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Old 05-26-2006, 04:16 PM   #1
anthony_delprete84
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Default My Alignment Specs Before and After



I went to firestone to get my alignment done bc im eating away on the inside of my tires. They said i need to purchase a camber bolt kit like this one http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SPC-S...spagenameZWDVW then that will fix all problems. I purchased the lifetime alignment so i can go there 4 times a yr if i have to. Just wanted to make sure everything came out alot better. They will even adjust the camber bolts for no charge as well. What do ya think?

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Old 05-26-2006, 04:18 PM   #2
anthony_delprete84
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alright off to work, ill be back on around 1 am
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Old 05-26-2006, 06:11 PM   #3
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Errrr. Don't go back to that Firestone.

Apparently the guy who did it:
1. Doesn't know to loosen both strut bolts.
2. That toe has nothing to do with the camber bolts. Toe is adjusted with the tie rods.
3. Toe is the culprit in your abnormal wear - not camber.

Go elsewhere and request -1.0 in the front (easily possible with stock bolts) and get the back around -1.5 or -1.0 depending on how hard they try. Either way, ask for 0.00 total toe front and rear.
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Old 05-26-2006, 06:44 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoob5555
Errrr. Don't go back to that Firestone.

Apparently the guy who did it:
1. Doesn't know to loosen both strut bolts.
2. That toe has nothing to do with the camber bolts. Toe is adjusted with the tie rods.
3. Toe is the culprit in your abnormal wear - not camber.

Go elsewhere and request -1.0 in the front (easily possible with stock bolts) and get the back around -1.5 or -1.0 depending on how hard they try. Either way, ask for 0.00 total toe front and rear.
Wouldn't you want more camber in the front than the back for performance driving? Maybe something like -1.5 front, and -1 in the rear? I think they were reccomending the camber bolts because (well, I have an RS, so it maybe be different) the stock rear bolts don't allow for camber adjustment? Some suggestions anthony: http://northursalia.com/techdocs/align/align.html

From the look of that sheet he posted, it looks like one side is way out of spec (not sure, since I don't have a wrx).

Hold up. Acutally, that sheet says "outback sport: 2002-2005 sedan - except for turbo (wrx/sti)". Any chance this is the wrong settings for that alignment rack?

Also, question for anthony_delprete84: Did you recently do anything to your suspension? Like put lowering spings on or something? You'd get some toe out from a drop....
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Old 05-26-2006, 07:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpedal
Wouldn't you want more camber in the front than the back for performance driving? Maybe something like -1.5 front, and -1 in the rear? I think they were reccomending the camber bolts because (well, I have an RS, so it maybe be different) the stock rear bolts don't allow for camber adjustment? Some suggestions anthony: http://northursalia.com/techdocs/align/align.html

From the look of that sheet he posted, it looks like one side is way out of spec (not sure, since I don't have a wrx).

Hold up. Acutally, that sheet says "outback sport: 2002-2005 sedan - except for turbo (wrx/sti)". Any chance this is the wrong settings for that alignment rack?

Also, question for anthony_delprete84: Did you recently do anything to your suspension? Like put lowering spings on or something? You'd get some toe out from a drop....
This camber thing is a large factor in the "inherent understeer" of the WRX, isn't it? Well, that the 50/50 center diff and front weight bias.

Just got mine aligned today, maxing out the camber with ~ -1.0 front and -1.8 rear.
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Old 05-26-2006, 07:58 PM   #6
PJC1909
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They hardly did anything. You should ask for max -ive front camber and 0 toe all around.

Yes, you have to loosen both strut bolts in the front. The top front strut bolt has a lobe. The toe can be set better than it is. The rear camber is not adjustable. For the street it is not necessary. Caster is also not adjustable.
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Old 05-26-2006, 08:36 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJC1909
They hardly did anything...
what he said...

this is a good alignment - done on 5/17 at Soulspeed in Austin:

LF camber: -2.0 (I have camber/caster plates)
RF camber: -2.0
LF caster: +5.0
RF caster: +5.0
LF toe: .03 degrees
RF toe: .03 degrees
total toe: .06 degrees
steer ahead: 0.00

LR camber: -1.5 (I have camber bolts)
RR camber: -1.5
LR toe: 0.00
RR toe: 0.00
total toe: 0.00
thrust angle: 0.00

If you don't want to drive to Austin, you can try to get the idiots, er...techs at Firestone to get your alignment right. You should have them max out the front camber, somewhere between -1 and -1.5. The oem front bolts will allow for this adjustment. You also need to get them to zero the toe front and rear or it will take a toll on your tires. Unless you buy the camber bolts for the rear you will have to take what you get. Unless you buy camber/caster plates for the front you won't get over -1.5 degree of negative camber and caster is not adjustable.

I would hold them to giving you what you want, and if they can't do that I would get a refund and go to either Soulspeed in Austin or visit TireRack and find another TireRack recommended installer with great reviews. Here's a Goodyear dealer inside the Loop that I've used with great results in the past - but not for alignment. I would bet that they are pretty good, however based upon their knowledge and customer service levels:

http://www.tirerack.com/installer/In...=77002&place=0
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Old 05-26-2006, 09:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpedal
Wouldn't you want more camber in the front than the back for performance driving? Maybe something like -1.5 front, and -1 in the rear?
I don't think he's looking for a performance alignment. It's rare that a Firestone would do them on their lifetime plan. And clearly their alignment person is not an alignment person or the toe and camber would have been fixed. What he did was a sham. Head to Austin or ask around in your region's forum for suggestions closer to home.
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Old 05-27-2006, 03:06 AM   #9
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Man....not what i wanted to hear from all, but good to know. I bought the car lowered with 2,000 miles on it from Mcree Subaru about 1 yr ago. I dont know what springs were on it, but my tires only have 14,000 miles on them and the insides of the drivers side tires are completely bald. So i decided to go there since its $150 Lifetime of me owning the car Alignment. Do i need to put in the stock springs that i aquired THEN go back to the alignment shop? Or do i need to go back there and tell them to loosen BOTH front strut bolts? Do i go to the dealer and ask them to put on stock springs since i shouldnt be purchasing tires on my daily driver with only 14,000 miles with tires that are supposed to be guaranteed till 40,000 miles? Or just go to a different firestone since im pretty sure it works at all locations?

Anthony
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Old 05-27-2006, 03:11 AM   #10
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Got to a different shop, if they can't figure out how to adjust your toe or your camber, they need to find other employment. No need to go back to stock, you should be able to hit the specs you want, unless the car has been in an accident and improperly repaired.
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Old 05-27-2006, 03:13 AM   #11
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do i tell them to make sure to loosen BOTH bolts in the front or ANYTHING special i need to say besides get me on .0?
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Old 05-27-2006, 05:44 AM   #12
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You shouldn't NEED to tell them anything (other than the specs you want - and it's good to know that Firestone only aims to be within manufacturers specs). It's their job to perform the service for which you paid. If you want a performance alignment, talk to your locals to find out who has the best equipment and people. Firestone won't be high on anyone's list I'd bet.
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Old 05-27-2006, 09:45 AM   #13
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The last people I want to defend here are Firestone jabronies and what-not, but most cars don't have a camber adjustment. Some do, but some don't. BUT, with the alignment machine they got, they should have a tutorial to show how to adjust camber.

You need to go back, and give them some specs. Like -1.0 or -1.5 camber up front, and zero toe all the way around. I'm not sure if you've got camber bolts in the rear, but if you do, go with about -1.0.

I'd help you out, but I work in Plano, and I don't think you want to drive 4 hours to get an alignment. Soul Speed in Austin is good from what I hear. Ask your local Houston guys which alignment place they go to.



Mika
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Old 05-27-2006, 09:53 AM   #14
Jim Lewis
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Man, that's WAYYYY off , and you have adjustable front camber...-.2 right front camber, -1.9 left front, causes a HUGE pull to the right, but that gets fought by your toe settings.

Like these other guys said, it's easy to adjust front camber - they just have to cure their rectal/cranial inversions (pulls their heads from their buttocks).
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Old 05-27-2006, 09:53 AM   #15
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I have found my car handles best with -1.0 degree camber in front and -.5 degree rear . Tell them the exact readings you want...but be informed. read about the effects of negative camber....too much is not good, can wear tires quickly. if your not tracking the car regularly I wouldnt go too nuts on the negative camber. I dont autox at all, just drag race a couple times a year, but I want my car to be good on twisties....my .02
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Old 05-27-2006, 08:41 PM   #16
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Note that negative camber (or positive for that matter) doesn't affect tire wear. non-zero toe settings eat tires. I have lots of camber front and rear on my daily driver/autoxer with no abnormal wear. Zero toe is key.

But (most) Firestone shops will be resistant to setting things to your specs. They make lots of money on their lifetime alignment deal because they can set to manufacturer specs quickly. Anything more and you're (obviously) making them think too much and take too long to get you back out the door.
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Old 05-27-2006, 10:23 PM   #17
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Do i need to ask for my money back if they cant get the Toe 0 all the way around?
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Old 05-28-2006, 01:28 AM   #18
Jim Lewis
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"Note that negative camber (or positive for that matter) doesn't affect tire wear:Note that negative camber (or positive for that matter) doesn't affect tire wear"

Sure, it can, and quite radically. Not as bad as out-of-spec toe, though, but to say that negative camber doesn't cause tire wear is incorrect.
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Old 05-28-2006, 07:34 AM   #19
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Searching is your friend.
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Old 05-28-2006, 07:59 PM   #20
Patrick Olsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthony_delprete84
Just wanted to make sure everything came out alot better.
Did you even look at the numbers you posted when you said that? They hardly changed anything! That, my friend, is a garbage alignment! Did they say anything to you about the fact that the front left camber is "out of specification"? That's what that red -1.6 means, and I'm surprised they would even give you a lifetime alignment deal on a car that (theoretically) can't be aligned to specs. Did they point out that there's a 1.4deg difference in front camber? I'm sure the answer to both those questions is No, which is why this is a junk alignment. They put zero effort into it and took your money.

As the others have already stated, you want 0 toe all around for a normal daily driver car - that's what's going to make your tires the happiest. If they don't get it exactly on 0 that's OK, but it shouldn't be any more than maybe +/- 0.03 - that should be easily attainable without too much work.

Camber numbers will vary, but -1.0 to -1.5deg up front will be fine, and should be easily done if they aren't completely stoopid. That range will allow the car to handle pretty well, and won't wear out the tires (when matched up to that 0 toe).

Pat Olsen
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PS - Yet another example of "search before you shop". Alignments seem to be about the most commonly screwed up thing I see in this forum. Guys go get an alignment, and then (after they've already shelled out their $$$$) come ask what they should look for on a good alignment and where they should go to get it. Good luck getting it squared away, Anthony, and next time (for your own good) ask first!
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Old 05-29-2006, 01:43 AM   #21
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nice post dude
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Old 05-29-2006, 01:43 AM   #22
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excellent work dude
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Old 05-29-2006, 01:44 AM   #23
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nice work dude
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Old 05-29-2006, 01:45 AM   #24
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i like your work dude
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Old 05-29-2006, 01:45 AM   #25
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your are tow good dude
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