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Old 08-06-2003, 10:37 AM   #76
CirrusWRX
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Nightprowler and I have been working on the performance figures over the past couple of days. I'm not one to jump to conclusions, but at this time, I must admit that I'm not totally sure what's going on yet. In discussion with Nightprowler, we have been using the 4th and 5th gear "acceleration" tests, as he has mentioned, simply because it removes the element of shifting, is quite a natural way to test HP improvement, isn't "that" illegal, and can be performed very easily.

Upon doing some testing, I too have found that my initial "gut and butt" instincts were somewhat flawed. Most importantly, what I need from people are some times for the following scenarios on a STOCK WRX:

1. 4th gear - pull from 40mph-60mph
2. 4th gear - pull from 50-70mph
3. 5th gear - pull from 50-70mph

In looking at the performance stats from the Prodrive UK website on the PPP for the 03WRX (which I presume to believe should yield the same setup for a PPP stage 2 in the US) neither Nightprowler or I are seeing results even close to what the website is indicating, and for that matter, the numbers they are posting for a stock WRX are what we ARE seeing. With this in mind, there are obvious hurdles. Finding a place to do the testing (must be flat!), wind, inaccuracies of our hand on a stopwatch while driving, weight of the car/fuel, altitude, natural discrpencies, etc... But with all of these factors built in, the problem that we are having is not .5sec -- we're talking like 1-3 seconds off. My 5th gear pull with my PPP from 50-70 is taking anywhere from 10.5x-12.xx -- on the UK site it's claiming 7.xx!

Now I have all the gauges, and I can tell this car is certainly different with the ECU -- boost comes on much earlier, and stays longer, and goes higher. I regularly see 15-16psi, and that's great... except I question whether or not the car is pulling timing, simply due to this fact:
I have an HKS Type II turbo timer -- this allows me the ability to track speed+RPM electronically, as it's hooked into my ECU. Since I installed it last December, I have made MANY 1/8th mile (safest for me to do in my area) on the same street. It's as flat as a public street could be, and I typically do it late at night on the way home. I pass by a bank with a clock+digi. thermometer outside, so I always know the temp before I make my run. I ALWAYS do it the same way, and I am extremely gentle on my launches -- I'm not looking to get a "good time" - rather, I'm looking to benchmark. And that's all it is for me - a benchmark. My TT may not be accurate to real life, but that's not important - what IS important is the following:

(note: some of these #'s are from memory as my document where I log these runs is unavailable right now...)
1. Pre-PPPstage2 ECU, my car had a best time of 9.42 @ 75mph - this was with 94 octane, 1/8th tank, me in the car, 70 degrees, medium humidty. My average (with various mods. incl. muffler, IC hoses, lightweight pulley, etc...) is around a 9.65 @ 73.5mph

2. Post-PPPStage2 ECU, I have YET to break 71mph trap speed. I have yet to be able to break a 9.89 for my best ET. I have no clue why this is happening. I have been making the run the same way for months, and my averages were all relatively close. But now, with the new ECU, I can't even break 71mph -- even with a margin of error, there is still 4mph missing and almost 5 seconds difference between my best ever run-- and almost 3 seconds off my overall PRE-stage2ECU average!

Again, I'm not one to jump to conclusions, but something's not right for me. Initially, I went with my gut instinct, but after some testing, I'm not so sure. I tried resetting the ECU, and I tried the "shiv reset IAM" thing where you hold it @2500RPM with 2-4psi of boost for 5+ seconds-- nothing. If anything, my results were slightly negative, which CAN be a good thing-- maybe my ECU WAS learning, and I killed whatever it learned by resetting. I've been driving pretty hard these past few days once the car is warmed up, and I ALWAYS use Sunoco Ultra 94 octane. It has been slightly humid, but I'm still curious if it is "supposed" to take this long for the ECU to learn. Undoubtedly, the boost is up, but if timing is being pulled because of it, then there could be a net gain of 0, or even a net loss.

I want another tank or two of gas before I'm ready to make any concrete decisions on this matter, and anybody with a stock car who is able to assist by providing me those #'s above, would be greatly appreciated. And anybody with a Stg 2 currently installed, please do the same. Hopefully, the ECU's are just very cautious in learning and I (we) will soon see the improvements that we were hoping for.

that's all for now!
Kyle
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Old 08-08-2003, 01:13 AM   #77
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Question PPP stage 2

To cirruswrx & nightprowler:

Ok you have made me curious about performance so I ordered the Passport Gtimer from the makers of Escort/Passport radar detectors. It will measure 0-60 or any config in that matter, 1/4 mile, peak and average HP, braking and gforce. I should have it by Monday. Check out there website Gtimer.com for more info. It will eliminate human error with a stopwatch. By the way the results you are comparing to from the U.K. Prodrive website are not going to be accurate to the U.S. WRX's. They have different kits, ECU's, limited emissions, octane. Prodrive doesn't even have a stage 3 in the U.K. With all this in mind the stock (U.S.) WRX does 0-60 in about 5.4 to 5.7 and quarter mile about 14.1 to 14.5 depending on which magazine article you read. Those are the figures to compare to. The posted U.K. ones have to many variables from U.S. to U.K. Yes the kit definitely feels faster, very smooth and so far flawless in my opinion. If the results aren't there after a few runs I will agree with you guys. Given that the stage 2 kit nets about an additional 40+- hp and the only true test is on a dyno or track I will take Passport up on it's 30 day money back guarantee
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Old 08-08-2003, 02:11 AM   #78
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Try to report soon!
I got one on order.
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Old 08-08-2003, 04:36 AM   #79
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Awesome - thanks my03-- Anxiously awaiting your results. You know what you could do that would be awesome? Find a buddy with a stock WRX and run your little gizmo back to back. Again, the 0-60 and 1/4 miles are nice, but I too agree that something that eliminates driver ability is a good way to judge performacne increases. And from what I've read about those little boxes, when set up properly, they are amazingly accurate when it comes to figuring out HP #'s, so I am very interested in your findings.

But I do want to know your thoughts why you think the UK #'s are going to be inaccurate? You see, I have in my hot little hands Top Gear magazine from July 2003 (purchased it when I was in Germany). And they review the Subaru Impreza WRX Prodrive Estate (wagon). The standard UK WRX is 221bhp, while the "Prodrive Performance Pack option [insert: what I'm assuming is the US PPP2], when fitted, after vehicle registration, boosts peak power to 261bhp." They make a 0-60mph claim of 4.8sec, and 0-100mph of 14.1sec. Stock is 5.8 and 15.1 seconds (according to Top Gear).

The only other mention other than the IC hoses and muffler is the ECU - and the way Euro emissions are now-adays, I would venture a guess it still has the "3rd" cat in place (although it may be missing an uppipe cat, I'm not sure on that.) So with my 94 octane gasoline, and their standard fare 17" UK wheels, I should be seeing similar times -- I ain't! Of course, I can't do 0-100mph on public streets, which is why I do the various 40-60 and 50-70mph tests, as, quite frankly, they should be practically identical-- same car, same components, same supposed HP to our PPP's. And like I said, small discrepancies are cool with me, but when we're talking several SECONDS difference in the 4th and 5th gear pulls, that leads me to believe something is amiss.

But again, I'm really anxious to hear your results, and I am also hoping some kind 'stock' WRXer can provide us with some more data, or hope that somebody can point me in the right direction to this data!

note- I'm going away for the weekend, but will probably post if I can and check in on this thread. I haven't had a chance to do any more testing since posting last time, but I hope to do a lot more 4th and 5th gear pulls on my trip from PA to NC in hopes that the ECU is getting more aggressive and learning like a well-behaved little ECU should!
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Old 08-11-2003, 04:50 PM   #80
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Has anyone smog'd (esp. in CA) their stage 2 or 3 yet? Even if they did a 'test' and not an official smog? I'm between the purchase of stage 2 or stage 3.
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Old 08-11-2003, 06:07 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6Pack
Has anyone smog'd (esp. in CA) their stage 2 or 3 yet? Even if they did a 'test' and not an official smog? I'm between the purchase of stage 2 or stage 3.
Good question.

I live in CA as well so we are in a similar boat.

I believe that CA has a visual part of the smog test as well as the sniffer test. Even if the Prodrive Stage 3 can pass the sniffer (which it may very well - there have been reports of some cars passing with only one fast flow cat. Of course they haven't been in CA which has the toughest standards - so passing in Oklahoma doesn't mean you'll pass in CA) this doesn't mean you'll pass the visual. The downpipe looks sort of stock but does NOT have a CARB number on it as of yet. If they check you wont pass.

This is an issue for all of us CA drivers and one we should deal with. Since prodrive has been no help to us on this I have decided not to go with their kits.

I - as living in CA is definetly a factor - will go with a USDM STi upipipe, gutted factory downpipe (with the heat shileds in place - very stealthy AND needed to protect the IC - and the drawback of many aftermarket downpipes IMHO) to stock 3rd cat. Then Cobb Stage 2 reflash.

STi uppipe $271
gutted dp $50
Cobb Stage 2 $395

not bad for a very stealthy yet powerful car.
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Old 08-11-2003, 11:05 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by meisnerboy

I - as living in CA is definetly a factor - will go with a USDM STi upipipe, gutted factory downpipe (with the heat shileds in place - very stealthy AND needed to protect the IC - and the drawback of many aftermarket downpipes IMHO) to stock 3rd cat. Then Cobb Stage 2 reflash.

STi uppipe $271
gutted dp $50
Cobb Stage 2 $395

not bad for a very stealthy yet powerful car.
I agree about aftermarket downpipes making it hard to remain stealthy and retain the stock shields. I got the ScoobySport which isn't exactly stealthy, but I only had to cut off very little from the heat shield to make it work. Plus, I have the STi uppipe so I was able to re-use the lower heat shield bracket and just had 2 bolts left over. It looks very factory-like, but it doesn't help that there's this shiny gold pipe with welds all over it right after it!

Actually, I'm not too worried about passing smog. I'm pretty sure it can pass even here in CA with just the stock 3rd cat. There's this guy I've taken 2 cars to already and he doesn't even check for cats. I think I'll go to him when the time comes...hopefully he'll still be around then!
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Old 08-12-2003, 12:08 AM   #83
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I have some data, but nothing conrete yet. I also had to fill up 1 tank with 93 since there weren't any Sunoco's down south Waiting to blow through this tank before I go back to 94 on Wednesday (ultra 94 is 6 cents cheaper on a wed. special at my local station.)

Anxiously awaiting SOME results -- you stock people can do this too!!! (Or just direct me to the area where the numbers are already posted!)
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Old 08-12-2003, 10:13 PM   #84
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Arrow PPP stage 2

Just a little update. Received the G-timer last night. It's been raining most of today. Tried 1 run. Hp is not accurate. First run had a major bog only 6.55 0-60. Will do some more runs this week. Spoke with Mike at Subaruxtras.com. He said Simon from Prodrive is back in the U.S. for the next two months. They are going to extensively test the U.S. PPP kits for Hp, 0-60, 1/4 mile etc...; and post results. Since I suck at getting a decent launch; we will see how their results compare.
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Old 08-12-2003, 11:01 PM   #85
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Man i hope they were right the first time with the numbers for the packs. When I saw 230whp on the stage 3 I went for it. Hopefully it will be the same as when they first published the numbers.
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Old 08-13-2003, 08:45 AM   #86
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JJ26 & my03nywrx, I talked to Simon at Prodrive 8/11 and he indicated they will be testing the car within the week and are looking into the problem.

In the mean time I again encourage everyone to test the 50-70 mph acceleration in 4th and 5th gears and post your results. This simple testing eliminates driver variables of shifting and different launch techniques.
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Old 08-13-2003, 10:54 AM   #87
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Just for reference what I was able to obtain throughout the last few days. This is with some extensive driving on my car, on 94 octane (I'm leaving out the numbers when I had to put in a tank of 93...)

4th Gear Pull - 50-70mph - 1 person in the car, temps between 70 and 85 degrees, humidity ranging from 60-90%, normal altitude, and as flat as possible roads.

Best: 5.47 seconds
Worst: 6.70 seconds
Average: 5.58 seconds (Approx 10 pulls)


5th Gear Pull - 50-70mph
Best: 9.54 seconds
Worst: 12.42 seconds
Average 10.33 seconds (Approx 8 pulls)

I also do 1/8th mile testing, but I bog my launches on purpose as to not cause any unnecessary stress on the gearbox. My times are slow, and I'm perfectly happy with that, *BUT* I have run the same way EVERY TIME, and I have not even been able to get back to the original numbers I was seeing with my almost stock car.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Prior to PPP
1-25-02 – Temp 10 F, alone 3/5 tank of gas
9.4s 1/8 mile @ 77 mph

3-18-03 – Temp 48 F, alone 1/2 tank of gas
9.62 1/8 mile @75 mph

3-20-03 – Temp 28 F, alone 1/4 tank of gas
9.42 1/8 mile @76 mph

7-14-03 – Temp 72 F, Medium humidity, alone, full tank of gas
9.52 1/8 mile @75 mph
*Note* this was done with the PPP components, but no ECU
------------------------------------------
Post PPP with ECU
8-1-03 – Temp 85 F, VERY Humid, alone, full tank of gas
9.8 1/8 mile @ 72 mph

8-3-03 – Temp 77F, Very humid, alone, 4/5th tank of gas
9.89 1/8th mile @ 71mph

8-4-03 Temp 82F, Raining, 4/5th tank of gas
9.8 1/8 mile @71mph

8-8-03 Temp Temp 76F, medium humidity, alone, full tank of gas
9.82 1/8 mile @72 mph

I really don't have any idea what could be going on, but as NightProwler and I have been discussing in email, I have a boost gauge and I'm seeing a tremendous difference in the way the car drives, especially part throttle. I see a peak boost of maybe 15.5, possibly 16 very breifly, and a nice (safe) taper to redline. I see nearly 14-15psi in 1st and 2nd gear, and partial throttle will usually yield between 7-10psi. HOWEVER, I am curious whether or not the car is either:
1. Pulling timing
2. Does not have aggressive enough timing after re-programming

I run 94 octane all the time (*except for 1 tank of highway gas, which is now gone, and I never did any testing with it. I'm back to 94 as of today.) I can't believe I'm experiencing knock, and while I don't have a trained ear, not only do I not hear it, I just don't think with a conservatively tuned ECU and 94 octane, it'll happen. (Just my thoughts, of course) I tried the "Vishnu IAM" reset on the ECU, and it appeared to make no difference whatsoever. The ECU will properly switch between the "base" map and the "valet" map on 100% TPS, and turning the rear window defroster from OFF to ON. The valet map will only see a max of ~7psi, and it is very sluggish (like it should be!) So I know I can switch between the maps, and the differences are very noticeable.

So I'm thinking the boost went up, but the timing went down, and thus we either get a complete wash, or as my data has indicated to me, I actually have LESS power than before. Not sure if that's possible, or if there is something else at work, but that's what I see. Anxiously awaiting some more results from you guys! I also cannot imagine how the UK Prodrive car can have a 5th gear pull from 50-70mph that takes 10 seconds on a stock car (faster than my PPP) and then see 7 seconds -- when I do my testing, my turbo is hardly spooled in 5th gear until at least ~63 mph. Maybe the UK subaru's do not have an uppipe? Anybody know this for sure? And again, all timing inaccuracies aside, UK stock time of 10sec and my PPP AVERAGE of 10.43 is nowhere near 7 seconds.
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Old 08-13-2003, 07:52 PM   #88
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Man, I don't know about the rest of you guys but I am worried. I paid $2,500 for this pack (stage3). I could have went for something else and paid less. I went with Prodrive because of their rep. But this is very interesting. One thing I do know is that now I can shift from 2nd to 3rd at 65mph or so redlining when before it was just at 60mph. This is really concerning b/c I think that we are all seeing the same thing. Everyone, lets keep each other posted on whats going on, ok. Hopefuly in the end everything will be worked out.

Last edited by JJ26; 08-13-2003 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 08-13-2003, 08:01 PM   #89
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JJ - Good to know, and good to have a PPP3'er in on this too. Would you mind trying to perform some of our various "favorite" tests? Mainly the 4th and 5th gear pulls to see what you have compared to our results?
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Old 08-13-2003, 08:17 PM   #90
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Ok Cirrus, will do
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Old 08-13-2003, 09:07 PM   #91
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Default Re: PPP stage 2

Quote:
Originally posted by my03nywrx
Spoke with Mike at Subaruxtras.com. He said Simon from Prodrive is back in the U.S. for the next two months. They are going to extensively test the U.S. PPP kits for Hp, 0-60, 1/4 mile etc...; and post results.
You mean they haven't done that yet??

Extensive testing after the release of PPPs...hmmm
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Old 08-13-2003, 10:31 PM   #92
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Default Re: Re: PPP stage 2

Quote:
Originally posted by esteve


You mean they haven't done that yet??

Extensive testing after the release of PPPs...hmmm
I agree. What The ****???

Any real dyno sheets yet?

(But in truth the stage 3 will probably be about the same as a Cobb Stage 2 or a TXS stage 2 or a Vishnu Stage 1)

Here's another quesiton... Any warrante with these kits (not from SOA but from Prodrive?)
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Old 08-13-2003, 10:51 PM   #93
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Arrow PPP stage 2

Quote:
You mean they haven't done that yet??

Extensive testing after the release of PPPs...hmmm




Prodrive has done all their testing in the U.K. with U.K. cars/ECU's/gasoline etc.. This week will be the first U.S. test done with the PPPs. I do agree that these tests should have been done in the U.S. first. I'm pretty sure the U.K. WRX's don't have a cat in the uppipe which would make sense why they don't offer a stage 3 in the U.K. I'm not sure Prodrive expected their kits to sell this quickly in the U.S.; or that the U.S. consumers (such as us) to be so performance oriented. I agree with cirrus that I'm no longer going to beat up my drivetrain to try to match 0-60 or 1/4 mile times posted with their U.K. PPP cars. The best bogged launch I got 0-50 was 5.04 & 0-60 6.55(having to shift into 3 and wait for boost-up)85 degrees/70% humidity/flat road. Overall for the so called 40hp gained with the stage 2; I'm very happy(performance FEEL , looks & reliability) with my results. I will go with the stage 3 if Prodrive's anticipated test results are as good as they say they are(U.S. stage3 is supposed to stay side by side with the STI up to 106). We will see. I will try the 50-70 4th & 5th pulls just for giggles.
Anthony
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Old 08-13-2003, 11:42 PM   #94
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The Stage 3 is supposed to compete with the STi? I didn't know that. If so, thats great but I hope that all the ECU "problems" are a fluke and can be fixed.
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Old 08-14-2003, 01:21 PM   #95
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I currently have a rattle from my stock heatshield (long story) and decided now was the right time to look to replace the whole thing. I'm in between Vishnu and PPP, I'm going to try and wait a bit and see what results come out... hope I can wait long enough...
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Old 08-14-2003, 03:11 PM   #96
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I had the PPP stage 2 installed on my wagon yesterday, and got the following instructions from the Prodrive guy that actually flashed the ECU:

Do not use full throttle or exceed .5 bar boost until you have done the following:

In order to initialize the "advance multipier" for optimum performance, make a couple runs to redline (or near redline), in 3rd or 4th gear, holding boost at .5 bar (about 7 psi). The engine needs to be under load for this pull, so I would assume it could be done in 2nd going up a steep hill, but we didn't talk about that specifically. This should be done initially, and after every reset of the ECU.

I don''t have any empirical data yet, but the car feels way faster than before. Not just some, but a lot. The brakes and the tires feel pretty marginal all of a sudden.

Hope this helps.
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Old 08-14-2003, 03:19 PM   #97
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Probably has the same effect as the left foot brake method for 5 seconds. It won't hurt anything if you don't, but the ECU will take a few weeks to "safely" advance the multiplier and learn your style, so the increase in performance isn't immediately felt.
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Old 08-14-2003, 06:54 PM   #98
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I appreciate the suggestions from you guys and I will try it out, but I did the Vishnu "IAM" reset with the left foot brake thing between 3-5psi of boost. I was unaware it was supposed to go up to 7psi-- I will try that tonight.

*HOWEVER* I would also assume that after approximately 4 tanks of 94 octane and over 1000 miles of driving, the multiplier should be at its absolute highest. I have not seen a performance increase since the initial ECU reset I did several weeks ago. Could you also clarify what the Prodrive guy said to you on exactly what needs to be done 2Stroke?

Do I reset the ECU, turn the car on, and then stay out of boost, drive in 3rd gear and make a run up to redline and then I'm good?
Need a little more clarification if possible.

ALso, not doubting you-- maybe we're all "resetting" or "teaching" our ECU's incorrectly, but my car also felt very fast when I got the ECU installed -- only the stopwatch and my own original stuborness proved otherwise.

I also did another run last night - I have yet to break 72mph on my 1/8th mile run, and I averaged ~74mph prior to the PPP - I have yet to "regain" that power. If you could, please try out the tests that we've been talking about that don't require shifting-- specifically the 4th and 5th gear pulls -- 50-70mph. They're long enough that even some reflexes shouldn't play much of a part.

Hopefully you have the secret answer with the proper ECU reset procedure, and you just need to share it with us!!
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Old 08-14-2003, 08:12 PM   #99
jamesohoh7
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Default Ambient air temps?

Hi,

I don't have any PPP stuff (am thinking about a stage1 for my 2004 sedan.. do they have support for the '04 yet??).

However, just looking at whoever posted the test-data on their 1/8 mile runs.....

I notice that the air temps are like 30 to 50 degrees colder on your stock, faster runs.

That's a big temp difference. Note that your slowest 'stock' run was at like 72 deg-F and all of your recent runs were both hot and humid, and rain == 100% humidity.. argh! Even that (hottest-stock) run was colder than the coldest of the recent runs.

Nothing messes with a car's performance more than hot + humid... it's the worst of all possible worlds.

I'm not saying that this should account for -all- of whatever degradation you're seeing, but it surely is accounting for a chunk of it.

I'm brand-new to the WRX-scene (or sporting imports in general), but my old-school '69 Camaro would literally fall on it's face in 90+ degree heat (I live in south Texas), and would romp and stomp in the colder days of winter (50's are about as cold as it tends to get down here on average). We're talking like 2 or 3 tenths (or more... this was 15+ years ago.. memory fades, ya know ) faster on cold days (1/4-mile) and a few mph too.

I know it's not possible now, but you're better served comparing your numbers on similar-weather days.

I'm not trying to impugn your test results, neither am I trying to give you (false?) hope about the weather-effect... just pointing out something I noticed is all.

I'm still hoping to get a PPP stage 1 for my '04 if for no other reason than I think that down the road, a Prodrive kit will 'add' value to the car should I need to trade in or sell. Not to speak ill of the other fine tuner-shops, but for name-cache, Prodrive + Subaru == recognition. I don't write the rules of societal norms, I just follow 'em Further, the (still incomplete) test results show that dollars-to-hp, the PPP kits aren't terribly far off the rest, and if they lack ultimate power, that's fine by me b/c I have other go-VERY-fast vehicles should I need that fix... this WRX is my daily-driver. Admittedly, I have it different than others who only have the one car, so my preferences no doubt only make sense to me

Good luck in your tests/quest, please keep us all posted,

-James
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Old 08-14-2003, 11:24 PM   #100
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I've sent a link to this thread to the guy I talked to at prodrive.

I'm hoping he will respond directly so I won't have to relay a message that was given to me quickly, verbally, and as we were going our separate ways.

With that disclaimer in place, I distinctly remember that he used the following opening phrase: "If you want optimum performance"...

He interuppted himself to ask if I had a boost gauge, which I do.

He then told me that I should not use full throttle or let the boost rise above .5 bar until I had run the engine to redline holding exactly .5 bar for the whole run.

My take step by step:

1. Disconnect ecu from power for 30 minutes.

2. Reconnect power.

3. Start engine and drive gently to a place where you can run to 6000 RPM in 3rd or 4th gear. Gently means don't exceed .5 bar boost.

4. Accelerate gently thru first, short shift from 2nd to 3rd, and accelerate to 6000-7000 RPM while holding the boost level as close to .5 bar as possible. If you can do this twice, I think that's better, but I'm not sure.

It may be possible to use the valet mode to get .5 bar. That way you could just floor it. We didn't talk specifically about that, but it may be how to do it if you don't have a boost gauge.

Finally, because he said this to me a several times, I'll say it again here:

"You don't have to do this, but if you want optimum performance..."


Anyway, if the prodrive guy doesn't respond in a few days, I'll consider publishing his email address for all of us to abuse. <grin>
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