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Old 10-23-2020, 08:30 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default SUVs targeted by new weight tax in France

SUVs targeted by new weight tax in France

France’s environment minister has announced a new car weight tax designed to encourage manufacturers to reduce CO2 emissions

SUVs registered in France will face a new weight tax, designed to get manufacturers to cut down on CO2 emissions.

Announced by the country’s environment minister Barbara Pompili, the scheme will see cars weighing more than 1,800kg taxed at a rate of €10 (around £9.14) for every additional kilogram, according to national news agency France 24.

Pompili tweeted: “The weight tax that we're creating sends a strong and necessary message to take into account the environmental impact of the heaviest vehicles. The heavier cars get, the more materials and energy they consume, with more pollution.”

The new tax will be introduced in the 2021 French budget and will not apply to electric cars. The best-selling SUVs from French brands such as Peugeot and Renault weigh less than 1,800kg, but larger luxury models from German brands like Mercedes and Audi will be affected.

The cars with the highest CO2 emissions already face levies of up to €20,000 (around £18,267) in France. Despite this, the country has seen a slowdown in its reduction of CO2 emissions, with large SUVs taking the blame.

The WWF (Worldwide Fund for Nature) claims SUVs were the second-largest source of greenhouse gas increases in France between 2008 and 2018, with the airline industry the biggest. It’s also true, however, that sales of SUVs in Europe have increased dramatically over that time, mostly at the expense of other types of car.

According to France 24, WWF said: “The 4.3 million sold in France in that decade have the same carbon footprint as 25 million electric compact cars.”

A French Government source told AFP (Agence France-Presse) that the weight tax “is meant to encourage people to avoid very large and heavy models, but also to encourage the industry to take its entire ecological footprint into account and not just emissions”.
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Old 10-23-2020, 08:50 AM   #2
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Pompili tweeted: “The weight tax that we're creating sends a strong and necessary message to take into account the environmental impact of the heaviest vehicles. The heavier cars get, the more materials and energy they consume, with more pollution.”
FALSE! production/manufacture of lighter materials consumes more energy than that of heavier materials for a given class and safety rating.

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According to France 24, WWF said: “The 4.3 million sold in France in that decade have the same carbon footprint as 25 million electric compact cars.”
Oh I will blindly trust these numbers...

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A French Government source told AFP (Agence France-Presse) that the weight tax “is meant to encourage people to avoid very large and heavy models, but also to encourage the industry to take its entire ecological footprint into account and not just emissions”.
[/quote]

and yet, EV's are some of the heaviest vehicles in a given class.

France won't be happy until everyone rides bicycles as their main means of transportation.
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Old 10-23-2020, 09:56 AM   #3
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I think the model 3 max weight (dual motor, long range is like 4000lbs. Not exactly the lightest car either.

France has always seemed to make rather silly policy and not go after hard issues in their country. Kinda like Derpafornia.
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:31 PM   #4
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I think the model 3 max weight (dual motor, long range is like 4000lbs. Not exactly the lightest car either.

France has always seemed to make rather silly policy and not go after hard issues in their country. Kinda like Derpafornia.
France is not an oil producer; their energy policy has been centered around nuclear power plants starting in the 60s.
Paying for oil coming from other countries to power vehicles makes no economic sense when you have a pretty good power grid.
These policies are not new; again, been trending that way since the 60s when a couple of oil producing countries demonstrated they could strangle entire economies if they wanted to...
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:01 PM   #5
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France won't be happy until everyone rides bicycles as their main means of transportation.
You seem very critical of France's transportation goals. Do you have a personal connection with France? Family? Personal?
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:09 PM   #6
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Reason aside, we all complain about heavy vehicles so if this is the kick in the pants needed to bring down the cost of alternative materials like cf I say why not. I remember when cf was to be the “it” material, but no one did anything to make it more affordable so now it’s just a luxury...

Even if we’re just talking about more aluminum use, would be nice to have an aluminum car I don’t need to rustproof, and saves me gas money because it’s light.

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FALSE! production/manufacture of lighter materials consumes more energy than that of heavier materials for a given class and safety rating.
I’ve read that too about carbon fibre. But for something like CF, it doesn’t corrode and deteriorate like steel. It doesn’t need to be replaced or repaired unless it’s been in an accident.

That upfront dirtyness might be worth the total lifecycle benefit. But I haven’t seen anything that studied that, or overall gas savings because it’s super light. Not sure how much of an impact that plays into it being clean or dirty overall...

Anyway, dirty or clean, I just want lighter vehicles! there’s no push for it anywhere though.

Last edited by littledrummerboy; 10-23-2020 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:11 PM   #7
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You seem very critical of France's transportation goals. Do you have a personal connection with France? Family? Personal?
None of that, I just realize that although I live in the U.S.A., a nations policy actions have global repercussions. France is one of the leading countries pushing the electric vehicle political agenda regardless of what environmental impact it has.

This means PSA group will be urged against their will to pursue an all electric future, and any manufacturers that wants to do business in France, or other European countries with similar policies, will also be required to pursue electric.

What it means for consumers is not only less choice in the marketplace, but only more expensive choices when buying a vehicle due to the increased upfront cost of an electric over an ICE.

Not to mention that the EDF is controlled by the French government @ 85% of shares being in their hand.
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:34 PM   #8
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Guess they don't want their national white flags discolored by pollution..
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:44 PM   #9
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None of that, I just realize that although I live in the U.S.A., a nations policy actions have global repercussions. France is one of the leading countries pushing the electric vehicle political agenda regardless of what environmental impact it has.

This means PSA group will be urged against their will to pursue an all electric future, and any manufacturers that wants to do business in France, or other European countries with similar policies, will also be required to pursue electric.

What it means for consumers is not only less choice in the marketplace, but only more expensive choices when buying a vehicle due to the increased upfront cost of an electric over an ICE.

Not to mention that the EDF is controlled by the French government @ 85% of shares being in their hand.
I understand where you're coming from.
But, France has always controlled most of its utility companies, it's not a new concept to people living in France, and the vast majority of French people are OK with that.
Remember that 80% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power plants; they have 19 active nuclear power plants (close to 60 reactors in total). Traditionally, people in France don't really trust the private sector with the power grid.
Their view is that, when it comes to nuclear power plants, you can't really trust private companies to do things the right way without cutting corners in a bid to try and make more money.
It doesn't mean the French government is perfect (far from it), but it's about picking the lesser of 2 evils, maybe.
I don't necessarily agree with all of it; I'm just trying to describe the mindset over there.

I also agree with you about the impact of these policies on ICE powered cars; it's killing them, pure and simple.
The existing gas guzzler tax in France, linked to WLTP cycle figures, is already ridiculously expensive.
Anything above 184 g/km of CO2 gets the maximum 20K Euros tax: Civic Type R gets hammered, that Yaris GR we all like? Hammered.
PSA has started to kill off cars like its Peugeot 308 hot hatch because the CO2 tax.
Sporty ICE cars are getting killed fast over there.

Sorry for long post
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:49 PM   #10
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None of that, I just realize that although I live in the U.S.A., a nations policy actions have global repercussions.
Understood. Not sure I agree with the other leaps in logic you've made though.

Their transportation requirements are also much different than ours. Higher density, smaller roads, older infrastructure, etc... a 4,000 lb car in France is likely not as common a sight as it is here in the US.
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Old 10-23-2020, 02:15 PM   #11
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I understand where you're coming from.
But, France has always controlled most of its utility companies, it's not a new concept to people living in France, and the vast majority of French people are OK with that.
Remember that 80% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power plants; they have 19 active nuclear power plants (close to 60 reactors in total). Traditionally, people in France don't really trust the private sector with the power grid.
Their view is that, when it comes to nuclear power plants, you can't really trust private companies to do things the right way without cutting corners in a bid to try and make more money.
It doesn't mean the French government is perfect (far from it), but it's about picking the lesser of 2 evils, maybe.
I don't necessarily agree with all of it; I'm just trying to describe the mindset over there.

I also agree with you about the impact of these policies on ICE powered cars; it's killing them, pure and simple.
The existing gas guzzler tax in France, linked to WLTP cycle figures, is already ridiculously expensive.
Anything above 184 g/km of CO2 gets the maximum 20K Euros tax: Civic Type R gets hammered, that Yaris GR we all like? Hammered.
PSA has started to kill off cars like its Peugeot 308 hot hatch because the CO2 tax.
Sporty ICE cars are getting killed fast over there.

Sorry for long post
The comment about the French government controlling electrical power wasn't just about them controlling electrical power, it was about the combination of how they are now dictating through policy that citizens will now get not only the electricity for their homes from the government, but also the electricity that powers their mode of transportation (in place of gasoline); I didn't even mention that the French government has a ~14% stake in PSA.
It's one thing for a government to regulate a utility, another thing for a government to control it, and yet another thing entirely to impose it's use & dependency on it's people through policy.
Next France will restructure the law to impose an import tax on foreign EV's, so that PSA group is the only manufacturer that can compete within the country; like the chicken tax, but worse.
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Old 10-23-2020, 02:20 PM   #12
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Understood. Not sure I agree with the other leaps in logic you've made though.

Their transportation requirements are also much different than ours. Higher density, smaller roads, older infrastructure, etc... a 4,000 lb car in France is likely not as common a sight as it is here in the US.
And, ultimately, France is tired of constantly buying oil to burn in cars; they rather use oil for their other industries.
That's the bottom line; it's as much a financial motivation as it is a concern for the environment.
They have a solid power grid and, even if environmentalists in France would like to see France rely less on nuclear power, the reality is that the French government is building new power plants to replace some of the old ones.
The other 20% of the power comes mostly from hydro-electric plants, which is OK.
When I was living in Paris (studied there for 2 years), I talked to classmates about power outages, brownouts and having no water for half a day back home, they looked at me like I was . These guys had never experienced a single outage in nearly 20 years.
It just doesn't happen in Paris or in France in general; it's pretty rare (sure, some equipment in a substation can go bad, a frozen electric line can break during winter and so on).
In fact, COVID-19 caused the first few power outages in a long while as people working in some of the nuclear plants got sick and could not safely operate them.
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Old 10-23-2020, 02:38 PM   #13
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And, ultimately, France is tired of constantly buying oil to burn in cars; they rather use oil for their other industries.
That's the bottom line; it's as much a financial motivation as it is a concern for the environment.
They have a solid power grid and, even if environmentalists in France would like to see France rely less on nuclear power, the reality is that the French government is building new power plants to replace some of the old ones.
The other 20% of the power comes mostly from hydro-electric plants, which is OK.
When I was living in Paris (studied there for 2 years), I talked to classmates about power outages, brownouts and having no water for half a day back home, they looked at me like I was . These guys had never experienced a single outage in nearly 20 years.
It just doesn't happen in Paris or in France in general; it's pretty rare (sure, some equipment in a substation can go bad, a frozen electric line can break during winter and so on).
In fact, COVID-19 caused the first few power outages in a long while as people working in some of the nuclear plants got sick and could not safely operate them.
Yeah, I am pro market competition but utilities are an area that make a lot of sense as a subset of goverment.

The whole competition idea falls apart if there is no competion due to barrier of entry.
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Old 10-23-2020, 02:43 PM   #14
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The comment about the French government controlling electrical power wasn't just about them controlling electrical power, it was about the combination of how they are now dictating through policy that citizens will now get not only the electricity for their homes from the government, but also the electricity that powers their mode of transportation (in place of gasoline); I didn't even mention that the French government has a ~14% stake in PSA.
It's one thing for a government to regulate a utility, another thing for a government to control it, and yet another thing entirely to impose it's use & dependency on it's people through policy.
Next France will restructure the law to impose an import tax on foreign EV's, so that PSA group is the only manufacturer that can compete within the country; like the chicken tax, but worse.
Yes, the French government as also a stake in Renault; again, not new things to French people. And, as I said, widely accepted as well.
It may look strange (or even ominous) to you, but that's how France worked for a long time.
It was worst before, France used to own:
- Renault at nearly 100% for a long ass time after WWII
- EDF (electricity) and GDF (city gas), also 100%
- the postal service and the only telco company at 100%
- Air France: 100%
- SNCF, railway and trains and so on: 100%
- most hospitals: 100%
- the list went on... can't remember all of it now

Just saying. And you guys think California is socialist
They got nothing on France

More seriously, thankfully, over the years, the European Union has tempered some of the French government most aggressive policies which forced France to let go of most of its stakes.
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Old 10-23-2020, 04:24 PM   #15
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France is not an oil producer; their energy policy has been centered around nuclear power plants starting in the 60s.
Paying for oil coming from other countries to power vehicles makes no economic sense when you have a pretty good power grid.
These policies are not new; again, been trending that way since the 60s when a couple of oil producing countries demonstrated they could strangle entire economies if they wanted to...
I missed the sentence saying it would not apply to electric cars.

My bad.
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Old 10-23-2020, 05:08 PM   #16
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I missed the sentence saying it would not apply to electric cars.

My bad.
No worries. It's good we can discuss these things, hash it out, compare and contrast with what is going on here.
It brings perspective, IMO. We really don't have it too bad over here, even in California .
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Old 10-23-2020, 05:33 PM   #17
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No worries. It's good we can discuss these things, hash it out, compare and contrast with what is going on here.
It brings perspective, IMO. We really don't have it too bad over here, even in California .
I'm gonna have to disagree with the California comment. Taxes upon taxes and then taxes on the taxes you were already taxed.

As much as I loved living in San Diego, I don't see myself going back. If I won the lottery, I'd buy a "vacation home" there but have my primary home be somewhere else.
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Old 10-23-2020, 08:42 PM   #18
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I'm gonna have to disagree with the California comment. Taxes upon taxes and then taxes on the taxes you were already taxed.

As much as I loved living in San Diego, I don't see myself going back. If I won the lottery, I'd buy a "vacation home" there but have my primary home be somewhere else.
Well, things definitely got worse on the tax front since the 2018 tax code kicked in (local tax deductions capped to $10K is ).
But, I'm in the tech / "entertainment" industry, after weighing salary vs cost of living, I'm still coming out ahead living in Cali.
I will reassess if things change for the worse; but, for now, I'll stay put.
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Old 10-24-2020, 12:13 AM   #19
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Well, things definitely got worse on the tax front since the 2018 tax code kicked in (local tax deductions capped to $10K is ).
But, I'm in the tech / "entertainment" industry, after weighing salary vs cost of living, I'm still coming out ahead living in Cali.
I will reassess if things change for the worse; but, for now, I'll stay put.
Don’t get me wrong, I was and still do make a solid income. But I just see the state slipping faster and faster and not just in the cost of living realm.
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