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Old 05-15-2010, 10:58 AM   #1
cj_WReX
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Default installed type-r's in front and rear - now my bass is gone

Just got a new 2010 base wrx hatch a month ago. Had to swap out the stereo right away b/c the stock unit was a joke.

first I installed the an avh-p3200bt HU. This ended up making a world of difference even with the stock speakers.

I decided to take it a step further and add alpine tpye-r's front and back..... alpine spr-17s components in the front and alpine spr-17c coaxials in the back. Both are 6-1/2 inch speakers. I also decided to run them off of an alpine pdx 4.100 amp.

After installing speakers and amp the bass has totally dissapaeared. The stock speakers hit much harder. Did I do something wrong?

I'm thinking of buying a custom enclosure from audio integrations and throwing a sub in it to fix the issue.... then I'll just run my rear speakers off of the Pioneer HU and bridge the 2 rear channels on the amp to power the sub. But then I will only have 200 watts powering my amp. My question is - are there any 10 inch subs that will work decently in this box with only 200 watts of juice? Or is there something else I am doing wrong?

If anyone has any advice it would be greatly appreciated.

BTW - I listen to rock and electronic indie music. I don't want to buy a new amp but am willing to spend the cash on the audio integrations custom enclosure.
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Old 05-15-2010, 11:04 AM   #2
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1. Did you use the crossover on the amp (HP)? If so, where is it set?
2. You very well may have a polarity issue, meaning one or more speakers is wired 'backwards'
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Old 05-15-2010, 11:47 AM   #3
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, on Flickr - channels 1 and 2 are my fronts

2. This is my first car audio install so I may have hooked a (+) to a (-) but I was extra careful to keep everything straight.

I think was being a little dramatic when I stated that my bass dissapeared. Overall everything sounds really clear - the system has sweet sound - and there is bass don't get me wrong. it's just missing a lot of bass..... for example, the factory speakers hit harder than these...... I can adjust the amp to a point where it pumps out more bass but then I go to turn up the stereo and I get crazy distortion.

Last edited by cj_WReX; 03-24-2011 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 05-15-2010, 01:15 PM   #4
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Sounds like you need to check your speaker phasing and probably turn off all filters but those ont he amp, or use the ones on the deck. When you use both you get a crazy steep slope that can often kill midbass response. I run type-rs up front on my car and dont run any filters on them at all.
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Old 05-15-2010, 02:00 PM   #5
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thanks for the response.

I ran the HP filter on the fronts b/c the manual recommended it for tweeters. I'll give it a shot w/out the filter on the amp and manage it from my HU.

If I do decide to bridge the amp does anyone have a recommendation on a sub would work well in audio integration's perfect fit hatch enclosure? http://www.audiointegrations.net/cat...69/6655814.htm

Again it'll only have 200 watts running to it. I was thinking of doing a 10 " alpine type s sub????
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Old 05-15-2010, 03:18 PM   #6
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A good subwoofer that I'll be running shortly are some RE audio. I'm using RE SX-10 that have a 1000w RMS and 2000peak.

By any chance how did you get the rears to fit on your car? On my 06 wrx I couldnt get the rear type r's on, mainly because of placement issues.
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Old 05-15-2010, 03:22 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj_WReX View Post
I ran the HP filter on the fronts b/c the manual recommended it for tweeters. I'll give it a shot w/out the filter on the amp and manage it from my HU.
I understand what you are saying but the tweeter has its own filter built onto the crossover...you did you use the crossovers that came with the speakers right? And a high pass filter just filter frequencies from a given point on up whether its 80/120/150/200hz...so really your tweeters are responsible for frequencies from I think 1khz on up...so a high pass filter does nothing to effect those frequencies
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Old 05-15-2010, 03:37 PM   #8
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icic - I am using the crossovers that came with the components. I'll make sure to turn off the HP filter on the amp and see if I can get everything tuned on the HU.

For the rear speakers, I used the mounting bracket that came with it. Took a while to figure out how to get them to fit. my bottom screw just barely holds the bracket in place. It doesn't vibrate and is in solid. It would be nice to buy some brackets that fit the car though.
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Old 05-15-2010, 03:59 PM   #9
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Yep, start off with the filter set off on the amp. You have it set at a little above 110Hz, so a lot of the low stuff will not be played through the speakers. Typically, this is set somewhere between 80Hz and 100Hz with a sub. Without, you will probably set it lower or off since you don't have another device to cover the low frequencies. The Type-R speakers are not bass monsters though, and they will top out pretty easily. They'll certainly match the stock speakers fine, but there are some other products out there with far more capable woofers.
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:12 PM   #10
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yeah, still sounds like a config problem, four 6.5" speakers should give you some decent mid-low end. at the least, nothing less than you did have.

And yes, if you so choose, 200w is plenty to handle a decent 10" sub.

I run an Alpine 5-chnl in my STi, powering all 4 door speakers (comps F, co-ax back), and an Infinity 10" in the trunk running 100W(RMS) to it and It's been great for years now.
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Old 05-15-2010, 06:32 PM   #11
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Before you go to far, you can even test without swapping anything, by just using the balance control and moving it off center..

If you move off center and you notice the lower end coming back, phase/polarity issue for sure...
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Old 05-16-2010, 01:00 PM   #12
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Problem solved

thx everyone for the help. It now has better mid and low bass than the stock speakers. I just had to turn off the filters on the amp and move the crossover to it's lowest setting which is 30. Then I added some gain which pumped up the bass significantly. So need for a sub yet
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Old 05-16-2010, 03:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron'z 2.5RS View Post
Before you go to far, you can even test without swapping anything, by just using the balance control and moving it off center..

If you move off center and you notice the lower end coming back, phase/polarity issue for sure...

ok... you solved the problem, but you are only 50-60% there...

what Aaron is saying above is the KEY...

when you have a car with mid-range/mid-bass speakers firing straight at each other the POLARITY of the speaker will cause a PHASE issue... its an important distinction.

Phase is a function of the speaker's movement. Phase & impedance change with every single micro-meter of movement... this cannot be helped. However, the polarity, the wiring/direction of the speaker can dramatically change the in-cabin character of your car.

Start with everything at "absolute polarity".. meaning everything is wired + to + & - to -. Listen to it with MUSIC that you know. Now, change ONE midrange driver, usually the pass front door. Listen again. Sound better or worse? Better, leave it. Worse, put it back. Next is the Driver's tweeter, trust me. Better? Worse? keep doing the same for all 4 front speakers. If nothing makes a difference, then fade all the way forward. If the car sounds better without the rear coaxes... there is a more significant problem...

Test, listen, test listen...

rob
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Old 05-16-2010, 03:11 PM   #14
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^^ this man know what he's saying ^^
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj_WReX View Post

I decided to take it a step further and add alpine tpye-r's front and back..... alpine spr-17s components in the front and alpine spr-17c coaxials in the back. Both are 6-1/2 inch speakers. I also decided to run them off of an alpine pdx 4.100 amp.
That's awesome, I just bought the same package of speakers and amp last month and I am in the midst of installing it this week. So far I installed the rear speakers and ran those wires. I custom installed the front tweeters, now I need to install the front speakers, crossover and amp. I can't wait to hear the difference.
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Old 05-22-2010, 01:45 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXwrxWagon View Post
ok... you solved the problem, but you are only 50-60% there...

what Aaron is saying above is the KEY...

when you have a car with mid-range/mid-bass speakers firing straight at each other the POLARITY of the speaker will cause a PHASE issue... its an important distinction.

Phase is a function of the speaker's movement. Phase & impedance change with every single micro-meter of movement... this cannot be helped. However, the polarity, the wiring/direction of the speaker can dramatically change the in-cabin character of your car.

Start with everything at "absolute polarity".. meaning everything is wired + to + & - to -. Listen to it with MUSIC that you know. Now, change ONE midrange driver, usually the pass front door. Listen again. Sound better or worse? Better, leave it. Worse, put it back. Next is the Driver's tweeter, trust me. Better? Worse? keep doing the same for all 4 front speakers. If nothing makes a difference, then fade all the way forward. If the car sounds better without the rear coaxes... there is a more significant problem...

Test, listen, test listen...

rob

are you suggesting i test out the speakers with the (-) attached to (+)? sorry new to car audio.
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Old 05-22-2010, 02:48 PM   #17
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Thought I'd chime in with a few comments to the OP. I beat myself up for about two months over whether or not to spend $$$ on the Audio Integrations box; I'm a do-it-yerself type, and I have built quite a few boxes, so I didn't like the idea of paying for one, but... Just do it! You won't regret it, I promise. That box is worth every penny in my opinion. Second, as a few others have stated, the 200w from bridging your rear channels will be plenty if you choose your sub carefully. There a lot of decent subs designed to run in that power range. Third, don't feel bad about underpowering the rears; rear speakers kill your stereo image and many of us do without them entirely, as they're just kinda cluttering things up if you have decent comps up front and a sub in the back. And finally, did you do any deadening in the doors? A few sq. feet of raamat or dynamat on the outer door skin behind the speakers and inner panel around the speakers can make a HUGE difference in midbass impact!

Nice choice of amp/speakers, btw; I had some of those in my sti before I absentmindedly exploded them. Happy listening!
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:45 AM   #18
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Thanks Ash_J - I think I'm going to do the Audio Integrations custom fit. I would like to do a type-r sub but have heard that 200w is not nearly enough to power this particular sub. On the other hand, will the Alpine Type-S 10" sub do the job?

re: type-s - Quick question - 4 Ohm or 2 Ohm? As a reminder, I will be bridging the rears on the amp so only 200 watts.

To answer your question - I have not done any deadening in the doors. I would like to do some dynamat extreme in the fronts... Right now my speaker mounts are rattling pretty bad so first and foremost I need to buy some custom spacers. The stock alpine spacers I installed had to be jimmy-rigged to the mounts .... any recs on spacers for a 2010 hatch with 6.5 inch speakers front and back???

Last edited by cj_WReX; 05-23-2010 at 01:09 AM.
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:29 AM   #19
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Btw nasioc has an incredible forum. Everyone is very helpful. On some user goups ppl just want to hate. So thanks for the support. Still asking for help though... When it comes to speaker spacers many threads reference pre '08 imprezas...... Is there a speaker spacer speced for '08+ vehicles...... There is a ton of info on thid site and it can be daunting to sift through. Feel free to call me out but please reference a thread - thanks again
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Old 05-26-2010, 09:10 AM   #20
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Were you really that impressed with the sound just by changing the headunit? I also just purchased a 2010 impreza with the "premium" sound system and there is nothing premium about it. I was interested in doing some stereo work but don't exactly have a big budget due to college.
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Old 05-26-2010, 10:02 AM   #21
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Imprezin,

This week I installed the newer model (AVH-P4000dvd) of the OP's HU in my '05. I believe my HU has basically the same specs / power output though.

While the new HU does make the stock speakers sound a little bit better, I can now make them fart (distort) on command if I'm not careful with the EQ. Woot? I'm definitely looking into upgraded fronts down the road (~$100-$200). Then an amp for the fronts, and then a sub. Baby steps!

The reason I got a HU was for the USB compatibility and the RCA outputs for my amp in the future.

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Old 05-26-2010, 11:56 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezin0813 View Post
Were you really that impressed with the sound just by changing the headunit? I also just purchased a 2010 impreza with the "premium" sound system and there is nothing premium about it. I was interested in doing some stereo work but don't exactly have a big budget due to college.
The head unit will almost ALWAYS make the single biggest difference of any one component of a system.
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Old 05-26-2010, 12:03 PM   #23
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I believe my HU has basically the same specs / power output though.

If you're comparing that to the OEM unit, then not even close. An aftermarket unit has one HUUUUGE advantage over the OEM unit, and that's the built-in processing. OEM units have built-in processing to try to get the most from the craptastic OEM speakers. While this is good for sound at minimal to regular volume levels, it REALLY kills the overall output.

Keep in mind that it takes twice as much power to increase 3db at any given frequency. If you wanna increase your bass by 3db, it takes twice the power to do so than it did before. You can only double output so many times before you hit the ceiling of what the puny little amp in the head unit can do.

Aftermarket head units, even if they only had the same power, usually have options to have very little, if any such processing that bumps output. That means that you can get the most from the power, and make small tweaks where you feel necessary, not where the manufacturer feels necessary.

The reason you're able to make the speakers distort faster is because the new head unit has more range in its adjustments, it can make larger increases and decreases. If you go back to where I said that a 3db increase needs a doubling of power, you will again hit the head unit's amp limits very quickly. You are NOT over-powering the speakers, you are essentially over-driving the amplifier in the head unit.

And the specs ARE different, an aftermarket unit will almost always have a fairly significant increase in power, among a bazillion other benefits.
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Old 05-26-2010, 12:48 PM   #24
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I was comparing OP's AVH-P3200BT vs my AVH-P4000DVD. Both are 50x4w max and I'm assuming similar EQ functionality. I was trying to give imprezin0813 a feel for what the sound would be like if he JUST upgraded the HU and kept the stock speakers.

But you are correct in the over driving. I was trying to make the stock speakers w/ the aftermarket HU sound loud AND bassy.... not gonna happen (Hey, I can hope can't I? ) Even with the bass turned way down, they still aren't loud enough to play at the levels I'd like with the windows down on the highway. Hence my aftermarket front stage / amp route I'm going to take as funds allow

Last edited by Mike 01Hawk; 05-26-2010 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 05-26-2010, 12:51 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike 01Hawk View Post
I was comparing OP's AVH-P3200BT vs my AVH-P4000DVD. Both are 50x4w max and I'm assuming similar EQ functionality. I was trying to give imprezin0813 a feel for what the sound would be like if he JUST upgraded the HU and kept the stock speakers.

Ok, nevermind then.

And FYI- max power when it comes to car audio means nothing. No really, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. What you want to look for is what's called RMS power. That's the true output. Max power is for nothing but marketing.

Think of your car being 300hp, but they rate it for 750hp max
Ya, it's that ****ing stupid


Anyhow, most Pioneer head units have an RMS output rated at 22w, which is pretty healthy
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