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Old 09-30-2014, 01:14 PM   #126
RexFTW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
I was just going to say, that's a really high 1/8th mile trap.
Yeah, I swapped out for the longer 5th and 6th as I plan on running the car in the mile so 5th hurts even more than it would have before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDagen View Post
Congrats! Car is a beast, awesome runs!
Thanks man! I need some more seat time with the slicks before I try to turn her up more.

Of the two runs I tried on slicks, I bogged the hell out of the first attempt (was launching at 6 and I was not expecting them to be quite THAT insanely grippy). For the 2nd attempt I upped launch control to 7; it was a bit better but missed 2nd gear and only did a 1.62 60'.
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Old 09-30-2014, 03:45 PM   #127
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Are you running the 07 STi 1-4?
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Old 09-30-2014, 08:46 PM   #128
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Could you put a tall enough tire on it so you could hold out 4th? This car should pick up 30+MPH on the back half no?
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Old 10-01-2014, 12:55 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post
Are you running the 07 STi 1-4?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
Could you put a tall enough tire on it so you could hold out 4th? This car should pick up 30+MPH on the back half no?
07 STi 1st-4th, Spec B 5th & 6th. 8k rpm on 255/40/17s and the star specs were at 20 psi. 4th ends right around 132, 5th would likely go to around 168-169 or so.

I do have 26x8.5 slicks I will be trying, which should give me 4-6 mph over my current tires. After that I will probably ride the rpm a bit higher in 4th to try and hold it. 8300 on those tires should get me to around 145 in 4th gear.

We will see. I am going to try a few things, but I think you're right, I think she has a few more MPH if I can hold on to 4th gear, I bet 5th is just wrecking my MPH.
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Old 10-02-2014, 04:53 PM   #130
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Which motor did you end up running this time around?

Nice to see you finally enjoying the car, sounded great!
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Old 10-02-2014, 04:59 PM   #131
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The initial plan:

I gave him a sleeved and oringed block.
He had Pauter make him custom +2mm rods with larger bearings and wrist pin bushing
I Sold him some custom pistons to match the bushings and rod length (at cost).
Pauter also custom ground the crankshaft to match the bearings.

It's a 4.030 bore x 79mm stroke and 132.5mm rods.

I'm pretty sure that's what he ended up with.
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Old 10-02-2014, 05:17 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post
The initial plan:

I gave him a sleeved and oringed block.
He had Pauter make him custom +2mm rods with larger bearings and wrist pin bushing
I Sold him some custom pistons to match the bushings and rod length (at cost).
Pauter also custom ground the crankshaft to match the bearings.

It's a 4.030 bore x 79mm stroke and 132.5mm rods.

I'm pretty sure that's what he ended up with.
I know you built the previous motors for this car, did you assemble this one also?
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Old 10-02-2014, 06:14 PM   #133
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I did not. I was moving and still getting things figured out over here while he was getting it built. I wanted to be able to help him with the assembly, but I was stretched too thin.
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:28 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
Which motor did you end up running this time around?

Nice to see you finally enjoying the car, sounded great!
Thanks! And yes, Dom is correct but there were a couple more changes to the rods. They upgraded the material (same as their heavy duty 2JZ rods, I believe they said), added oil relief slits on both sides of the big end, and changed for ARP 625+ bolts. Dom got the big ones.

Since Dom was too busy it went to a local shop (Apex) for assembly. She turned out to be a pretty quiet engine for what she is going to do.

I am planning on going to GLD next Friday with the slicks to gets some more practice in and take a shot at clicking off a high 9 at the same power level I was at last time. Once I get used to her as she sits then I will start hunting for more power.

It is still taking more boost to hit numbers than I would have expected and the IDCs were high for the power output too (around ~94% on 43.5 psi base pressure on ID2000s when I had boost up in the mid/high 30s on the dyno).

I have a couple theories about why this might be (inadequate vacuum to the crank case perhaps?), but I am going to need to pick a few brains to see if I am looking in the right direction.

That is part of why I never turned her all the way as high at the track as I had her on the dyno.
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Old 10-03-2014, 12:52 PM   #135
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Bummed I missed out on helping you put it together.

One thing to keep in mind: Internal friction is a mother ****er. Bigger bearings, heavier rods, larger pins, larger bushings, heavier valve springs etc all add to engine friction. Any source of friction is an instant and large loss in power.
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Old 10-03-2014, 01:46 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post
Bummed I missed out on helping you put it together.

One thing to keep in mind: Internal friction is a mother ****er. Bigger bearings, heavier rods, larger pins, larger bushings, heavier valve springs etc all add to engine friction. Any source of friction is an instant and large loss in power.
That would make some sense. Whatever it is, it seems to be consistent between short-blocks though. Both builds topped out within about 10 hp of each other at the same boost levels.

It was only gaining 5-8 hp per psi on a 95 lb/min turbo. It took 38.5 psi to break 700 wheel on the dyno and I have not again run it that high since. On the last build it was right around 35 psi to do 672. I do not believe it is the intercooler or turbo as boost is solid and IATs only climb about 3-5* during a pull.

The dyno on this car is still pretty wavy, but it pulls very smoothly on the street. I was thinking about it yesterday and I am wondering if this might not be, in part, a result of the "turbo-back" placement. It makes a 100-110* turn right after the turbo and turns down under the car (so it is pointed slightly to the center of the car, and slightly forward). I am wondering if a) that is building excess back pressure, both on the dyno, and on the street and b) if the turbo is sucking up excess exhaust. The waviness (not as rapid as it was on the previous engine) does seem to increase with more boost.

My counter point to A is that it is using that much fuel to hit the appropriate AFR, if it was choking VE from backpressure, fueling should be lower. My counter point to B is that SD VE and resulting air fuels are smooth and consistent during pulls both on the dyno and on the street implying that it if this were the case it happens with the same volume of exhaust ingestion regardless of moving air around it or not.

It could also be that the car is timed on the lower side as a result. I did play with timing a little bit and the 2* I added in on lower boost made about a clear 30 wheel increase. Timing at 38 psi was around 8-9* at peak torque, and around 13-14* at 7k (if I remember correctly, plus or minus a degree) on Ignite Red, (E90+ race blend). I wanted to make sure I wasn't under-timing it, but I wasn't going to push it to the edge. Fueling was between an 11.5-11.7.

Edit: Also, the reason I am/was thinking crank case vacuum is due to the way vacuum is routed currently. The ventilation from the block goes to a large catch can (which has an external vent) and also a vacuum line going to exhaust scavenge. The reasoning behind keeping the outside vent on the catch can was to not suck oil through the catch can into the exhaust, but in thinking about it, all the exhaust scavenge is going to do is suck air through the vent and not actually apply any meaningful vacuum to the crank case. Does that make any sense/could that be a problem?

Also, I am not a mechanic - I am just trying to think about this logically.

Last edited by RexFTW; 10-03-2014 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 10-03-2014, 02:48 PM   #137
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Is your scavenge connection near the end of your exhaust pipe?

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Old 10-03-2014, 02:51 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post
Is your scavenge connection near the end of your exhaust pipe?

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It is as early as we could get it without being in the bend or leading into an oxygen sensor
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Old 10-03-2014, 03:06 PM   #139
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it needs to be at the very very end of your piping just before it goes to atmosphere. It does nothing further up stream as you have back pressure in the pipe. With the vent to atmosphere, I would not be surprised if you are pushing a tiny bit of exhaust out the filter on high power pulls.

Also, you should pick up about 15whp per degree of timing up to about 14 degrees at peak torque. However, 14 degrees at peak torque is really going to start stressing the head studs, gaskets, wrist pin bushings etc.
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Old 10-03-2014, 03:26 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post
it needs to be at the very very end of your piping just before it goes to atmosphere. It does nothing further up stream as you have back pressure in the pipe. With the vent to atmosphere, I would not be surprised if you are pushing a tiny bit of exhaust out the filter on high power pulls.

Also, you should pick up about 15whp per degree of timing up to about 14 degrees at peak torque. However, 14 degrees at peak torque is really going to start stressing the head studs, gaskets, wrist pin bushings etc.
Hmm... I had assumed 14-15* of timing at peak torque (around 5300-5500 rpm) at 38-39 psi would be disastrous. I am going to figure out the waviness first in the next few weeks then see how she responds to more timing so I can at least see consistent back to back tests.
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Old 10-03-2014, 03:43 PM   #141
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38? I must have read that wrong.

9 is still low for subaru geometry.
I would lower the boost to 31 and put 13 degrees on it and compare the output.
Unless you've done that already. If you have, what was the output?

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Old 10-03-2014, 03:53 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post
it needs to be at the very very end of your piping just before it goes to atmosphere. It does nothing further up stream as you have back pressure in the pipe. With the vent to atmosphere, I would not be surprised if you are pushing a tiny bit of exhaust out the filter on high power pulls.

Also, you should pick up about 15whp per degree of timing up to about 14 degrees at peak torque. However, 14 degrees at peak torque is really going to start stressing the head studs, gaskets, wrist pin bushings etc.

Sharp guy you are .

on my 67 i was seeing about 39 whp for every 2 degrees which would be right on with what you said. All vd stuff though. who knows how accurate it is!
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Old 10-03-2014, 04:03 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post
38? I must have read that wrong.

9 is still low for subaru geometry.
I would lower the boost to 31 and put 13 degrees on it and compare the output.
Unless you've done that already. If you have, what was the output?

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It currently is running 12-13* when I run it at 30 psi and it was doing right around 620-640ish at that boost/timing number.
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Old 10-03-2014, 04:06 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW View Post
That would make some sense. Whatever it is, it seems to be consistent between short-blocks though. Both builds topped out within about 10 hp of each other at the same boost levels.

It was only gaining 5-8 hp per psi on a 95 lb/min turbo. It took 38.5 psi to break 700 wheel on the dyno and I have not again run it that high since. On the last build it was right around 35 psi to do 672. I do not believe it is the intercooler or turbo as boost is solid and IATs only climb about 3-5* during a pull.

The dyno on this car is still pretty wavy, but it pulls very smoothly on the street. I was thinking about it yesterday and I am wondering if this might not be, in part, a result of the "turbo-back" placement. It makes a 100-110* turn right after the turbo and turns down under the car (so it is pointed slightly to the center of the car, and slightly forward). I am wondering if a) that is building excess back pressure, both on the dyno, and on the street and b) if the turbo is sucking up excess exhaust. The waviness (not as rapid as it was on the previous engine) does seem to increase with more boost.

My counter point to A is that it is using that much fuel to hit the appropriate AFR, if it was choking VE from backpressure, fueling should be lower. My counter point to B is that SD VE and resulting air fuels are smooth and consistent during pulls both on the dyno and on the street implying that it if this were the case it happens with the same volume of exhaust ingestion regardless of moving air around it or not.

It could also be that the car is timed on the lower side as a result. I did play with timing a little bit and the 2* I added in on lower boost made about a clear 30 wheel increase. Timing at 38 psi was around 8-9* at peak torque, and around 13-14* at 7k (if I remember correctly, plus or minus a degree) on Ignite Red, (E90+ race blend). I wanted to make sure I wasn't under-timing it, but I wasn't going to push it to the edge. Fueling was between an 11.5-11.7.

Edit: Also, the reason I am/was thinking crank case vacuum is due to the way vacuum is routed currently. The ventilation from the block goes to a large catch can (which has an external vent) and also a vacuum line going to exhaust scavenge. The reasoning behind keeping the outside vent on the catch can was to not suck oil through the catch can into the exhaust, but in thinking about it, all the exhaust scavenge is going to do is suck air through the vent and not actually apply any meaningful vacuum to the crank case. Does that make any sense/could that be a problem?

Also, I am not a mechanic - I am just trying to think about this logically.
To address this more directly:
Are you familiar with MBT curves and how they apply to Subarus (or any engine for that matter)? It's a bit like a bell shape. On the steep part of the bell, you get large gains per degree.

If you're too far down the curve, you'll make less power per degree than you would if you were in the efficient region. This is the same for being near the peak of the curve.

THat's why I recommended lowering boost and raising timing to 13. That gets you closer to an efficient burn and then as you add boost, you should see a larger gain per PSI as long as you aren't lowering timing too far while doing it. You can get so low in advance and so high in boost that you pick up very little power with each step. You start to get excessive EGBP which combined with the low ignition advance really hurts your power.
I've noticed that you have always been very conservative on timing. I've seen many tuners more aggressive and less agressive than I am with timing. However, I've never seen anyone as conservative as you (in the tunes you shared with me).
Yes knock is bad, however, efficiency is very important. Don't tune just to hide from knock. Clean and complete burns have less soot and carbon buildup in addition to needing less boost to make the same amount of HP.
You're running a fuel that is very difficult to knock. You're more likely to overtime the engine than get it to detonate.

So if you find where the car is efficient timing wise, you can progress from that point.
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Old 10-03-2014, 04:10 PM   #145
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I try and start with a timing map that I know isnt cooking the exhaust gas but low enough i can have a good baseline. set afr, boost and lastly bring the timing back in. Much rather make the power with boost personally than timing. As you stated some of these guys really go crazy with the timing. Seems to be the quickest engine killer imo.
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Old 10-03-2014, 04:11 PM   #146
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very true. That's why different tuners have different styles.
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Old 10-03-2014, 04:21 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post
To address this more directly:
Are you familiar with MBT curves and how they apply to Subarus (or any engine for that matter)? It's a bit like a bell shape. On the steep part of the bell, you get large gains per degree.

If you're too far down the curve, you'll make less power per degree than you would if you were in the efficient region. This is the same for being near the peak of the curve.

THat's why I recommended lowering boost and raising timing to 13. That gets you closer to an efficient burn and then as you add boost, you should see a larger gain per PSI as long as you aren't lowering timing too far while doing it. You can get so low in advance and so high in boost that you pick up very little power with each step. You start to get excessive EGBP which combined with the low ignition advance really hurts your power.
I've noticed that you have always been very conservative on timing. I've seen many tuners more aggressive and less agressive than I am with timing. However, I've never seen anyone as conservative as you (in the tunes you shared with me).
Yes knock is bad, however, efficiency is very important. Don't tune just to hide from knock. Clean and complete burns have less soot and carbon buildup in addition to needing less boost to make the same amount of HP.
You're running a fuel that is very difficult to knock. You're more likely to overtime the engine than get it to detonate.

So if you find where the car is efficient timing wise, you can progress from that point.
I would say I am pretty familiar with the concept, though obviously not to the extent of the big names. And I definitely know I'm not going to get this fuel to knock without doing something pretty hair-brained, but I don't want to hover at or near MBT and start getting occasional (or frequent the higher you go) pressure spikes. That is more my concern and without the dyno giving me reliable deltas per degree, it makes it much harder to judge.

I really appreciate your input and I will play around with her a bit more in the near near future.
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Old 06-20-2015, 03:21 PM   #148
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Bump from the dead & update.

I retuned her and turned her up a bit a couple weeks ago. I took her to the track last night. Unfortunately, i only got 3 passes as the track was really busy.

The first pass was on low boost map (30-31 psi). I missed 5th gear and coasted through the traps.
The second pass was on high boost (40-41 psi). I missed 4th and got locked out until I fully lifted. I got back in it, losing 17 mph to the 1/8th but the problem with hitting 4th gear killed it.
Third pass tried to put me into the wall so I coasted.

I really need to work on suspension. Even though she is doing pretty good 60' for my first time out this year, she is hopping a bit and pulling up the front tires on the first hop. My old Teins aren't up to the task.

I also need to actually connect gears.
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Old 06-20-2015, 03:27 PM   #149
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9.7 is moving.

Call Feal and get a custom set of dampers
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Old 06-20-2015, 03:29 PM   #150
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9.7 ain't too shabby for missing a shift.
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