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Old 05-07-2008, 01:23 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by SlideWRX View Post
Ask all the illegal aliens if the lawn work or construction work is backbreaking. *anyone* can do it.


Because they snuck out to the strip club and won't get in trouble?
What point are you trying to make. That construction and landscaping companies hire illegal aliens to do the work because they know they can pay them less. Illegal aliens CANT say anything about the pay. Thats why they do it for so cheap.


Its not because they snuck out either. You dont have to sneak when your allowed to leave. They couldnt handle the work load so they quit after 5-6 hours. But i guess your all right any moron can do it. Its not like i have first hand experience or anything. I train the new ppl that come in to the warehouse.
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:23 PM   #27
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You have no idea what its like to work for GM or ford. They have these contracts for more reasons then money and benefits. They have them to help protect peoples jobs. You act like GM and Ford are the victims. Last time i checked they AGREED to these requests. They try to break state and govt laws on a daily basis to get more work done.

Its funny how you all think its such easy work and any moron could do it. Do you know how many ppl dont come back from lunch on there first day. Its back breaking labor and the majority do earn that money. Just because your book smart doesnt mean you have common sense. I do agree that there are some worthless POS that dont deserve there job, but theres nothing i can do about that.
I am sorry but that whole book smart but no common sense thing gets old. Its a labor job and there are many people that would love to have it. Anything they need to do the job they will be taught via video/OTJT, etc. If people left, then they are just lazy. If the job is to hard mentally, they are just dumb.

IF the big three treat employees that bad,then they should just leave. Apparently the toyota plants who are not union do not have any problems keeping their employees happy. If enough people leave, then perhaps they will change their policy. CHecks and balances will work if allowed to work.
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:26 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Vostok 7 View Post
You don't believe that is true? It totally is.

In some ways, it would be good if the depression of the '20s and '30s happened again so everyone in this country would get a little perspective again.

Vostok 7
I absolutely believe it - I'm the guy hiring all the number 1's.

In complete agreement with you - worker #2 believes he deserves a life equivalent to that of the upper-level mgt of other countries. It's delusional. Worker 2 should be ashamed of himself - but we've taught worker 2 that everyone's a winnar, so why shouldn't he live in my neighborhood and drive what I drive!

Line-level jobs deserve line-level pay, just like fast-food restaurant workers, retail workers, etc. In an industry that produces items to be sold internationally, that line-level pay must also be competitive with world levels (independent for fully-segmented markets) in order for it to be sustainable.
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:39 PM   #29
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I absolutely believe it - I'm the guy hiring all the number 1's.

In complete agreement with you - worker #2 believes he deserves a life equivalent to that of the upper-level mgt of other countries. It's delusional. Worker 2 should be ashamed of himself - but we've taught worker 2 that everyone's a winnar, so why shouldn't he live in my neighborhood and drive what I drive!

Line-level jobs deserve line-level pay, just like fast-food restaurant workers, retail workers, etc. In an industry that produces items to be sold internationally, that line-level pay must also be competitive with world levels (independent for fully-segmented markets) in order for it to be sustainable.
+1
but you know, you need to be "book smart" to understand it, so apparently some people in this thread will not get it
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:41 PM   #30
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I am sorry but that whole book smart but no common sense thing gets old. Its a labor job and there are many people that would love to have it. Anything they need to do the job they will be taught via video/OTJT, etc. If people left, then they are just lazy. If the job is to hard mentally, they are just dumb.

IF the big three treat employees that bad,then they should just leave. Apparently the toyota plants who are not union do not have any problems keeping their employees happy. If enough people leave, then perhaps they will change their policy. CHecks and balances will work if allowed to work.
Toyota doesnt have to KEEP them happy. They can just fire them. You do realize they make almost as much ford and gm employees. The problem is they can fire them for anything. Say one day you werent feeling good and your production was a little low. In a unionized job you wouldnt have to worry about anything. At a non union job they could fire you or discipline you. That wouldnt be fair now would it.
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:45 PM   #31
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I absolutely believe it - I'm the guy hiring all the number 1's.

In complete agreement with you - worker #2 believes he deserves a life equivalent to that of the upper-level mgt of other countries. It's delusional. Worker 2 should be ashamed of himself - but we've taught worker 2 that everyone's a winnar, so why shouldn't he live in my neighborhood and drive what I drive!

Line-level jobs deserve line-level pay, just like fast-food restaurant workers, retail workers, etc. In an industry that produces items to be sold internationally, that line-level pay must also be competitive with world levels (independent for fully-segmented markets) in order for it to be sustainable.
O and just incase you missed it. SMARTER ppl then you agreed to pay union workers this much. Like you know dem super college educated like people.
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:59 PM   #32
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I am sympathetic to unions to some degree. I think it is good that employees have a right to unionize in this country and protect their rights. There is a reason employees have this right, and it is directly due to poor working conditions, horrible pay, and abuse by ownership/management. The unions have served a purpose over the years of establishing fair workplace rules (for employees and management). Does that mean that abuse doesn't happen? No. There is abuse in non-union jobs too from deadbeats. Unfortunately, no matter what the rules, people will break them and others will defend those who break the rules. No system is perfect.

The problem here, with the UAW, is that it is throwing the auto companies as well as it's workforce under the bus***8230; and in some ways the workforce doesn't even realize it.

Take this incident. GM just posted another loss of $3.3 billion. GM is hurting financially. They are relying on their few, hot products to keep them going until the industry picks up. The Malibu is a huge bright spot in a lineup of anonymous cars, and is selling very well and earning GM money.

So the union strikes the plant making them. They know they have GM in a bind, because GM cannot afford to allow the strike to last long, or they will lose money and customers they so desperately need.

The result, GM will cave and give a more favorable contract to the UAW than is warranted, or stick it out. Either way, GM as a corporation gets weaker, their bottom line sees more red, and they more closer to becoming a failing business.

The UAW is doing this at American Axle now too. They have been on strike for 2 months, refusing to accept a pay reduction and buyout contract that was offered. The contract offered is similar to the ones that were offered and accepted at other similar suppliers like Delphi and Visteon. Definitely a contract that would pay what the market is currently bearing. Not good enough for the UAW this time, because Amercan Axle is running in the black (although not deep in black) and therefore, the UAW feels AA should pay far more than the market for supplier jobs is currently paying, not because a job there requires more skill, but because the company isn't about to go out of business.

The thing is***8230; if $30 an hour is the going rate in a free market, than $30 is a fair contract. If $18 an hour is the going rate in a free market, then $30 just is unreasonable.

The union still could serve a purpose, but harming companies financially which are already struggling is not going to help anyone in the long run.

UAW needs leadership that is willing to be part of the solution and there are ways they could do that while defending their workforce. Secure jobs for less pay might be an attractive alternative to 1 year more of great pay, then being tossed out the door.
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Old 05-07-2008, 02:12 PM   #33
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O and just incase you missed it. SMARTER ppl then you agreed to pay union workers this much. Like you know dem super college educated like people.
Morally defunct individuals decided to pay that much... in order to keep themselves employed and get bonuses. Their only defense would be to say they were dumb.
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Old 05-07-2008, 02:24 PM   #34
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They have them to help protect peoples jobs.
Why should their jobs have to be protected and not based on the quality of their work and compensated accordingly for the quality and type of work they do?

My job isn't protected. I can be fired for any reason. It's called 'at will'.

Quote:
You act like GM and Ford are the victims. Last time i checked they AGREED to these requests.
Wow, someone's naive. Unions are no more than legalized mob rule. If GM said no to one plant, then all the other plants would halt. It's a scare tactic by the mob rule utilized to show 'solidarity'. You know what? Don't wanna work? There's the door.

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Unions say they try to break state and govt laws on a daily basis to get an honest days work done.
Fixed.

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Old 05-07-2008, 02:48 PM   #35
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Toyota doesnt have to KEEP them happy. They can just fire them. You do realize they make almost as much ford and gm employees. The problem is they can fire them for anything. Say one day you werent feeling good and your production was a little low. In a unionized job you wouldnt have to worry about anything. At a non union job they could fire you or discipline you. That wouldnt be fair now would it.
Although this is partially true, there are still labor laws in this country, and a corporation as big as Toyota wouldn't be stupid enough to fire someone just because they were ill. There would be legal and PR ramifications to something like that. They are, after all, an industry based on public perception, so they will be willing to "work" with workers to a point. Does that mean they will bend over backward with a rod in their ass, like Ford and GM have to, no. And they clearly shouldn't have to. Working is a PRIVILEGE, not a right. If you get fired, go look for another job, or try not to get fired. SIMPLE AS THAT.
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Old 05-07-2008, 02:58 PM   #36
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I have one for OC_crook...

In order to get the job, it is MANDATORY the employee is a part of the union. So, you have the employee having to be a part of the union, or not having the job. Then, you have the company that has to answer to the union.

The employee can't go to management, the management cant go to the employee. It all has to be done through the union, and in accordance with the union.

Getting rid of the unions will do much more good than harm.

Ever see what happens when there's a strike, but someone just wants to work? It's not good. What's wrong with wanting to just work?

--kC
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:14 PM   #37
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I have one for OC_crook...

In order to get the job, it is MANDATORY the employee is a part of the union. So, you have the employee having to be a part of the union, or not having the job. Then, you have the company that has to answer to the union.

The employee can't go to management, the management cant go to the employee. It all has to be done through the union, and in accordance with the union.

Getting rid of the unions will do much more good than harm.

Ever see what happens when there's a strike, but someone just wants to work? It's not good. What's wrong with wanting to just work?

--kC
Wrong, i dont have to pay union dues. I live in a right to work state. You know what would happen if i chose to turn in my union card and stop paying union dues. The company would find the first thing they could and fire me.

Getting rid of unions would do more harm than good. You my friend are the naive one.

I see my employer break state and govt laws on a daily basis. I like how you fixed MY quote without first hand knowledge. I see it daily. You think you know whats its like but you dont.


You all think toyota is some sort of godsend to the automotive world and its like heaven working there. You dont know what goes on behind those doors. Its just like any other big business.


I dont even know why i come in here to defend unions anymore. Your all so ignorant its funny. Im sure you all would be quite mad if your jobs were all shipped over seas so someone else could get richer. I sure you give 110% everyday to right. Id like to know why some of you think if you go to college you somehow deserve more then someone who didnt.

Im done here, you guys with your college degrees making 40k a yr are just to damn smart for me. I prove you wrong yet you are still somehow right. I guess they didnt teach you when your beat your beat in college.


edit: Also i CAN go to managment. Just goes to show you how much you know.

Last edited by OC_crook; 05-07-2008 at 04:15 PM. Reason: KC knows nothing
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:32 PM   #38
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I guess I have a college degree now. Awesome! I wonder where I can hang it.

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Old 05-07-2008, 04:39 PM   #39
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The company would find the first thing they could and fire me.
Well usually you would be protected by having a skill or a job that was more costly to be done by someone without experience or some type of automation - maybe that's not the case, I don't personally know you. The problem is that the union is unfairly leveraged to protect jobs that would have been replaced a long time back. You will lose your job to a robot someday - I know I will. At that time, I'll go to another job and get another pay check. Farms replaced fields of people with tractors and automation - that's how economies move from being agricultural to manufacturing. Now our economy is moving to an information or services base and things are changing. 1950's manufacturing is dead - and we're coming to an era where 5 people can do the work of 15 thanks to computers and robotics.

It's basic supply and demand - and usually unions shift the lines. If I was the only person on the planet that knew how to do something, I could name my price. Now if a million college kids graduate and can do exactly what I can do - we don't all get to name our price and make unlimited money. The market would then dictate that the price goes way down as supply is up. Last I checked, we have more people today than yesterday - so that's an indication of where wages are going.

Last edited by capnchunk; 05-07-2008 at 04:42 PM. Reason: Forgot my supply and demand
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:46 PM   #40
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Toyota doesnt have to KEEP them happy. They can just fire them. You do realize they make almost as much ford and gm employees. The problem is they can fire them for anything. Say one day you werent feeling good and your production was a little low. In a unionized job you wouldnt have to worry about anything. At a non union job they could fire you or discipline you. That wouldnt be fair now would it.
There is a flip side to that argument and it is the biggest reason I hated my union. I was payed the same amount of money to do my job as all the non-hackers around me were payed to not do their job. The company couldn't fire all the worthless piles of garbage that had collected over the years.

There are union workers that know how to play the game and stay on medical leave for most of the year and put out shoddy work (when they are forced to work) and the company can't do anything about it as long as the employee is playing the game by the rules. It sucks for the company and the employees that actually want to put in an honest days work.
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:52 PM   #41
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Im sure you all would be quite mad if your jobs were all shipped over seas so someone else could get richer.
Uh........ Lots of white-collar jobs ARE being shipped overseas. The trend is not confined to manual labor. None of these jobs are "protected" by a mob that prevents the employer from hiring - and firing - whoever they see fit. Most employees keep their jobs based on merit.

_Jeff
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Old 05-07-2008, 05:38 PM   #42
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There is a flip side to that argument and it is the biggest reason I hated my union. I was payed the same amount of money to do my job as all the non-hackers around me were payed to not do their job. The company couldn't fire all the worthless piles of garbage that had collected over the years.

There are union workers that know how to play the game and stay on medical leave for most of the year and put out shoddy work (when they are forced to work) and the company can't do anything about it as long as the employee is playing the game by the rules. It sucks for the company and the employees that actually want to put in an honest days work.
Exactly. In a non-Union environment, those who actually care and would do the work would get raises and continued employment while those who were just sponging off the system would get the boot right quick.

THAT'S why Unions are a failure in this day and age. Maybe if people actually wanted to do the work or get paid properly for whatever they actually do, jobs wouldn't have to be shipped overseas to areas where the people are more than happy to make practically nothing for all the work they can get.

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Old 05-08-2008, 09:55 AM   #43
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Toyota doesnt have to KEEP them happy. They can just fire them. You do realize they make almost as much ford and gm employees. The problem is they can fire them for anything. Say one day you werent feeling good and your production was a little low. In a unionized job you wouldnt have to worry about anything. At a non union job they could fire you or discipline you. That wouldnt be fair now would it.
http://www.autoblog.com/tag/wages/

No, Toyota workers make ~50% less with benefits.

The point I was making with the illegal aliens wasn't about earnings. it was about how A guy will spend an 8+ hour shift on a roof reshingling in 100+ degree heat; Lots worse compared to the production line. Anyone can do assembly line work, but they chose not to.

99% of the jobs in this world operate on the principle of 'if times are slow, I can get rid of you'. They also operate on the principle of 'I can leave when I want to'. Seems fair enough.

As for overseas jobs, mine is done all over the world. I've trained engineers from Mexico to replace me in other positions I've held, at two different jobs.
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Old 05-08-2008, 10:12 AM   #44
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Typically the higher your education level (depending on major) the higher your income earning potential. Pretty much the entire point of obtaining a higher education, so by saying that college educated people expect to be paid more than non-college educated people is correct.

There are many ways you can make money without being college educated, run your own remodeling/home building company or mechanic shop is one, not having kids is another (well not spending money actually instead of making it but you get the idea). I know plenty of people who went to college and got a BA or BS is a non-marketable field and make crap money. And others that never went to college in $800,000 houses.

How much you make is purely up to your drive and ambition, that is why America is a great country, we are a capitalist country not a socialist one.
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Old 05-08-2008, 11:12 AM   #45
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Wrong, i dont have to pay union dues. I live in a right to work state. You know what would happen if i chose to turn in my union card and stop paying union dues. The company would find the first thing they could and fire me.

Getting rid of unions would do more harm than good. You my friend are the naive one.

I see my employer break state and govt laws on a daily basis. I like how you fixed MY quote without first hand knowledge. I see it daily. You think you know whats its like but you dont.


You all think toyota is some sort of godsend to the automotive world and its like heaven working there. You dont know what goes on behind those doors. Its just like any other big business.


I dont even know why i come in here to defend unions anymore. Your all so ignorant its funny. Im sure you all would be quite mad if your jobs were all shipped over seas so someone else could get richer. I sure you give 110% everyday to right. Id like to know why some of you think if you go to college you somehow deserve more then someone who didnt.

Im done here, you guys with your college degrees making 40k a yr are just to damn smart for me. I prove you wrong yet you are still somehow right. I guess they didnt teach you when your beat your beat in college.


edit: Also i CAN go to managment. Just goes to show you how much you know.

If the company would fire you the first chance they get then maybe your not needed to begin with. News Flash, companies do not want to fire people.. the cost to retrain and get you up to speed is not worth the loss of productivity, nor lost skill set. If your productivity is that low or your skill set is that easy, then your job is really not that important, and you can be replaced.

You seem to buy into the scare tactics that unions preach. You act like companies are just dying to fire all their employees. Its just not true. I am not guaranteed a job. If I have some poor performing days and I make mistakes, I can be let go at any time. I do not have the right to just slack off, and neglect my duties.

If your a worthwhile employee that adds value, then your job is secure. If your a lumbering oaf and leech on the company that just shows up and collects a paycheck, then dont let the door hit you on the way out...

Last edited by SCRAPPYDO; 05-08-2008 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 05-08-2008, 11:18 AM   #46
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It really looks like someone's been drinking the union's Propaganda koolaid.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:00 PM   #47
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http://www.autoblog.com/tag/wages/

No, Toyota workers make ~50% less with benefits.

The point I was making with the illegal aliens wasn't about earnings. it was about how A guy will spend an 8+ hour shift on a roof reshingling in 100+ degree heat; Lots worse compared to the production line. Anyone can do assembly line work, but they chose not to.

99% of the jobs in this world operate on the principle of 'if times are slow, I can get rid of you'. They also operate on the principle of 'I can leave when I want to'. Seems fair enough.

As for overseas jobs, mine is done all over the world. I've trained engineers from Mexico to replace me in other positions I've held, at two different jobs.

What you think those assembly line factorys are airconditioned. Its hotter in the warehouse then it is outside. Most assembly lines are on mandatory 9 hours anyway. Working on the assembly line IS harder then reshingling a roof.
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Old 05-08-2008, 06:57 PM   #48
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Wrong, i dont have to pay union dues. I live in a right to work state. You know what would happen if i chose to turn in my union card and stop paying union dues. The company would find the first thing they could and fire me.

Getting rid of unions would do more harm than good. You my friend are the naive one.

I see my employer break state and govt laws on a daily basis. I like how you fixed MY quote without first hand knowledge. I see it daily. You think you know whats its like but you dont.


You all think toyota is some sort of godsend to the automotive world and its like heaven working there. You dont know what goes on behind those doors. Its just like any other big business.


I dont even know why i come in here to defend unions anymore. Your all so ignorant its funny. Im sure you all would be quite mad if your jobs were all shipped over seas so someone else could get richer. I sure you give 110% everyday to right. Id like to know why some of you think if you go to college you somehow deserve more then someone who didnt.

Im done here, you guys with your college degrees making 40k a yr are just to damn smart for me. I prove you wrong yet you are still somehow right. I guess they didnt teach you when your beat your beat in college.


edit: Also i CAN go to managment. Just goes to show you how much you know.


I missed this one - this is one of the funniest things I have ever read!
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:41 PM   #49
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Toyota doesnt have to KEEP them happy. They can just fire them. You do realize they make almost as much ford and gm employees. The problem is they can fire them for anything. Say one day you werent feeling good and your production was a little low. In a unionized job you wouldnt have to worry about anything. At a non union job they could fire you or discipline you. That wouldnt be fair now would it.
Actually, Toyota employees make more money than GM and Ford. And no one in their right mind fires a good worker. If your production is low one day that's fine, if it's low for a month, they should fire them, cause there is probably some hard working person looking for work. If your production is low for a month constantly as a union employee, the employer really has no recourse.
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Old 05-08-2008, 08:36 PM   #50
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Actually, Toyota employees make more money than GM and Ford. And no one in their right mind fires a good worker. If your production is low one day that's fine, if it's low for a month, they should fire them, cause there is probably some hard working person looking for work. If your production is low for a month constantly as a union employee, the employer really has no recourse.
Actually they do have recourse, but it is a longer process then most and i agree with.
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