and subsequent failure after first start up. I know you said these cams have been reused from the last build but do you have any idea if new buckets were used last time the engine was assembled?
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:28 PM   #9
dev6565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remski View Post
I've run my finger multiple times to get the feel of the lobe. There was a film on them.




So.. I checked the invoice and looks like only 1 bucket was replaced.
The buckets used are the ones that were used with the same GSC cams previously.
It's possible that that is your problem then. The s2's are much higher lift then the stock cams. If the old buckets had a significant amount of miles on them before the new cams went in for the first time I'd say that could be the issue.
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:44 PM   #10
Hyper
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I recently installed S2 cams into my D25 heads, made sure my lash is good, used the supplied special lube and ran high zinc break-in oil. However I waited patiently for the billet version of the 207 cams

200 miles later I decided to pop my valve covers and degree my intake cams, and I had a chance to check how they are doing, I did not see anything out of the ordinary, and when I was building my heads I only used ONE new bucket because I didn't have the size I needed. Obviously I made sure all used buckets were fine. I don't believe that used buckets, if they are ok, can cause valvetrain failure, and its just something that cam manufacturers claim to write off possible cam failures or insure themselves against poor engine builders

OP is saying the cams were used and had scoring, so there is a good chance that nothing really happened

given the failure numbers with the old cast gsc cams, and the condition they are in I would not run them in the first place, especially used scored ones, but I am super paranoid and anal when it comes to motor building, but perhaps the 'worst part" is behind and they will not degrade more
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:50 PM   #11
dev6565
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That is true, the manufacturer has to protect themselves when at all possible considering the amount of uninformed builders there are that just slap the motors together. Op of you have not noticed any reduction in performance or failure of the cam journal or lobe it probably makes sense to just run them and hope all is good. If you are really worried about their condition and are uncomfortable then you already know that the answer is to bite the bullet and replace them.
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Old 09-16-2018, 08:49 PM   #12
remski
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Yes.. I have somewhat uneasy feeling about running them.
Considering that this is a track car..

Yeah.. makes no sense risking it..

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by dev6565 View Post
That is true, the manufacturer has to protect themselves when at all possible considering the amount of uninformed builders there are that just slap the motors together. Op of you have not noticed any reduction in performance or failure of the cam journal or lobe it probably makes sense to just run them and hope all is good. If you are really worried about their condition and are uncomfortable then you already know that the answer is to bite the bullet and replace them.
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Old 09-23-2018, 06:55 PM   #13
jigga
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Did you change to a different viscosity/brand oil following the rebuild?

What oil filter were you running?

Did you by any chance cut your oil filter apart to inspect it for anything unusual? Debris? deformed filter elements? (which could negatively affect oil pressure and hence oiling in the heads?)
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:03 AM   #14
remski
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I run some 10W30 cheapo for the initial "flush".
Oil was changed after about 30-60min of run time.
Didn't cut the filter.

Now I have 20W50 STP non syntetic.
Both times Subaru blue filter was uses.

I dont think there are any oil pressure issues.
About 90-100psi cold and with idle at 800-900 never dropped below 30psi.

I've moved the idle to 1000 now.
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