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Old 08-20-2010, 01:06 AM   #1
Halls
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Default Long Term Review: Hybrid Users Post Here

I find that it would be usefull to have a thread dedicated to users of hybrid motors, instead of having to have multiple threads bookmarked to find the information you want (with the exception to stikys) Also any other things that did occur in the future, like tuning issues or oil consumption (I know there are a few threads on consumption).

Mileage since installed:
Type Engine and Internals: *State if you have low-compression pistons. If you don't know--shame on you.
Valve-train: *State machine work
Head Gasket Choice:

Current Status:


Follow this format so it is clear to read.

*Please forgive me if there is already a thread covering this.

Last edited by Halls; 11-01-2010 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 08-20-2010, 08:30 PM   #2
sube-trex
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Huh, nobody has any input... seems strange since these builds have been going on for quite some time now +7 years.. and not to mention a local shop here does ~3-5/month...
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Old 08-21-2010, 01:54 AM   #3
TRDRacer
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Mileage since installed: 8X,XXX but is down due to me putting in bad gas and getting insane knock and blowing ringland! Other then that was a solid motor with great power!
Type Engine and Internals: Stock 05 ej257 with 03 wrx heads
Valve-train: Stock 03 WRX
Head Gasket Choice: Stock STI
Tuner: Tim Bailey

Last edited by TRDRacer; 09-17-2010 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 08-21-2010, 09:07 AM   #4
Ryan314
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Hybrid EJ257

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Mileage since installed: 3500
Type Engine and Internals: Brand new '10 STI short block
Valve-train: Stock 2.0L heads
Head Gasket Choice: STI
Tune: Tuned with no problems. 250whp/300tq (TD04)

Current status: Blown ringland at 3500 miles. Subaru pistons SUCK! Unbelievable that it blew a ringland with my setup
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Old 08-21-2010, 12:48 PM   #5
PSolbergfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan314 View Post
Mileage since installed: 3500
Type Engine and Internals: Brand new '10 STI short block
Valve-train: Stock 2.0L heads
Head Gasket Choice: STI
Tune: Tuned with no problems. 250whp/300tq (TD04)

Current status: Blown ringland at 3500 miles. Subaru pistons SUCK! Unbelievable that it blew a ringland with my setup
That is unbelievable that you blew a ring land. Are you certain of this? I would say that, that's a pretty safe power level for a stock STi block. Even with stock pistons.
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Old 08-23-2010, 07:49 PM   #6
Maxwell Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSolbergfan View Post
That is unbelievable that you blew a ring land. Are you certain of this? I would say that, that's a pretty safe power level for a stock STi block. Even with stock pistons.

using a turbo like a tdo4 only makes the reliability issues worse.

I know it's hard to believe, but you were just looking at power levels. Power levels don't dictate reliability in this configuration. The tendency of an engine to knock does. A hybrid with a tdo4 is more likely to knock than a hybrid with a vf39. It comes down to the very restrictive turbine housing found on the tdo4. A restrictive turbine housing will limit the amount of scavenging that occurs during valve overlap. In extreme cases it will actually result in polluting the cylinder with exhaust gas instead of clearing it out with a fresh air/fuel charge. If you can't remove any heat during overlap you are going to increase the tendency of the engine to detonate.


Tdo4 turbos do not belong on 2.5L engines at all and they are even worse on hybrids with stock heads.
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Old 08-24-2010, 04:26 AM   #7
sube-trex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
current status?

I think the current status is important for everyone's post.

IMHO that is based off many of these engines, a Hybrid without proper chamber work (regardless of who tuned it) is a ticking time bomb. Many people talk about how great the extra quench is, but I think it has a very very negative effect as it places a lot of material in the way of the escaping exhaust gases creating large hot spots.
All the more reason to get the proper machining done. I have been looking at this from an aviation standpoint and have decided to do the machining other than not getting it done. I had a local tuner talk about how great the hybrid setup is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
here is what I'm trying to explain in a really crappy MS Paint drawn picture.Point A is the large quench pad that is created by placing a 2.5L bore on a 2L head. Point A on the non enlarged head has a greater quantity of exhaust gas passing that point in addition to a relatively stagnant pocket (B) just below it. When the piston moves to the top, that pocket is cleared out and the hot
gasses are pushed up and around the corner at Point A. This causes the heat to be deposited into the head at that point which creates a hot spot that will cause detonation the next time the cylinder is filled and compressed. Also, filling that void around the corner takes more
time and energy which can rob power. Someone might argue that the cool charge coming into the cylinder the next time around will cool off that hot spot. That is what I believe happens to a degree under light loads and when the intercooler is cooling the intake charge off
significantly. Under high boost and heat soak conditions the spot will not be cooled sufficiently by the intake charge and that point will only get hotter and hotter.

In the cylinder on the left, the point A only has
a small amount of gases flowing past it and the very small pocket (B) doesn't retain a lot of heat or stagnant gasses.

This is why Hybrids are so unreliable. You can have a 9:1 compression hybrid with a larger chamber and it would be leagues above a 9:1 compression hybrid with no chamber work in both power and reliability.
I like how you cut through the info of the over-glorrified hybrid setup. Almost all shops I've talked to have mentioned only geting the machining done if you want to have 400plus whp and don't mention anything about the reliability of the hybrid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
using a turbo like a tdo4 only makes the reliability issues worse.

I know it's hard to believe, but you were just looking at power levels. Power levels don't
dictate reliability in this configuration. The tendency of an engine to knock does. A hybrid with a tdo4 is more likely to knock than a hybrid with a vf39. It comes down to the very restrictive turbine housing found on the tdo4. A restrictive turbine housing will limit the amount of scavenging that occurs during valve overlap. In extreme cases it will actually result in polluting the cylinder with exhaust gas instead
of clearing it out with a fresh air/fuel charge. If you can't remove any heat during overlap you are going to increase the tendency of the engine to detonate.
Tdo4 turbos do not belong on 2.5L engines at all and they are even worse on hybrids with stock heads.
Yes,even more parts to buy to go over my budget!! But at least I will be making safe power.
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Old 11-01-2010, 12:40 AM   #8
pokybear
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Default Please review my hybrid build plans

My son and I are about to embark on a hybrid project, but before I start buying parts I thought I'd see if any hybrid builders out there want to comment on our plans? Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I'm particularly unsure of the cams, turbo, and injectors. Please be kind to this newbie. This is my first build since I was a kid, and back then it was muscle cars and California bugs.

Platform 2002 WRX 190K miles
Short Block EJ257
Oil Pump 2008 USDM STi 11mm
Heads Original EJ205
Heads Port and Polished
Valves Original
Valve Springs Original
Head Gasket Cosworth RCH-2145 Head Gasket Set EJ25 (1.5mm)
Head Studs OEM
Cams Brian Crower Stage 2 272/272
Injectors Original
Turbo IHI VF39
Exhaust Original
Transmission Later model OEM
Timing Belt Gates Racing Kevlar Timing Belt
Clutch Rebuilt at 157,018 miles
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Old 08-23-2010, 07:22 PM   #9
Maxwell Power
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRDRacer View Post
Mileage since installed: 8X,XXX
Type Engine and Internals: Stock 05 ej257 with 03 wrx heads
Valve-train: Stock 03 WRX
Head Gasket Choice: Stock STI
Tuner: Tim Bailey

current status?

I think the current status is important for everyone's post.

IMHO that is based off many of these engines, a Hybrid without proper chamber work (regardless of who tuned it) is a ticking time bomb. Many people talk about how great the extra quench is, but I think it has a very very negative effect as it places a lot of material in the way of the escaping exhaust gases creating large hot spots.
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:28 AM   #10
ownnij
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subaru pistons do suck but with your set up. your tune is what sucked.
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Old 08-21-2010, 11:06 AM   #11
crashtke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ownnij View Post
subaru pistons do suck but with your set up. your tune is what sucked.
Lol, same thing I said. Other option is some kind of mechanical failure.
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:37 AM   #12
Ryan314
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It was tuned by Bren Tuning (www.brentuning.com), who is highly regarded up in my area. Doubtful it was the tune. It tuned fine with no issues found in the tuning process whatsoever.
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Old 08-21-2010, 12:42 PM   #13
FuJi K
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Is my EJ22T block a hybrid?
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Old 08-21-2010, 03:53 PM   #14
Ryan314
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Tell me about... I'm pretty sure smoke pouring out of the filler cap when revved and consuming quarts of oil is a sure sign of a blown ringland.

There was a reason I didn't switch to stronger pistons during the build-- I didn't think I would NEED them with a TD04 making 250/300 power!

It was NOT the tune. Guaranteed.

I wonder if Subaru will do anything for me about this... doubtful.
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:12 PM   #15
crashtke
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Subaru will do nothing for you. Aftermarket tune, raised boost pressure=no warranty. Unless you had it installed at the dealer and were running stock levels of boost I doubt they would even think about warrantying it. But some how you detonated. For whatever reason you want to think. But at 250 hp on a TD04, it was pushing it pretty darn close to the edge/limit of what that turbo could do.
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:18 PM   #16
Ryan314
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250whp out of a TD04 set to 17psi with all the supporting mods is no way pushing the limit. Plus, the car was a daily driver, and it definitely wasn't beat on. My setup is almost identical to a stock 06-07 WRX (EJ25 block, TD04).
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:48 AM   #17
crashtke
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17 psi at peak, 17 psi at redline on a TD04? They could be two completely different things. The TD04 is maxed out at 250 hp. Go do the math 17 psi with 30 degrees of timing at peak torque? 17 psi at redline with 40 degrees of timing? You see my point at all?

I have tuned quite a few hybrids, some almost double that hp with stock pistons and no issues. And yes, some on 08+ short blocks. It takes detonation or a mechanical failure to break those pistons. Psi will not break pistons. Detonation will.

Last edited by crashtke; 08-22-2010 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:27 AM   #18
Ryan314
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17psi peak.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:31 AM   #19
crashtke
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Tapering to what and with what amount of timing?

You do know that above a certain range, the knock sensor becomes effectively useless right? It is specifically calibrated to a certain window.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:33 AM   #20
Ryan314
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I'd have to check with my tuner. He honestly never found any knock tuning this motor, and through out all of the logs I've sent him since the tune...
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:25 PM   #21
Paul
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do you have any logs?
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Old 08-22-2010, 01:34 PM   #22
Ryan314
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Most recent learning view-

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Old 08-22-2010, 03:02 PM   #23
TRDRacer
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Guys please don't turn this to a trouble shooting post! It is made to post only setups that people have used! I for one am glad to see this posted but I would not want to be someone who will have to look through pages of someones problem and others trying to figure it out! Post another thread about this, which I think you already have, so no more figuring out the problem guys, please keep it a clean post with setups only!!!!
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:53 PM   #24
twonb1
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Mileage since installed: Beats Me
Type Engine and Internals: Ej257 w/ 100mm mahle 4032
Valve-train: Bc 272, cams springs, valves and retainers
Head Gasket Choice: Stock Sti
428hp [email protected] 22lbs

Current status: Blown Ringland
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:27 AM   #25
Halls
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What's up with all these blown ring lands? I know the OEM pistons suck.. but c'mon. Any preventative actions for this other than forged pistons?
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