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Old 02-08-2019, 02:19 PM   #1876
Mike_Feal
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Originally Posted by armt350 View Post
Maybe I missed it, but does anyone have the front motion ratio for the STI?
Anything MacPherson will be close to .96
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Old 02-13-2019, 01:34 AM   #1877
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Originally Posted by violentleaf View Post
Ok, it's good that you're doing your own research. The marketing for all the aftermarket parts on this platform is tough to weed through to find objective, fact based reviews.

Just understand that most mods, especially suspension, are a compromise. To gain performance, height adjustment, damper adjustment, etc you will lose somewhere else. Likely you will lose in daily comfort, longevity, maintenance, and cost of ownership. Your oem struts will far outlast any coilover in terms of miles driven on by maybe 2x and then will need to be rebuilt. They also really should be cleaned and maintained.

With cheaper coilovers, say anything under $2k, it makes more sense to re-buy a new set due to cost of rebuild. Often they cannot be rebuilt locally as well.

Have you thought about lowering springs? 1/4 of your budget and a ~1in drop. It is generally accepted that much lower will negatively impact handling.
Thanks, Im actually now looking into air suspensions. I was not considering lowering springs, but considering a ~drop maybe ill do that.
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Old 02-13-2019, 01:34 AM   #1878
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: I love the rce yellows. Very competent on the track for my skill level, great looking drop, mild for dd'ing, and affordable.
thank you!! ill look and research more about it. .
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:58 AM   #1879
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Is there a general consensus on how to set these cars up spring rate wise? There seems to be a lot of variance between having a higher rate in the front, in the rear, or matching spring rates f/r while looking at coilover manufacturer's spring rates.

(im coming from many years of driving FR cars where I've always had a lower rear spring rate)

Any advice or direction on where I can read up is appreciated!
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:50 AM   #1880
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Originally Posted by Sahbatage View Post
Is there a general consensus on how to set these cars up spring rate wise? There seems to be a lot of variance between having a higher rate in the front, in the rear, or matching spring rates f/r while looking at coilover manufacturer's spring rates.

(im coming from many years of driving FR cars where I've always had a lower rear spring rate)

Any advice or direction on where I can read up is appreciated!
Short answer: there is not a consensus.

Longer answer: Your spring rates will depend primarily on tire choice, what kind of driving you'll be doing, and driver's taste. Your other suspension mods (swaybars) matter too. In some cases you could go with softer rear springs with a larger rear swaybar, which has it's own advantages and disadvantages. Some stick with stock bars. There are some arguments to change the balance of spring rates as you change the overall stiffness of the suspension (i.e. with stiffer springs and grippier tires, you may like a stiffer rear end, or you may not). Even spring rates are a good safe choice for most people and most applications IMO...for more track focused people some experimentation could be beneficial.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:06 AM   #1881
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Originally Posted by AndyRoo View Post
Short answer: there is not a consensus.

Longer answer: Your spring rates will depend primarily on tire choice, what kind of driving you'll be doing, and driver's taste. Your other suspension mods (swaybars) matter too. In some cases you could go with softer rear springs with a larger rear swaybar, which has it's own advantages and disadvantages. Some stick with stock bars. There are some arguments to change the balance of spring rates as you change the overall stiffness of the suspension (i.e. with stiffer springs and grippier tires, you may like a stiffer rear end, or you may not). Even spring rates are a good safe choice for most people and most applications IMO...for more track focused people some experimentation could be beneficial.
Thanks for the reply! Having had softer springs/larger rear bar setups and the reverse on my previous RWD cars, I've grown to prefer a stiffer spring/smaller bar setup. My previous car was an RX-8 running 8k/5k which felt really good. This car is a daily that will see 4-6 track days/year and the occasional autocross and windy roads. Its going to be using Sport 4S (or similar in the future) tires for basically everything. Our roads aren't the most forgiving here so I have to find a nice compromise on my setups, hence the questions (first time owning/driving an awd platform).

I'll look more into it but thanks again for giving me a starting grounds (even rates). Maybe someone with some track experience can chime in a little if they come across this as well.


Last edited by Sahbatage; 02-20-2019 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:35 AM   #1882
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Originally Posted by Sahbatage View Post
Thanks for the reply! Having had softer springs/larger rear bar setups and the reverse on my previous RWD cars, I've grown to prefer a stiffer spring/smaller bar setup. My previous car was an RX-8 running 8k/5k which felt really good. This car is a daily that will see 4-6 track days/year and the occasional autocross and windy roads. Its going to be using Sport 4S (or similar in the future) tires for basically everything. Our roads aren't the most forgiving here so I have to find a nice compromise on my setups, hence the questions (first time owning/driving an awd platform).

I'll look more into it but thanks again for giving me a starting grounds (even rates). Maybe someone with some track experience can chime in a little if they come across this as well.

Difficult to compare across different cars since each car will have different motion ratios, weight distributions, etc. With Pilot Sport 4S, 8k/7k is a good starting point for an occasional track and auto-x car. A good alignment is very key.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:02 PM   #1883
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Originally Posted by Sahbatage View Post
Thanks for the reply! Having had softer springs/larger rear bar setups and the reverse on my previous RWD cars, I've grown to prefer a stiffer spring/smaller bar setup. My previous car was an RX-8 running 8k/5k which felt really good. This car is a daily that will see 4-6 track days/year and the occasional autocross and windy roads. Its going to be using Sport 4S (or similar in the future) tires for basically everything. Our roads aren't the most forgiving here so I have to find a nice compromise on my setups, hence the questions (first time owning/driving an awd platform).

I'll look more into it but thanks again for giving me a starting grounds (even rates). Maybe someone with some track experience can chime in a little if they come across this as well.


Are you trying to lower the car and if so how much?

If you stay near stock height you could run 6-7k springs and definitely have a nicer ride. Nicer than stock if theyíre valves accordingly.
If you want to lower it an inch and youíre going to drive it hard 8k square is a better option imo

If youíre pancaking the thing then youíll need even higher still, 12-16k
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:57 PM   #1884
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Thanks for the replies, AndyRoo & uofime!

The car will be lower than stock but roughly 1"- 1.5" or so. I was never a fan of slamming a car to the ground.

Im looking at Fortune Auto's with Swift Springs as I can choose the rates.
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:49 PM   #1885
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Originally Posted by Sahbatage View Post
Thanks for the replies, AndyRoo & uofime!

The car will be lower than stock but roughly 1"- 1.5" or so. I was never a fan of slamming a car to the ground.

Im looking at Fortune Auto's with Swift Springs as I can choose the rates.
I personally think 1.5” on these is too much and you’re going to be looking at higher spring rates to not bottom out of rough roads that low. I’m a weirdo though and like my wheels centered in the wells, which for these cars is like 0.5-0.75 lower than stock.

Either way, if you’re ordering fortunes call and talk to a dealer. The good ones can do custom valving profiles in addition to spring rates.

Buddy of mine, Dewey, at six star motor sports sets up a lot of these

I know Geoff at Cygnus performance does too.

Give one of those guys a call.

Last edited by uofime; 02-22-2019 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 02-22-2019, 06:40 PM   #1886
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I just ordered a set of coilovers.

Spec with:
Full Spectrum camber/caster plates using Vorshlag carriers and perch (includes Torrington bearing)
Vorshlag rear plates and perch (includes Torrington bearing)
7x2.25 650 Front
7x2.25 700 Rear

I have everything in hand except the front struts and rear shocks, those are still being assembled.

In the mean time, I've been gathering notes and I have a few questions:

1. Rake - What rake is everyone using?
2. Droplinks - I can find adjustable rear links with monoballs, but I can't find any adjustable front with monoballs. Anyone know of a reputable manufacturer that makes front monoball adjustable links?
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Old 02-22-2019, 11:57 PM   #1887
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Originally Posted by Boggie1688 View Post
I just ordered a set of coilovers.

Spec with:
Full Spectrum camber/caster plates using Vorshlag carriers and perch (includes Torrington bearing)
Vorshlag rear plates and perch (includes Torrington bearing)
7x2.25 650 Front
7x2.25 700 Rear

I have everything in hand except the front struts and rear shocks, those are still being assembled.

In the mean time, I've been gathering notes and I have a few questions:

1. Rake - What rake is everyone using?
2. Droplinks - I can find adjustable rear links with monoballs, but I can't find any adjustable front with monoballs. Anyone know of a reputable manufacturer that makes front monoball adjustable links?
Iíve seen to many adjustable links break to want to ever put a set on my car.

Seriously is binding ever actually an issue to where the adjustable length is actually necessary on this chassis?
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Old 02-23-2019, 01:21 AM   #1888
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Originally Posted by uofime View Post
Iíve seen to many adjustable links break to want to ever put a set on my car.

Seriously is binding ever actually an issue to where the adjustable length is actually necessary on this chassis?
It's about sway bar preload. The car will be corner balanced which means each corner will be at slightly different heights. A fix link means that which ever corner is slightly lower will equate to bar preload.

Id like to take advantage of the adjustability I'm paying for with my parts, so adjustable links are a must. It just seems like no one has monoball fronts. I suspect that the eye to eye length is too short, and that standard rod ends cannot accommodate that length.

Fyi, most people have their adjustable links installed wrong. Almost 80% of the people I meet install the link with the car in droop. You really should be attaching the link when the car on the ground, with the link shank passing through the bar with zero interference


Oh if anyone has stock links laying around, any chance you can measure the front lengths from shank to shank? I'm eyeballing it as 40-55mm. Shortest rod end I've found so far is 45mm.

Last edited by Boggie1688; 02-23-2019 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 02-23-2019, 04:41 PM   #1889
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Originally Posted by Boggie1688 View Post
It's about sway bar preload. The car will be corner balanced which means each corner will be at slightly different heights. A fix link means that which ever corner is slightly lower will equate to bar preload.

Id like to take advantage of the adjustability I'm paying for with my parts, so adjustable links are a must. It just seems like no one has monoball fronts. I suspect that the eye to eye length is too short, and that standard rod ends cannot accommodate that length.

Fyi, most people have their adjustable links installed wrong. Almost 80% of the people I meet install the link with the car in droop. You really should be attaching the link when the car on the ground, with the link shank passing through the bar with zero interference


Oh if anyone has stock links laying around, any chance you can measure the front lengths from shank to shank? I'm eyeballing it as 40-55mm. Shortest rod end I've found so far is 45mm.
Iíve never seen preloading roll bars when corner balancing, just the coil over. Iím no expert though. I suppose it makes sense that you could.
I have seen that done for drag racing to keep the car straight on launch.
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Old 02-23-2019, 07:25 PM   #1890
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Iíve never seen preloading roll bars when corner balancing, just the coil over. Iím no expert though. I suppose it makes sense that you could.
I have seen that done for drag racing to keep the car straight on launch.
Still hunting for adjustable front links. In case anyone is wondering, eye to eye is 73mm. Standard male and female rod end net a range of 54-65mm.

Gonna wait till i get everything installed and ride height set. Then take some real world measurements and see what kind of range I'll need from the endlink. Ball parking, I think this is doable.

Last edited by Boggie1688; 02-23-2019 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 02-23-2019, 08:10 PM   #1891
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Spherical bearing endlinks tend to not hold up well in the long run. Whiteline used to make some and they didn't work out very well. And yes, they are too short to have two rod ends with reversed threads and a turnbuckle, you'll have to do a make and female end and unbolt/rotate to adjust them. Even the whiteline adjustables, etc, are like that. Or you'd probably be fine with something like whiteline's adjustable ball in socket links.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uofime View Post
I’ve never seen preloading roll bars when corner balancing, just the coil over. I’m no expert though. I suppose it makes sense that you could.
I have seen that done for drag racing to keep the car straight on launch.
It's not to preload them, it's to "UN-preload" them. Bars and endlinks aren't perfectly straight, and spring perch/suspension heights are going to be in slightly different places on each side to have a corner balanced car.
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Old 02-23-2019, 08:42 PM   #1892
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Originally Posted by jamal View Post
Spherical bearing endlinks tend to not hold up well in the long run. Whiteline used to make some and they didn't work out very well. And yes, they are too short to have two rod ends with reversed threads and a turnbuckle, you'll have to do a make and female end and unbolt/rotate to adjust them. Even the whiteline adjustables, etc, are like that. Or you'd probably be fine with something like whiteline's adjustable ball in socket links.



It's not to preload them, it's to "UN-preload" them. Bars and endlinks aren't perfectly straight, and spring perch/suspension heights are going to be in slightly different places on each side to have a corner balanced car.
Car already has sphericals on the rear lca. As long as they are relatively easy to source, nothing obscure, I'm ok with it.

Turnbuckles are definitely a no go. Not a problem. I pieced together rod ends from Aurora and FK. They have roughly a 55-65 adjustment range. Assuming 1.5 x diameter thread engagement. 1:1 and I can get it to 70 which is super close to stock.

I only plan on a 1 inch drop, but I'm not sure how much shorter the endlink needs to become. Hope to have everything in hand in 2-3 weeks, installed on the car by mid March. Then I can fiddle with the endlinks.
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:22 PM   #1893
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For anyone who is interested:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

I think this is just about everything you'll need to build your own endlinks using FK bearings with PTFE liners.

Few things to note:
Misalignment spacers for the front should be just fine.
Rear will need the same spacers but longer. You can likely take up the slack with washers. Simple, cheap and effective.
Min length is potentially and issue for the front of the car, especially on cars that are very low. However, you can cut the rod ends to help create a smaller endlink.
Max length assumes 1.5x bolt diameter to maintain max load rating.

Each endlink would cost roughly $75 to make if you order the parts and buy the hardware yourself. A pair per axle $150, and the entire car $300.

I'm not certain about using a 2.0 thread pitch on the end rods. But that is all FK has to offer and ptfe aurora rod ends are much more expensive. One full rotation equals 2mm of change... Probably not that terrible.

Last edited by Boggie1688; 02-24-2019 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 02-28-2019, 12:38 AM   #1894
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Originally Posted by uofime View Post
I personally think 1.5Ē on these is too much and youíre going to be looking at higher spring rates to not bottom out of rough roads that low. Iím a weirdo though and like my wheels centered in the wells, which for these cars is like 0.5-0.75 lower than stock.

Either way, if youíre ordering fortunes call and talk to a dealer. The good ones can do custom valving profiles in addition to spring rates.

Buddy of mine, Dewey, at six star motor sports sets up a lot of these

I know Geoff at Cygnus performance does too.

Give one of those guys a call.
Did some measuring and turns out I agree with you. 1" would be the max I'd want on this thing.

I went ahead with the 8k square setup w/ swift springs from FA. Ordered some control arms as well. Would I need rear toe arms if I'm shooting for -1.8F/-1.5 rear camber? I'd want the toe zeroed out all around.

Any caster recs?

Thanks for all the insight!
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:56 AM   #1895
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Originally Posted by Sahbatage View Post
Did some measuring and turns out I agree with you. 1" would be the max I'd want on this thing.

I went ahead with the 8k square setup w/ swift springs from FA. Ordered some control arms as well. Would I need rear toe arms if I'm shooting for -1.8F/-1.5 rear camber? I'd want the toe zeroed out all around.

Any caster recs?

Thanks for all the insight!

Yes, you will likely need rear toe arms if you try to lower your camber that much.

I personally leave my rear camber at -2.0į and instead bump the front to -2.5į, gives the car a great handling balance and for track driving or R-s4 tires at least the front needs that much camber to avoid wearing unevenly.

Iíve also put 15000 street miles on the car with no real wear issues from the extra front camber there either.

IMO this is the better way since more camber all around gives better cornering grip and thereís no balance penalty as long as you can achieve the front number. Plus no need for aftermarket toe adjustment

Depending on what sort of camber plate you use caster may still not be adjustable. Factory FA plates for example do not allow adjustment of caster.

There are a couple companies that do sell caster adjustable plates though, I know full spectrum performance ones are one example.

Personally I have whiteline comC strut tops on my struts and they do give something like an extra half degree of caster. I made a couple changes when those went on but overall I do like the feel of the extra caster (at least I think thatís part of what improved it)
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Old 03-05-2019, 12:33 PM   #1896
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I apologize in advance if this question was asked somewhere in this thread, but at what point do you need adjustable rear control arms to correct camber? For example, I have been considering Feal 441 coils for my 15 STi limited and only plan to drop the rear .25-.50in and the front .75in to level it out. Don't want to buy the adjustable control arms if I really don't need them. Thanks.
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Old 03-05-2019, 12:47 PM   #1897
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Originally Posted by Eagleye15 View Post
I apologize in advance if this question was asked somewhere in this thread, but at what point do you need adjustable rear control arms to correct camber? For example, I have been considering Feal 441 coils for my 15 STi limited and only plan to drop the rear .25-.50in and the front .75in to level it out. Don't want to buy the adjustable control arms if I really don't need them. Thanks.

There is not "point" at which you need adjustable LCAs. The real question is do you want to be able to tune the cars handling characteristic.

We know the max front camber is roughly -1.5 and stock rear camber is -2.1 Having more rear negative camber means there is a higher max lateral grip compared to the front. As a result, you take a corner and the fronts will hit their peak grip way before the rear. The front of the car will start to wash out or push, IE: understeer.

Lowering the car equally all around, and not touching anything should roughly increase negative camber all around equally. So the relatively handling of the car stays the same, understeer at the limit. If your cool with this, you don't need lower control arms to dial back negative camber.

Personally my car is currently set to .4 degree differential front to back. Right now the car is at -2.1 F / -1.7 R. Based on tire wear, I want to dial in an additional .5 all around and hit -2.6 F / -2.2 R. I may increase the differential slightly depending on how the car handles at the track.

Don't forget camber is great for cornering, bad for straight line. We increase negative camber so that when the car rolls in a corner, the tire rolls into a optimally large contact patch thus providing us maximum lateral grip. However, when you are driving in a straight line the contact patch is very small because the car is never rolling side to side. As a result, having a lot of negative camber can adversely effect straight line braking and acceleration. It will also have a negative effect on your tires ability to evacuate rain, simply because the channels of the tire might never contact the water. You might see 1. Squirmy braking or decrease braking ability 2. Trouble finding traction from a dig 3. Propensity to want to hydroplane when hitting standing water.
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Old 03-05-2019, 12:56 PM   #1898
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There is not "point" at which you need adjustable LCAs. The real question is do you want to be able to tune the cars handling characteristic.

We know the max front camber is roughly -1.5 and stock rear camber is -2.1 Having more rear negative camber means there is a higher max lateral grip compared to the front. As a result, you take a corner and the fronts will hit their peak grip way before the rear. The front of the car will start to wash out or push, IE: understeer.

Lowering the car equally all around, and not touching anything should roughly increase negative camber all around equally. So the relatively handling of the car stays the same, understeer at the limit. If your cool with this, you don't need lower control arms to dial back negative camber.

Personally my car is currently set to .4 degree differential front to back. Right now the car is at -2.1 F / -1.7 R. Based on tire wear, I want to dial in an additional .5 all around and hit -2.6 F / -2.2 R. I may increase the differential slightly depending on how the car handles at the track.

Don't forget camber is great for cornering, bad for straight line. We increase negative camber so that when the car rolls in a corner, the tire rolls into a optimally large contact patch thus providing us maximum lateral grip. However, when you are driving in a straight line the contact patch is very small because the car is never rolling side to side. As a result, having a lot of negative camber can adversely effect straight line braking and acceleration. It will also have a negative effect on your tires ability to evacuate rain, simply because the channels of the tire might never contact the water. You might see 1. Squirmy braking or decrease braking ability 2. Trouble finding traction from a dig 3. Propensity to want to hydroplane when hitting standing water.
I appreciate the thorough response. Based on what you are saying I will want the adjustability, so that answers that.

Is there a direct known relationship between how much the car is lowered and the effect it has on camber? Let's just say for reference we use your numbers of -2.1 F / -1.7 R. What would be the expected camber with a minor drop of .5in F / .25in R?
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Old 03-05-2019, 01:35 PM   #1899
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I appreciate the thorough response. Based on what you are saying I will want the adjustability, so that answers that.

Is there a direct known relationship between how much the car is lowered and the effect it has on camber? Let's just say for reference we use your numbers of -2.1 F / -1.7 R. What would be the expected camber with a minor drop of .5in F / .25in R?
There is roughly, but I don't know what the "ratio" would be. Plus, what does it matter. What it will be, will be. You have zero ability to effect this and if you want to change it, you know what you need.
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Old 03-05-2019, 01:41 PM   #1900
Eagleye15
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Originally Posted by Boggie1688 View Post
There is roughly, but I don't know what the "ratio" would be. Plus, what does it matter. What it will be, will be. You have zero ability to effect this and if you want to change it, you know what you need.
Yes I understand that it will be what it will be. I was just curious to see if "what it would be" was within an acceptable range for tire wear since I am not racing regularly. Thank you for your input.
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