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Old 05-12-2004, 04:06 PM   #1
Macabre
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Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sacramento, CA
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
UTEC+VF22+WI

Default Good on the street - det on the dyno: New IC time?

I road tuned my setup to be nice and det free (at least as far as the UTEC was capable of detecting), but on the dyno it was detonating like crazy, and even pulling a degree of timing and adding a bunch of fuel on top of the det free road tuned map didn't get rid of all of it. After letting the car sit and adding some fuel I was able to get a decent run, but still didn't make great horsepower. My first assumption is that the stock TMIC is just heatsoaking very quickly on the dyno with just a fan on it vs. 80mph+ of airflow on the street, and the great guys at S-Squared seemed to agree. It also hits more boost, longer, on the dyno, but boost readings where somewhat inconsistent at the top end, which has me thinking of possible boost/exhaust leaks as well, but I suspect it's just a symptom of the timing being pulled when detecting det. Any other potential causes I might be overlooking before I blow a bunch of money? I'm also weighing water injection options but don't really want to go off on that tangent here..

VF22, UTEC, catless TBE, uppipe, modded stock injectors, gruppe-s headers, walbro, 91 octane pump fuel (bleh), rich AFRs, STI V8 bypass valve, Mustang dyno ..

Here's a log of one of the average runs after adding a bit of fuel (initial runs were worse, but same general idea):

Code:
[12:00:33.203]  3557 +10.8 3.5 101  60    00   rich +19.7   27.8 +14.0  +2.6 400.00 2.9  12.00  11.57
[12:00:33.413]  3635 +12.1 3.6 102  70    00   rich +19.6   29.3 +14.0  +3.1 400.00 3.0  11.33  11.19  11.14
[12:00:33.603]  3736 +13.3 3.6 101  70    00   rich +15.5   33.8 +14.0  +3.1 400.00 3.1  10.91  10.95
[12:00:33.814]  3800 +14.7 3.7 101  80    01   rich +12.8   37.5  +5.5  +3.2 405.00 3.2  10.82  10.58  10.51
[12:00:34.004]  3944 +15.9 3.9 101  80    00   rich +12.9   39.3  +5.5  +3.2 405.00 3.2  10.39  10.29
[12:00:34.214]  4001 +17.2 3.9 101  90    00   rich +12.0   44.1  +5.0  +3.3 410.00 3.2  10.23  10.20
[12:00:34.405]  4055 +18.2 3.9 101  90    00   rich +11.6   45.5  +5.0  +3.3 410.00 3.2  10.05  10.11  10.10
[12:00:34.615]  4182 +19.0 3.9 101 100    00   rich +12.4   45.0 +13.0  +3.3 410.00 3.3  10.10  10.22
[12:00:34.805]  4257 +19.8 3.8 100 100    00   rich +16.3   45.2 +13.0  +3.2 415.00 3.3  10.23  10.26  10.20
[12:00:35.016]  4357 +20.0 4.0 101 100    00   rich +16.1   46.7 +13.0  +3.2 415.00 3.3  10.25  10.38
[12:00:35.206]  4492 +19.8 4.0 101  90    00   rich +15.0   47.8 +13.0  +3.3 415.00 3.4  10.32  10.41  10.41
[12:00:35.416]  4623 +19.8 4.0 101  90    00   rich +15.0   49.4 +11.2  +3.1 420.00 3.4  10.33  10.33
[12:00:35.606]  4623 +19.6 4.1 102  90    01   rich +14.4   51.7  +5.2  +3.1 420.00 3.4  10.17  10.19  10.19
[12:00:35.817]  4694 +19.6 4.1 101 100    00   rich +14.3   52.4  +5.3  +2.8 420.00 3.4  10.25  10.17
[12:00:36.007]  4803 +20.2 4.2 101 100    00   rich +15.4   53.9  +5.5  +2.5 420.00 3.4  10.19  10.19  10.01
[12:00:36.217]  4880 +20.6 4.1 101 100    00   rich +18.7   51.1 +13.7  +1.0 420.00 3.4  10.08  10.23
[12:00:36.408]  4930 +20.6 4.1 101 100    00   rich +21.1   52.4 +13.9  +0.2 420.00 3.3  10.33  10.44  10.41
[12:00:36.618]  5073 +20.6 4.2 101 100    00   rich +25.1   52.9 +14.0  +0.5 420.00 3.4  10.54  10.50
[12:00:36.808]  5151 +19.8 4.2 101  90    00   rich +25.8   56.7 +14.0  +1.4 420.00 3.4  10.38  10.32
[12:00:37.018]  5257 +19.4 4.2 101  90    00   rich +27.1   56.1 +14.3  +1.4 420.00 3.4  10.25  10.28  10.17
[12:00:37.209]  5333 +18.8 4.2 101  90    00   rich +27.4   57.3 +14.4  +1.4 420.00 3.4  10.19  10.25
[12:00:37.419]  5411 +18.8 4.3 102  90    00   rich +27.7   58.4 +14.7  +1.4 420.00 3.4  10.26  10.28  10.28
[12:00:37.609]  5518 +19.4 4.3 101 100    00   rich +27.8   59.4 +15.2  +1.4 425.00 3.5  10.53  10.30
[12:00:37.810]  5630 +19.4 4.3 101 100    00   rich +28.3   58.8 +15.5  +1.4 425.00 3.4  10.30  10.36  10.38
[12:00:38.010]  5698 +19.4 4.3 101  90    00   rich +28.3   60.8 +15.6  +1.4 425.00 3.5  10.29  10.33
[12:00:38.210]  5797 +18.4 4.3 101  80    00   rich +29.3   59.6 +16.3  +1.3 425.00 3.5  10.19  10.29
[12:00:38.410]  5837 +18.0 4.3 101  80    00   rich +29.4   59.6 +16.4  +1.3 425.00 3.5  10.28  10.38  10.38
[12:00:38.611]  5931 +17.2 4.3 101  80    03   rich +29.1   60.1  +8.5  +1.3 425.00 3.5  10.41  10.35
[12:00:38.811]  5995 +17.4 4.3 101  80    00   rich +29.4   59.6  +9.0  +1.3 430.00 3.5  10.36  10.39  10.35
[12:00:39.011]  6116 +18.2 4.3 101  90    00   rich +29.4   61.5 +17.6  +1.4 430.00 3.5  10.28  10.25
[12:00:39.202]  6049 +18.0 4.3 101  90    09   rich +30.7   60.9  +9.6  +1.4 430.00 3.5  10.30  10.29  10.29
[12:00:39.412]  6301 +18.4 4.3 101  90    00   rich +30.8   61.8 +10.6  +1.4 435.00 3.5  10.22  10.35
[12:00:39.602]  6195 +18.4 4.3 101  90    00   rich +30.6   62.1 +10.6  +1.4 435.00 3.5  10.33  10.94
[12:00:39.812]  6349 +17.2 4.3 100  80    02   rich +33.0   61.2 +10.8  +1.3 435.00 3.5  10.25  10.36  10.33
[12:00:40.003]  6385 +17.0 4.3 101  80    00   rich +33.4   61.5 +11.2  +1.3 435.00 3.5  10.32  10.39
[12:00:40.213]  6472 +16.6 4.3 101  80    00   rich +33.4   61.9 +19.6  +1.3 435.00 3.5  10.28  10.42  10.29
[12:00:40.403]  6472 +16.4 4.3 101  80    08   rich +33.6   63.4  +3.7  +1.3 435.00 3.5  10.44  10.44
[12:00:40.614]  6397 +17.0 4.4 101  90    00   rich +33.4   64.8  +3.9  +1.4 435.00 3.5  10.33  10.33  10.22
[12:00:40.804]  6600 +17.0 4.3 101  80    01   rich +33.8   62.3  +4.1  +1.3 440.00 3.5  10.28  10.32
[12:00:41.014]  6510 +17.0 4.4 101  80    01   rich +33.9   63.1  +3.3  +1.3 LCM.   3.5  10.33  11.11  37.66
Thanks in advance.
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Last edited by Macabre; 05-12-2004 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 05-12-2004, 06:27 PM   #2
Eggas
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<~~~~~~~ Really wishes he knew what that meant...
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Old 05-12-2004, 10:29 PM   #3
Blennophobic
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Default

I'm soon putting together a similar setup with an SR-30 and stock TMIC for now. My research on this board tells me that is a lot of boost for 91 gas. I was thinking my map would target 18psi max on 91 oct until I get a bigger TMIC or add water injection (leaning toward WI). I suggest you back off a bit on boost for now. How much whp are you making btw?

Since you are using modded injectors, did you have them flow tested before installation? One low flowing injector could be running a cylinder a lot leaner than the others and still show a good average A/F ratio.
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Old 05-12-2004, 11:03 PM   #4
Macabre
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Default

I don't want to go into how much horsepower it made because I don't want that to cause a tangent in this thread, but not as much as I would have liked . I will say that at 20psi, it was only peaking at 211 wheel lb-ft on this Mustang. I believe "a lot of boost" is relative to the turbocharger that's producing it, and I'm getting det even when it trails off down to 17psi. The reason I'm leaning towards the IC is that this map wasn't getting any det when road tuning even in higher gears than were used for the dyno runs (3rd was used on the dyno). I did not have the injectors flow tested. FWIW, my EGT's are pretty cool at WOT/redline (~1400F).. of course if your theory is correct that only rules out a problem in the cylinder I've got the EGT probe reading.
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Old 05-13-2004, 04:49 PM   #5
mrubino83
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Macabre,

How much power did you put down on the dyno?

Anyway heres the problem I faced when having my car dyno tuned...The first tyme I had it tuned the tuner tuned it with the hood open. Whn I got the car back I ws detonating all the way home. So I called the place where I had it done (XS-engineering) and they said to bring t back and they would retune it at no extra cost. What we discovered is that when running a TMIC (upgraded or not) that it is best to tune the car with the hood closed.

On the second tune (w/ hood closed) we noticed that intake temps almost doubled from the open hood runs. We ended up pulling 2-3 degrees of timing up top to get rid of the knock, and that did the trick. End result was 265whp on 18psi and 91octane.
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Old 05-13-2004, 09:18 PM   #6
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Next time, get a bag of crushed ice from 7-11. Pour it on the TMIC. Works like a charm. Watch out for puddles!
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Old 05-13-2004, 09:20 PM   #7
mrubino83
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But if you ice the IC before a dyno run, you will be running cooler than normal driving conditions. IMO, thats just asking for detonation later down the the line.

But on the other hand, it prob. would be good for getting rid of heat soak between pulls.
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Old 05-13-2004, 09:46 PM   #8
Macabre
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrubino83
Anyway heres the problem I faced when having my car dyno tuned...The first tyme I had it tuned the tuner tuned it with the hood open. Whn I got the car back I ws detonating all the way home. So I called the place where I had it done (XS-engineering) and they said to bring t back and they would retune it at no extra cost. What we discovered is that when running a TMIC (upgraded or not) that it is best to tune the car with the hood closed.
Well I've got the opposite problem.. I tune on the street, but on the dyno I got det. I was only using the dyno to give me a reference point, not for tuning, so I just want to be able to use my road tune map without det... They did the runs with the hood up and a fan sitting on the TMIC. I don't see any det on the road. I wouldn't worry about it except I'm convincing myself that the poor results on the dyno are a symptom of being under-intercooled.
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