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Old 07-02-2008, 02:48 AM   #1
Pearl04
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Unhappy Help a nubie with knock

I'm new to open source tunning and I don't know how to tune for knock nor boost. I have an 04 WRX. I just put on a cattless turbo back exaust and a stock STI cattless up pipe. I flashed to stage two and I've done some logging in 3rd gear. I hope I have logged all the correct parameters. Let me know if I can provide more info or data for anyone to help me out.

I've got some knock problems and don't know where to start resolving that. And my target boost is 15 but I'm only pulling 10ish. Thanks for all your help.

http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/8cb586a88a_0.01MB

P.S. How does one post a log directly into a thread?
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Old 07-03-2008, 12:55 PM   #2
06rexwagon
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PM'd you.
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Old 07-05-2008, 03:17 PM   #3
Josias
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Is it a must to log after reflashing?
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:01 AM   #4
bcblues
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I don't see a knock problem. You did see a tiny event on throttle tip in, but I don't think that is too unusual for flooring the throttle at low rpm. I bet you don't see any negative KC in normal driving (like flooring it while cruising).

Josias: It is always wise to log after altering your maps, else you don't know the results of your tuning!
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Old 07-07-2008, 03:20 PM   #5
Pearl04
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Thanks for the help. You're right about the knock I think. I do get some around town a bit but not too much. This pull isn't too bad with the knock but I have had it read as much as 3.15 ish.

Now, what can I do about the lack of manifold air pressure?
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Old 07-07-2008, 04:36 PM   #6
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to past file directly in, change column titles to 5 characters or less then type [ code ] "paste log here" [ /code ] take the spaces out before and after the [ ]

Something is definately wrong with your boost. Did you change any of the boost control tubing? Seems like you took your restrictor pill out. 100% WGDC and only 10psi....hmm.

Code:
LOAD	RPM	MRP	WGDC	IGN	KC	FBKC	FLKC	IDC	MAFg	MAFv	THROT
0.33	2446	-6.96	49.02	34	0	0	0	5.74	13.28	1.88	7.06
0.35	2420	-6.67	50.2	35.5	0	0	0	6.2	13.93	1.9	7.45
0.37	2449	-6.38	45.88	36.5	0	0	0	6.27	14.95	1.92	7.84
0.38	2439	-6.09	47.45	39	0	0	0	6.24	15.6	1.96	8.24
0.39	2440	-5.8	47.06	40	0	0	0	6.25	16.15	1.98	8.63
0.98	2478	-1.31	51.37	35.5	-0.5	0	-0.35	11.1	40.37	2.6	37.25
0.89	2486	1.02	66.27	34	9	0	-0.35	15.38	38.07	2.54	100
0.98	2513	2.03	86.27	31.5	8.5	0	-1.41	16.24	41.3	2.6	100
1.03	2570	2.61	100	28.5	8.5	0	-1.41	17	44.04	2.64	100
1.11	2633	3.63	100	25	8.5	0	-1.41	19.1	48.33	2.72	100
1.16	2651	4.64	100	21.5	9	0	-1.05	19.91	52.45	2.78	100
1.25	2708	5.37	100	19	9	0	-1.05	21.38	56.35	2.86	100
1.37	2756	6.53	100	18	10	0	0	23.52	62.76	2.94	100
1.41	2820	7.55	100	16.5	10	0	0	25.27	68.61	2.98	100
1.47	2898	8.13	100	16	10	0	0	26.58	71.23	3.04	100
1.5	2969	8.56	100	16	10	0	0	27.23	73.86	3.08	100
1.49	3020	8.56	100	16	10	0	0	27.91	74.43	3.1	100
1.48	3090	8.56	100	16.5	10	0	0	28.35	76.35	3.12	100
1.49	3168	8.71	100	16.5	10	0	0	29.07	77.73	3.12	100
1.47	3221	8.71	100	17	10	0	0	29.53	79.93	3.14	100
1.5	3262	8.71	100	17	10	0	0	29.92	81.36	3.18	100
1.5	3363	8.85	100	17	10	0	0	30.85	83.81	3.2	100
1.5	3414	9	100	16.5	9	0	-0.7	32.03	86.76	3.24	100
1.53	3488	9.14	100	16.5	9	0	-0.7	33.49	89.1	3.28	100
1.57	3552	9.29	100	16.5	9	0	-0.7	34.86	92.01	3.28	100
1.58	3618	9.29	100	16.5	9	0	-0.7	36.48	95.83	3.34	100
1.6	3691	9.29	100	16.5	9	0	-0.7	37.01	98.36	3.38	100
1.63	3754	9.29	100	16.5	9	0	-0.7	38.44	100.99	3.36	100
1.62	3830	9.43	100	16.5	9.5	0	-0.35	39.22	103.64	3.38	100
1.61	3880	9.43	100	17	9.5	0	-0.35	39.73	104.13	3.42	100
1.63	3983	9.43	100	17	9.5	0	-0.35	40.78	106.55	3.4	100
1.61	4038	9.58	100	17.5	10	0	0	42.22	108.02	3.44	100
1.62	4112	9.58	100	17.5	10	0	0	43.86	111.04	3.48	100
1.63	4188	9.58	100	17.5	10	0	0	44.67	112.34	3.5	100
1.6	4216	9.43	100	17.5	10	0	0	44.97	112.61	3.52	100
1.63	4293	9.43	100	17.5	10	0	0	46.71	116.78	3.54	100
1.63	4345	9.58	100	17.5	10	0	0	48.2	118.34	3.56	100
1.64	4422	9.72	100	17.5	10	0	0	50.94	125.63	3.64	100
1.67	4512	9.87	100	17.5	10	0	0	51.98	125.07	3.62	100
1.7	4559	9.87	100	17.5	10	0	0	52.52	129.26	3.66	100
1.69	4612	10.01	100	17.5	10	0	0	53.14	129.54	3.66	100
1.69	4723	10.01	100	17.5	10	0	0	55.41	132.33	3.68	100
1.69	4752	10.01	100	17.5	10	0	0	55.76	133.72	3.68	100
1.67	4810	9.87	100	18	10	0	0	55.88	134.01	3.68	100
1.65	4905	9.72	100	18.5	10	0	0	57.55	136.62	3.72	100
1.67	4928	9.72	100	19	10	0	0	57.82	137.52	3.72	100
1.68	5027	9.87	100	17.5	9	0	-1.05	60.29	142	3.74	100
1.7	5098	10.01	100	18	9	0	-1.05	60.91	144.1	3.78	100
1.73	5130	10.16	100	17.5	9	0	-1.05	62.38	149.88	3.8	100
1.73	5222	10.16	100	18	9	0	-1.05	63.51	152.38	3.84	100
1.75	5248	10.3	100	19	9	0	-1.05	64.94	153.02	3.84	100
1.76	5312	10.3	100	19	9	0	-1.05	66.85	156.23	3.86	100
1.73	5399	10.45	100	19	9	0	-1.05	66.81	155.91	3.86	100
1.73	5474	10.45	100	20	9	0	-0.7	68.9	160.08	3.9	100
1.73	5527	10.3	100	21	9	0	-0.7	69.56	161.04	3.9	100
1.76	5560	10.3	99.22	21.5	9	0	-0.7	69.98	162.65	3.92	100
1.73	5605	10.3	98.43	22	9	0	-0.7	70.92	163.29	3.92	100
1.75	5673	10.3	97.25	22.5	9	0	-0.7	71.4	165.93	3.94	100
1.71	5764	10.16	96.86	22.5	9	0	-0.7	72.56	164.58	3.94	100
1.71	5841	10.16	95.69	22.5	9	0	-0.7	73.52	167.99	3.96	100
1.69	5850	10.16	93.73	23.5	9	0	-0.7	72.38	165.26	3.94	100
1.73	5901	10.01	90.2	23	9	0	-0.7	74.27	170.05	3.98	69.02
1.43	5928	1.89	58.43	27.5	10	0	0	41.9	98.81	3.34	23.53
0.42	5976	-4.93	43.14	40	0	0	0	19.12	42.26	2.58	7.84
0.19	5896	-8.42	0	11.5	0	0	0	8.8	19.05	2.08	0
0.19	5924	-9	0	11.5	0	0	0	8.85	18.44	2.06	0
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Old 07-07-2008, 09:14 PM   #7
bcblues
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What have you altered in your ROM? Have you altered the MAF Limits, or MAF Sensor Scaling tables? You definitely have a boost control issue of some sort.

Have you checked you wastegate arm adjustment? Make sure you don't have a boost/vacuum leak in your lines between the turbo, the BCS and the intake.
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Old 07-07-2008, 10:40 PM   #8
AruisDante
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
to past file directly in, change column titles to 5 characters or less then type [ code ] "paste log here" [ /code ] take the spaces out before and after the [ ]

Something is definately wrong with your boost. Did you change any of the boost control tubing? Seems like you took your restrictor pill out. 100% WGDC and only 10psi....hmm.

Code:
LOAD	RPM	MRP	WGDC	IGN	KC	FBKC	FLKC	IDC	MAFg	MAFv	THROT
0.33	2446	-6.96	49.02	34	0	0	0	5.74	13.28	1.88	7.06
0.35	2420	-6.67	50.2	35.5	0	0	0	6.2	13.93	1.9	7.45
0.37	2449	-6.38	45.88	36.5	0	0	0	6.27	14.95	1.92	7.84
0.38	2439	-6.09	47.45	39	0	0	0	6.24	15.6	1.96	8.24
0.39	2440	-5.8	47.06	40	0	0	0	6.25	16.15	1.98	8.63
0.98	2478	-1.31	51.37	35.5	-0.5	0	-0.35	11.1	40.37	2.6	37.25
0.89	2486	1.02	66.27	34	9	0	-0.35	15.38	38.07	2.54	100
0.98	2513	2.03	86.27	31.5	8.5	0	-1.41	16.24	41.3	2.6	100
1.03	2570	2.61	100	28.5	8.5	0	-1.41	17	44.04	2.64	100
1.11	2633	3.63	100	25	8.5	0	-1.41	19.1	48.33	2.72	100
1.16	2651	4.64	100	21.5	9	0	-1.05	19.91	52.45	2.78	100
1.25	2708	5.37	100	19	9	0	-1.05	21.38	56.35	2.86	100
1.37	2756	6.53	100	18	10	0	0	23.52	62.76	2.94	100
1.41	2820	7.55	100	16.5	10	0	0	25.27	68.61	2.98	100
1.47	2898	8.13	100	16	10	0	0	26.58	71.23	3.04	100
1.5	2969	8.56	100	16	10	0	0	27.23	73.86	3.08	100
1.49	3020	8.56	100	16	10	0	0	27.91	74.43	3.1	100
1.48	3090	8.56	100	16.5	10	0	0	28.35	76.35	3.12	100
1.49	3168	8.71	100	16.5	10	0	0	29.07	77.73	3.12	100
1.47	3221	8.71	100	17	10	0	0	29.53	79.93	3.14	100
1.5	3262	8.71	100	17	10	0	0	29.92	81.36	3.18	100
1.5	3363	8.85	100	17	10	0	0	30.85	83.81	3.2	100
1.5	3414	9	100	16.5	9	0	-0.7	32.03	86.76	3.24	100
1.53	3488	9.14	100	16.5	9	0	-0.7	33.49	89.1	3.28	100
1.57	3552	9.29	100	16.5	9	0	-0.7	34.86	92.01	3.28	100
1.58	3618	9.29	100	16.5	9	0	-0.7	36.48	95.83	3.34	100
1.6	3691	9.29	100	16.5	9	0	-0.7	37.01	98.36	3.38	100
1.63	3754	9.29	100	16.5	9	0	-0.7	38.44	100.99	3.36	100
1.62	3830	9.43	100	16.5	9.5	0	-0.35	39.22	103.64	3.38	100
1.61	3880	9.43	100	17	9.5	0	-0.35	39.73	104.13	3.42	100
1.63	3983	9.43	100	17	9.5	0	-0.35	40.78	106.55	3.4	100
1.61	4038	9.58	100	17.5	10	0	0	42.22	108.02	3.44	100
1.62	4112	9.58	100	17.5	10	0	0	43.86	111.04	3.48	100
1.63	4188	9.58	100	17.5	10	0	0	44.67	112.34	3.5	100
1.6	4216	9.43	100	17.5	10	0	0	44.97	112.61	3.52	100
1.63	4293	9.43	100	17.5	10	0	0	46.71	116.78	3.54	100
1.63	4345	9.58	100	17.5	10	0	0	48.2	118.34	3.56	100
1.64	4422	9.72	100	17.5	10	0	0	50.94	125.63	3.64	100
1.67	4512	9.87	100	17.5	10	0	0	51.98	125.07	3.62	100
1.7	4559	9.87	100	17.5	10	0	0	52.52	129.26	3.66	100
1.69	4612	10.01	100	17.5	10	0	0	53.14	129.54	3.66	100
1.69	4723	10.01	100	17.5	10	0	0	55.41	132.33	3.68	100
1.69	4752	10.01	100	17.5	10	0	0	55.76	133.72	3.68	100
1.67	4810	9.87	100	18	10	0	0	55.88	134.01	3.68	100
1.65	4905	9.72	100	18.5	10	0	0	57.55	136.62	3.72	100
1.67	4928	9.72	100	19	10	0	0	57.82	137.52	3.72	100
1.68	5027	9.87	100	17.5	9	0	-1.05	60.29	142	3.74	100
1.7	5098	10.01	100	18	9	0	-1.05	60.91	144.1	3.78	100
1.73	5130	10.16	100	17.5	9	0	-1.05	62.38	149.88	3.8	100
1.73	5222	10.16	100	18	9	0	-1.05	63.51	152.38	3.84	100
1.75	5248	10.3	100	19	9	0	-1.05	64.94	153.02	3.84	100
1.76	5312	10.3	100	19	9	0	-1.05	66.85	156.23	3.86	100
1.73	5399	10.45	100	19	9	0	-1.05	66.81	155.91	3.86	100
1.73	5474	10.45	100	20	9	0	-0.7	68.9	160.08	3.9	100
1.73	5527	10.3	100	21	9	0	-0.7	69.56	161.04	3.9	100
1.76	5560	10.3	99.22	21.5	9	0	-0.7	69.98	162.65	3.92	100
1.73	5605	10.3	98.43	22	9	0	-0.7	70.92	163.29	3.92	100
1.75	5673	10.3	97.25	22.5	9	0	-0.7	71.4	165.93	3.94	100
1.71	5764	10.16	96.86	22.5	9	0	-0.7	72.56	164.58	3.94	100
1.71	5841	10.16	95.69	22.5	9	0	-0.7	73.52	167.99	3.96	100
1.69	5850	10.16	93.73	23.5	9	0	-0.7	72.38	165.26	3.94	100
1.73	5901	10.01	90.2	23	9	0	-0.7	74.27	170.05	3.98	69.02
1.43	5928	1.89	58.43	27.5	10	0	0	41.9	98.81	3.34	23.53
0.42	5976	-4.93	43.14	40	0	0	0	19.12	42.26	2.58	7.84
0.19	5896	-8.42	0	11.5	0	0	0	8.8	19.05	2.08	0
0.19	5924	-9	0	11.5	0	0	0	8.85	18.44	2.06	0
Shouldn't it not even be able to give 100% WGDS? IIRC it's supposed to be capped at 90, to preserve the servo in the EBCS.

Something is very wrong here indeed.
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:39 AM   #9
MISTSHIFT
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Pearl I owned an 04 until it was recently totaled on the freeway by an old lady with a flat tire. I drive a bugeye now- But to the point, I had the same mods and ots cobb stg 2 map and the car seemed almost undriveable without damaging the engine. The det was terrible. I did a lot of research here and found that early on most people with 04's were complaining about the same thing. Some of the more experienced people here on the forum narrowed it down to an open closed loop switch over that occurs with the 04's it is a short duration delay that is apparently mandated by carb laws or somthing similar. Basicly the engine is flying blind for a short time while the ecu switches from tables to sensors. If you do a search for something along those lines you may find some of the same info that helped me. If this is old news to you then please disregard my ramblings. Good luck
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:32 AM   #10
Phatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AruisDante View Post
Shouldn't it not even be able to give 100% WGDS? IIRC it's supposed to be capped at 90, to preserve the servo in the EBCS.

Something is very wrong here indeed.
The max wgdc is changeable parameter in the ECU under Wastegate then MAX WGDC.

I have my max set to 99 or 100....
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:57 AM   #11
AruisDante
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Sorry, I didn't really make that clear that I was pointing to the fact that the turbo dynamics must be changed since WGDC can go to 100. It's really bad for the EBCS though...

But something else is very wrong if 100% WGDS is only netting 10PSI. That's about WG spring pressure, isn't it? Odds are very good you've got a leak somewhere.
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:49 PM   #12
bcblues
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Or a kink in the Boost Control lines somewhere.
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Old 07-08-2008, 02:56 PM   #13
Pearl04
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I think that you guys are right. Even before I put on the full turbo back on my car I was getting around the same boost. I thought it was the stock map and parts holding me back.

I went to the guy from which I bought the car and he told me that he did a mod which I think is known by the 3/16ths mod. I don't know much about it but he played around with the turbo and blow off valve lines. Anyone know what they are supposed to look like?

Again, thanks for all your input and help.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:13 PM   #14
Phatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl04 View Post
I think that you guys are right. Even before I put on the full turbo back on my car I was getting around the same boost. I thought it was the stock map and parts holding me back.

I went to the guy from which I bought the car and he told me that he did a mod which I think is known by the 3/16ths mod. I don't know much about it but he played around with the turbo and blow off valve lines. Anyone know what they are supposed to look like?

Again, thanks for all your input and help.
the 3/16 mod is drilling out the restrictor pill or putting a bigger one in, i forget which. Your restrictor pill is missing like i said earlier....get a new one or a MBC...lots of people have this problem. There are even shops that take them off people's cars cause they dont work on subaru
s that often and most people arent even aware that the pill is in there.

Last edited by Phatron; 07-08-2008 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:48 AM   #15
erickrm
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yea def get a new pill but dont get an MBC unless you area able to adjust your map accordingly.... please dont advise this if they are new to suby tuning world as it can result in a blown motor if it is not tuned right.

Good luck...
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:02 AM   #16
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yeah, a good EBCS like the unit from Perrin or the GM unit would be much better than an MBC for someone who isn't an experianced tuner. And frankly, I prefer the acuracy and adjustability of a good EBCS anyway, and spool is pretty equal if it's a quality unit.
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Old 07-09-2008, 01:30 PM   #17
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^^^^
agreed!
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Old 07-09-2008, 03:28 PM   #18
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If he is logging it would be pretty easy to "tune" a MBC. All you do is go do a couple runs to dial it in and then forget about it......i can see your point on a larger turbo, but over boosting a td04 from 14psi to 20psi isnt gonna blow his motor. 20psi is all a tdo4 will push and then it just tapers down from that. He couldnt run 20 psi on a td04 at redline even if he wanted to. And MBC should eliminate boost spikes anyway.

Am i forgetting something here that would make a MBC hard to tune? Ive run them before and they are quite simple and require way less knowledge than tuning Initial and Max WGDC tables, target boost tables and the turbo dynamics tables.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:34 AM   #19
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I have another quick question. By the way, thanks for all your input and suggestions. They are a real big help as I'm just getting the hang of this.

If I have put a cattless stock STI up pipe on my 04 WRX, what was the sensor that I took out durring the swap, and what should I do with it? I'm supposing it is the forward O2 sensor but there is another sensor in the right exhaust manifold. What's that one?

Do I need to turn off my forward O2 sensor due to the fact that there is no sensor is the real question.
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:34 AM   #20
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That's the rear 02 sensor. It's pretty much only used to see if the cat is working correctly.

You are going to throw CEL's if it's not in, but you can flash out that pretty easily.
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:42 AM   #21
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you can also just order a new restrictor pill, it's like $2 cheapest and easiest fix if it is indeed your problem.
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:50 PM   #22
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Default Pill fixed

So I purchased the original pill and now I reach target boost. 17.99 psi was my max. But I am getting bad boost spike (I think, if that's what you call it). My boost will rise and lower and rise again between 16 and 14. What can I do to make it more smooth and consistent?

The pill is helping my boost control solinoid take good readings of my manifold air pressure and thus let's it control it better. Thanks for the help in pinpointing the problem.

Another question. I have looked at the write up on the waste gate acutator arm but I don't understand why or rather when I would want to adjust it.
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Old 07-13-2008, 05:14 PM   #23
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Looks to me like you need to adjust turbo-dynamics now. Likely they're way to aggressive. The fact you're not bumping onto a "Max WGDC" limit, tells me someone's messed with Max WGDC and has probably set turbo dynamic to be really aggressive. If you don't know what turbo dynamic's is, you shouldn't be messing with your tune.

My opinion on the manual boost control is that you're crippling the ability of the factory ECU to protect your car in case something goes wrong. Lets say you get kocking from a clogged injector. The factory ECU can lock out all boost except for wastegate and switch to super rich maps to try to protect the engine. If you go manual BC, You'll be boosting even when it's dangerous, and are far more likely to end up with a blown motor. The ECU does a damn good job of protecting people who shouldn't be tuning from themselves.
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:16 PM   #24
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Thanks Kwan. I think you are right. I will keep my ecu in control of the boost and go retune to a less aggressive tune. Would this setup still work if I went with a 16g or 18g? I think that they are not extreem enough to require a manual controller but let me know if I'm wrong.
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:32 PM   #25
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Where did you get the tune?

I started with this basemap. My car's never run better. I've since upgraded the turbo, injectors and other parts and it's still running great. I doubt you want to actually use the ROM since it's for an 02/03 but, it's got some really good settings though would be a good example for your 04.

http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic3319.html

If I was you, I'd flash back to stock but, I'd zero out the "CL to OL" delay table and see how she runs. The move forward using this other base map as an example.
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