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Old 03-16-2009, 11:17 PM   #101
Butt Dyno
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Yeah - before the bushings, it was worse. I'll double check on Wednesday to be sure. I haven't dug through the archives yet for my really old alignments to see if this was an issue in the past, but that may be next.
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Old 03-16-2009, 11:39 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by ButtDyno View Post
Yeah, I'm just worried that with the car's past issues getting caster I may not be able to get as much as hoped.

I tried to tell him, but he's pretty stubborn

According to my tire temps, with GC canted plates and caster bushings, 2.8* should utilize the tire best(even temps).


On another note, lowering the rear helped my oversteer, but now it rubs(45 offset 17x8's, with only 235/40's mounted...245/45or40 coming soon) do i really gotta buy some 35mm offset wheels to keep from rubbing(without defacing my fender)??

Also, going from my street to autox camber settings takes toe from about 1/16" toe in to 1/4" toe out!!!!!!!!! Another cause for my oversteer...the front was so insanely responsive that the rear just couldn't keep up!



...cause its funny

Well, Dixie tour has concluded, the course was very fast in some places, a couple hard shut downs, some absolutely ballsey sections and about 50 seconds long both days(backwards day two). On saturday I pretty much drove like a normal event(6 runs to get this right), much too slow and too conservative. I was in 8th of 13 drivers for STX after saturday on a 53.3, while the leaders coned a 48.x and stood on a clean 50.1. Then on sunday with nothing to loose, I went for broke and tried to find the limit for every turn. I was so determined, that I kept my right foot planted and left foot braked for the first time ever. I had the 6th fastest time on sunday, but instead of being 1.3seconds behind i was only .1.

The competition was certainly stiff, BMW's took the top 4 spots, followed by some st civics, me and an rx8.

All in all i had a great time, meet a lot of awesome folks and all extremly talented and definately was my own limit...the car took everything without a problem.
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Old 03-16-2009, 11:53 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by penderperson View Post
I tried to tell him, but he's pretty stubborn

According to my tire temps, with GC canted plates and caster bushings, 2.8* should utilize the tire best(even temps).
I know, I know. I'm just worried I'm only going to end up with +5 or something, at which point I would want the extra static camber. I hope I'm wrong

While I'm on the rack I'm also going to figure out what raising/lowering the rear does to toe (if anything) and camber so that I can make more educated guesses about what to do if the car is too loose/too tight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penderperson View Post
On another note, lowering the rear helped my oversteer, but now it rubs(45 offset 17x8's, with only 235/40's mounted...245/45or40 coming soon) do i really gotta buy some 35mm offset wheels to keep from rubbing(without defacing my fender)??
Where is it rubbing - the fender or the strut? If you just want to experiment, you could put 5mm or 10mm spacers on there (not sure at what point you would need extended lugs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by penderperson View Post
Also, going from my street to autox camber settings takes toe from about 1/16" toe in to 1/4" toe out!!!!!!!!! Another cause for my oversteer...the front was so insanely responsive that the rear just couldn't keep up!
That is what concerns me about the street setting / autox setting thing. I personally would rather know exactly where the toe is and maybe eat a little more tire on the street, than not have the car with the same settings all the time. Plus I'm lazy and switching tires is already too much work

Dixie sounds like it would have been fun. The top folks in STX PAX'd really well - it looks like it's going to be a very tough class this year. And we still haven't seen a fully developed RX8 yet.
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Old 03-17-2009, 12:01 AM   #104
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I can attest to that.


Hope the setup works well, see you on Sunday!
Did you happen to co-drive the Tidewater Sports Car Club event in Virginia Beach in November?
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Old 03-17-2009, 12:12 AM   #105
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Where is it rubbing - the fender or the strut? If you just want to experiment, you could put 5mm or 10mm spacers on there (not sure at what point you would need extended lugs).
Its rubbing the rubber on the rear fenders.
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:10 PM   #106
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any ideas on the rears, i think i'm stuck with rolling or less offset :-(
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:38 PM   #107
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Did you happen to co-drive the Tidewater Sports Car Club event in Virginia Beach in November?
No, he just had a "moment" in a slalom at Fedex on a cold day. The Yoks definitely like to have some heat in them

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any ideas on the rears, i think i'm stuck with rolling or less offset :-(
If it's rubbing on the fender, I would think a +35 or something like that would make it worse. You could raise the rear back up - as little as possible - but add more negative camber so that it should have more clearance. That's what the hellaflush Socal kids do when they're running 225 width tires on 10" +20 wheels, so the same theory should work here The trick is finding the right combination of ride height and negative camber to give you the same balance you have now.

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Originally Posted by WJM View Post
ButtDyno: I've not forgotten about those pics. WJM have little time on hand!
No worries. I haven't posted the installed pics yet either!

Alignment tomorrow, first event on the 29th. It's killing me!



Awesome hardparking!

Last edited by Butt Dyno; 03-17-2009 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 03-18-2009, 10:56 AM   #108
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Dang it, wish I could go spoilerless.
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Old 03-18-2009, 11:44 AM   #109
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Posting live from Andrewtech!



Jamie setting the Aggressive to 11

So - I drove the car here with the plates maxed out and with the OE bolt (I think) maxed out. I wasn't sure how much negative camber I was going to have.

It turns out that as it sits, I have -3.5 on both sides. Woohoo! That was my goal.

The caster numbers are better than before - not awesome, but still a great improvement - about +2 per side. The driver's side is +5.1 and the passenger's side is +5.6. That is, as they say, good enough for government work. I'm now even more convinced that the Ground Control plates are the best ones on the market (and they have 60mm adapters now for you folks with the Euro setups).

The car is lower than it has been at 13.6" f/r, but the control arms are just a hair above parallel, and I have some caster now, so I think it will be okay. From talking with Brad, Iman and some others, and digging up some old forum posts, I think that for autox, some things work that are not optimal on paper. We'll see. Since the plates lower the car a little I'm probably in the same situation travel-wise as I would be with Cusco plates at a height of something like 14.25" or more.

Another neat experiment:

As posted previously, this year I am planning on using the rear ride height to play with the car's balance if the easier adjustments (tire pressures, shock settings) aren't enough - for instance, if it's raining, or really cold - or if the car is understeering and needs to be a little more lively. One thing I didn't know was what impact this would have on toe/camber as the car was raised.

The good news is that the impact appears pretty minimal. I raised the rear of the car three turns on the Ground Control perch, and the toe numbers went from -.18 and -.01 to -.15 and -.02. (That's in degrees, which is what the Hunter machine spits out. Turning that into inches involves math, and I am not good at math - but I feel somewhat confident that a couple hundredths of a degree ain't much.). Raising the car three turns also only added .1 degree of camber - from -1.6/-.5 to -1.5/-.4. I am not sure offhand how much three turns is in ride height, but IIRC, each row in the Ground Control perches is something like 1/8" so I'm guessing three turns = 3/8".

I'm starting the rear camber at -1.3 so that raising it will get it closer to -1 and lowering it will get it closer to -1.5. I figure that's a decent range to work with.

I'm also getting parts of the 90K service done, since the car is right at 95K miles now. I am too lazy/incompetent to do the plugs/fuel filter. Fortunately a lot of the 90K stuff was done in the last year or so one way or another (replacing the coolant when the radiator hose split, for instance).

I can't wait to get the summer tires back on...
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Old 03-18-2009, 12:16 PM   #110
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I've been enjoying this thread for a while now. Very well written. Good luck on your upcoming season!
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Old 03-18-2009, 12:22 PM   #111
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Dang it, wish I could go spoilerless.
You've seen Jake's pics, haven't you?
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...7#post25630387


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I've been enjoying this thread for a while now. Very well written. Good luck on your upcoming season!
Thanks! I'll need it
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Old 03-18-2009, 12:59 PM   #112
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Yeah, I know. And I have an STi model sitting in my garage. But I doubt my wife would be happy about me taking the spoiler off of it since she got it as a birthday present.
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:35 AM   #113
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Nice John. You going to CBP this sunday? I want to check this setup out. Got a few ideas/thoughts for you after catching up on here.

I to love the GC camber/caster plates and i see that you mentioned that they now fit Euro style coilovers. You know which ones? I wonder if those plates net more caster than the Vorshlag ones. I would def try to get as much caster as you can but I would start off by running the same amount of static camber that you did in the past then adjust from there. Static camber seems to be more important in auto-x. I think you will end up around the 3.5 degrees you are at now but it would be good to check.

Also since your car was so loose at the end of last year did you ever think of bumping up the rear camber alittle? Maybe 1.8-2 degrees? Or were you going to try to combat this with ride height settings?
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Old 03-19-2009, 10:14 AM   #114
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Nice John. You going to CBP this sunday? I want to check this setup out. Got a few ideas/thoughts for you after catching up on here.
I don't think I can go on Sunday unfortunately

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Originally Posted by bdi View Post
I to love the GC camber/caster plates and i see that you mentioned that they now fit Euro style coilovers. You know which ones?
Whatever takes a 60mm spring. I think this includes RCE/KW/TiC/AST:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...highlight=60mm
The ad says "*+2.5 Degree’s of Caster " - I don't see how that's possible without rotating them though.

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Originally Posted by bdi View Post
I wonder if those plates net more caster than the Vorshlag ones. I would def try to get as much caster as you can but I would start off by running the same amount of static camber that you did in the past then adjust from there. Static camber seems to be more important in auto-x. I think you will end up around the 3.5 degrees you are at now but it would be good to check.
Last year I was running -4 with about stock caster (+3 driver, +3.6 passenger). I don't think I can get back to -4 unless I use camber bolts in the front - everything looks like it's pretty much tapped out the way it sits.

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Originally Posted by bdi View Post
Also since your car was so loose at the end of last year did you ever think of bumping up the rear camber alittle? Maybe 1.8-2 degrees? Or were you going to try to combat this with ride height settings?
The car was loose at the end of last year, but in the middle it was good (Jeff can attest to this). That was with -1 camber, and with ride heights of 13.8/14.0. So I'm starting off this year with -1.3 and 13.6/13.6 so the car should be a bit more tame (colder conditions and all that). If it gets to May/June and more stick is available, I then have the option (if necessary) of raising the rear a little to get me back to running .2" higher in the rear like last year. I don't know if we have the same power oversteer issues that the STis do so I would be afraid that -2 would be too much.

Ten days left... going a little crazy now
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Old 03-19-2009, 11:09 AM   #115
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Bummer you cant make it up this weekend. So you canted the GC setup? and gained +2 degrees of caster? Thats really good. I want to see how they look...gotta post pics or ill check it at the next event.

Im hoping they fit the Vorshlag/AST coilovers. Thanks for the link.

Ya like I said i think you will end up around the -3.5 degrees of camber but it would be cool to start with the same settings as before with the only change being the added caster.

Did you need to use an aftermarket camber bolt to get that camber? Or is it all done with the plates and stock camber bolt?
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:36 PM   #116
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Bummer you cant make it up this weekend. So you canted the GC setup? and gained +2 degrees of caster? Thats really good. I want to see how they look...gotta post pics or ill check it at the next event.
Here's the full installation pics:
http://www.project-bdr.org/wp/wp-gal...2_itemId=31063

Just a couple:

Passenger side, compared to a similar pic from WJM (the king of the +8 caster setup)


Driver's side


Both


Quote:
Originally Posted by bdi View Post
Im hoping they fit the Vorshlag/AST coilovers. Thanks for the link.
Pretty sure they will - I think that was what the OP in that thread was after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdi View Post
Ya like I said i think you will end up around the -3.5 degrees of camber but it would be cool to start with the same settings as before with the only change being the added caster.
Yeah, in an ideal world I would have left everything else alone. I managed to go pretty much all of last year only changing one thing at a time, and it definitely helps you notice the changes.

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Originally Posted by bdi View Post
Did you need to use an aftermarket camber bolt to get that camber? Or is it all done with the plates and stock camber bolt?
All done with the plates and the stock bolts. So if it comes to that, I can get some bolts for the front too.
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Old 04-02-2009, 12:14 AM   #117
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Protune w/ Jorge from P&L Motorsports (aka RiftsWRX)

I'm still waiting on the dyno files, but Jorge said the car was well above the curve for a Stage 2 car - even on the STX map with no additional boost. IIRC, peak whp was 226 on the STX map and 236 on the stage 2 map. I'll update this post when I have all the info.

It feels great - and I haven't even touched the Stage 2 map yet. It's absolutely smoother and feels a lot better above 3K than the Cobb map.

Event #1: WDCR/SCCA @ Fedex, 3-28-2009

Went okay, not great though.

It had been raining the day before, and misting lightly up until about 10 AM. The 1st heat (STU) got the worst of it. Josh (piknockout) was super fast anyway, with FTD in the first heat (maybe the second, not sure).

Travis (ProDarwin) and I were 2nd heat. It was wet at first, but slowly drying from run to run. This situation sucks - it usually means your last run is the only one that matters.

We were on the RE01Rs - even if the Yokos weren't beat, the lack of tread would not have been that great in the wet. Starting point for pressures was 36/32. It seemed to work okay - the car felt pretty good in normal sweeper/slalom stuff.

I was pushing pretty hard out of the box - I hit 4 cones on my first run. Travis hit 7, or more. Second run I had a 62.8 but hit something somewhere. Third run, I knew I needed to get a decent safe run in so that I wouldn't have to spend my 4th run being safe - I ended up with a 63.6. The tires were starting to squeal as if things were dry, and everyone's times were dropping. Travis came through on his 3rd run with a 62.5, but spun pretty spectacularly after the finish. We hadn't been really monitoring the tires, and they had shot up to 39/36. My bad

On my fourth run I blew the first braking zone, and had to stay off the gas for a long time to tuck into the following slalom. This was a common theme for me - going into the braking zones way too fast, killing the brakes and often overshooting just enough to slow me down. For the rest of the run, I went into "oh ****" mode. That's the "I made a mistake and now I have to work extra hard to make up for it" mode. (If I could just trick myself into driving like this all the time, I would be a lot faster ) I ended up with a 62.5, making another pretty sizable braking mistake at the top of the course. Travis finished on a 62.6. Unfortunately the nice people in the Mini S came in 1st (62.2) and 2nd (62.5 but lower). They're cagey veterans in a well prepped car on shiny new RE11's, but I still hate losing to MINIs

Positive:
-Car feels good overall in the wet.
-For the most part I think I stayed ahead and backsided in slaloms.
-The tune has definitely helped the powerband.
-I came up with a good (but not great) run when I needed it.

Negative
-Car definitely susceptible to lift throttle oversteer. Next time: might have to disconnect the rear bar in the wet in the future - the 17mm rear bar worked out pretty well in the wet at the 2006 DC Pro (aka the Great Deluge).
-I overshot a lot of braking zones. Next time: "brake earlier, and less"
-I got on the gas too early coming out of the showcase and pushed out. I felt myself doing it, and asked myself why I was doing it, but still did it Next time: be more patient in the sweepers.
-I generally wasn't very dialed in. I didn't spend my time between runs concentrating on what parts of my run to fix, and forgot to check the tire pressures until after Travis's spin. Next time: uh, concentrate!

Next event is Hershey this Saturday. I should be on 245-40-17 Z1 Star Specs by then - they're going to be the wet tires this year, as well as the main tires until the AD08's are released (or, not released, as the case may be). This was based on a few things:
-They're proven - most data (I think) supports them being faster than the RE01Rs (plus the extra 10mm of width per tire). And I'm not sure we have any data yet that supports the RE11s being faster than the Z1's.
-They're relatively cheap. The *ideal* situation would be to have a full tread set of AD08s for rain, and a shaved set for dry (or RE11s). But I don't think I want to buy a full tread set at $1000ish, on top of a shaved set at $1100ish. At $600, the price is right!
-If I get stuck on them in the dry, they'll still be fast. The Toyos have shown themselves to be pretty magical in the rain, but not quite as magical in the dry. So I'm trading off pure wet performance for the risk of being stuck on the wrong tires.

Also - it looks like we'll have a MaxQData setup soon. Probably not for 4-4 but hopefully for 4-11.

w00t!

Last edited by Butt Dyno; 04-07-2009 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 04-02-2009, 08:11 AM   #118
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John,

In sweepers do you wait to begin unwinding the wheel before you begin modulating in power? Or did you just get impatient?

Congrats on your new sweet new tq curve. I'm sure it will help and give you a .

As far as the Dunlops I can't say enough. I had one set last year, full tread, from April till September. Did all the locals and National stuff on them. They were my wets and drys and were still fast when I took them off, albeit a little cooked.

And yeah, you could not beat the price.

Thumbs up on the data aquisition, something I'd very much like to have.

I wish I was running out east it seems like you guys have had quite a few events already.

Cheers
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:37 AM   #119
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John, the car looked pretty good out there...when it wasn't spinning and/or hitting cones. Travis's spin at the finish was spectacular though! And don't worry about the Old Fogey Racing Team, at least one of them. That run came out of nowhere, and I think he was aware of that as well. But it's glad to see that you've stepped back from the ledge. It was a practice event and a great time to figure out wet setups.

As far as the car setup, I obviously haven't driven it this year, but last year it definitely lent itself to a lot of throttle lift oversteer, even in the dry. I'm guessing that if you were able to control it in the wet enough, it should be good in dry conditions. Perhaps next time drop rear pressures a little more and drop the rear rebound a bit? Just some thoughts. I know I tend to like a car that understeers just a tad as it allows for more confident driving, but everyone has their own opinions. If it feels good to you, go for it!

I also agree with Greg, I think you'll be very happy with the Dunlops. The few times I've run on them they've felt fantastic. I was very tempted myself to pick up a set, but with Cy and Corey running the Stones I wanted to eliminate at least one variable. Haven't driven them in the wet, but since you're keeping them full tread you should be good to go.

Looking forward to 4/11 at Fed Ex though, especially if it can stay dry. And if you want more data to play with, feel free to toss that Maxqdata in my car too.
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:33 AM   #120
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In sweepers do you wait to begin unwinding the wheel before you begin modulating in power? Or did you just get impatient?
Most of the time it was fine, just this one spot where I was repeatedly impatient. Not sure why...

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Thumbs up on the data aquisition, something I'd very much like to have.
I thought I saw something in your car last year - a DL1 maybe? Or I'm really confused.

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Originally Posted by mccanixx View Post
I wish I was running out east it seems like you guys have had quite a few events already.
Not in DC, but Philly/Southern NJ did 4 winter events this year. I was actually *gasp* driving my WRX this winter, on stock struts, stock alignment and Blizzaks so I did not partake

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As far as the car setup, I obviously haven't driven it this year, but last year it definitely lent itself to a lot of throttle lift oversteer, even in the dry. I'm guessing that if you were able to control it in the wet enough, it should be good in dry conditions. Perhaps next time drop rear pressures a little more and drop the rear rebound a bit? Just some thoughts. I know I tend to like a car that understeers just a tad as it allows for more confident driving, but everyone has their own opinions. If it feels good to you, go for it!
I was actually trying to make the car a little tighter this year, to start out at least - "even" ride heights and more camber in the rear. Stupid wet autoxes. Hopefully I'll find out on Saturday.

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Looking forward to 4/11 at Fed Ex though, especially if it can stay dry. And if you want more data to play with, feel free to toss that Maxqdata in my car too.
I'll be in touch for sure...
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Old 04-02-2009, 11:16 AM   #121
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Oh...and where's the video camera? You ever get that thing fixed? Perhaps we can do a Maxqdata for in car video swap.
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Old 04-02-2009, 11:21 AM   #122
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Camera is totally MIA right now. I definitely had it in November, but something happened to it in the move to PA. It's probably in a box somewhere...
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Old 04-02-2009, 11:30 AM   #123
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At the DC pro last year I was driving with Jason. Because of that we had his DL1.

We're also driving together this year......so I should have access to it again.

And he already knows how to quickly extrapolate the data.......which is a bonus for me. I'm extremely impatient with such things.
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Old 04-02-2009, 12:11 PM   #124
piknockout
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Well if you need to you can use it in the mean time since we run in the same session, but different heats.
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:36 PM   #125
bdi
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Hey I see you guys are signed up for the 4/11 AI event! I think im going to make it to this one. Ill be at my sisters down there for easter anyway. Ill have my maxq. Also, Josh try to sweet talk a few members and maybe we can do some tire testing afterwards (similar to lastyear)! Ill have my D-lops and you with your Stones! i know Neary would def be interested. My D-lops have a season on them but they are still fast...i just need to flip them on the wheels.
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