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Old 02-19-2019, 11:23 AM   #1226
Integra96
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He's just...defective.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:25 AM   #1227
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Originally Posted by BacDoc View Post
When you can't win, resort to feels.
Every time I bring up the fact you make as much money as the doctors you claim are only in it for the profit you immediately stop responding despite the fact you respond to everything else.

I guess when you can't win just duck the question and post as much bull**** as you can to distract from your evasion of simple questions.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:26 AM   #1228
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Originally Posted by BacDoc View Post
You are having to search reallllly hard to find the mention of death much less actual statistical significance.
No, I just had to read both of the sentences you posted.

But, continue to lie and deceive, it's not like you have a profit motive to push potentially fatal supplements.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:27 AM   #1229
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Originally Posted by BacDoc View Post
But did it mention any deaths?
Don't bother reading it, you won't see those words anyway.

It is hard to find valid statistics since people that take supplements (with unknown ingredients) often take multiple supplements, and they are adjudicated as a single event.

It doesn't matter though since you don't believe the concepts of zero and greater that zero.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:34 AM   #1230
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Originally Posted by chapstien View Post
Don't bother reading it, you won't see those words anyway.

It is hard to find valid statistics since people that take supplements (with unknown ingredients) often take multiple supplements, and they are adjudicated as a single event.

It doesn't matter though since you don't believe the concepts of zero and greater that zero.
He can post the link to the study, highlight a subset which seems to support his position, but won't bother to read it to find that 3 deaths out of 85 cases where causality could be confirmed resulted in death from HDS.

Oh, and he tried to claim that because the study only had 800+ enrolled participants, that is the total number of HDS liver injuries.

I consider it willful deception, aka trolling.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:40 AM   #1231
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Originally Posted by fliz View Post
He can post the link to the study, highlight a subset which seems to support his position, but won't bother to read it to find that 3 deaths out of 85 cases where causality could be confirmed resulted in death from HDS.

Oh, and he tried to claim that because the study only had 800+ enrolled participants, that is the total number of HDS liver injuries.

I consider it willful deception, aka trolling.
I'd give him points if I could.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:58 AM   #1232
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Originally Posted by BacDoc View Post
When you can't win, resort to feels.
Says the guy whose belief system is based upon how he "feels". But projection is definitely your thing.

You provide lies disguised as opinions which you claim to be "proof".

Everyone is on to your little shtick of being an overly emotional idiot.
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:10 PM   #1233
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Originally Posted by BacDoc View Post
Where are the numbers? Led to or is pretty vague. And what were the other factors involved? Were these middle aged women also alcoholics? Heavy drug users? History of OTC meds? ...
Funny how you only ask these questions when it comes to supplements, not when it comes to "vaccine injuries."

How much is Big Alternative paying you?

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Originally Posted by BacDoc View Post
You are having to search reallllly hard to find the mention of death much less actual statistical significance.
...and once again, you prove that you have no ****ing idea how statistics work.
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:15 PM   #1234
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Funny how you only ask these questions when it comes to supplements, not when it comes to "vaccine injuries."

How much is Big Alternative paying you?



...and once again, you prove that you have no ****ing idea how statistics work.
Or search engines. Totally unbiased, then just search words and whatnot.
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Old 02-19-2019, 02:45 PM   #1235
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Doxxing is unacceptable.

Last edited by Reciprocity; 02-19-2019 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 02-19-2019, 04:17 PM   #1236
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White woman with dreads = guaranteed issues.
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Old 02-19-2019, 04:37 PM   #1237
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This is worse than a Bachelor episode...
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:21 AM   #1238
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“Deeply disturbing” footage of a Melbourne chiropractor performing a controversial treatment on a baby has prompted the Victorian government to refer him to regulatory bodies.

The footage posted online shows the chiropractor holding the baby, believed to be two weeks old, upside down then applying spinal manipulation treatments.

“This vision is deeply disturbing,” the health minister, Jenny Mikakos, said on Wednesday.

She has referred the practitioner to the Chiropractic Board of Australia and the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency “to take the necessary action”.

“It’s appalling that young children and infants are being exposed to potential harm,” Mikakos said.

She called on the board to condemn the practice of treating infants, saying it was “unprofessional and unacceptable”.

She also urged Ahpra to “act quickly to stop these rogue practitioners in their tracks”.

The minister said a range of expert groups – including the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners and the Royal Australian College of Physicians and other similar groups overseas – had cautioned against spinal manipulation in infants.

“Newborn babies are extremely fragile and it’s important to be aware that the damage done to an infant may not be obvious immediately and may not manifest until years later,” Mikakos said.

The Chiropractic Board of Australia said it was aware of the video and was assessing the concerns raised.

“The board has made a strong statement about the care of children and has written to every chiropractor in Australia to warn them to comply with their professional and ethical obligations, which are clearly outlined in the board’s code of conduct for chiropractors,” a spokeswoman said.

She said the board had acted against chiropractors who failed to meet expected standards.

“The board is always concerned if there are any chiropractors not practising in accordance with these obligations and welcomes advice about such practitioners,” she said.
https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ply-disturbing

Also this:
Quote:
The Chiropractic Board of Australia should be sacked because of its failure to take action against members making false and potentially dangerous health claims, an article in the Medical Journal of Australia argues.

Some chiropractors were falsely claiming to be able to treat people, including babies, for non-musculoskeletal diseases such as asthma, ear infections and pneumonia, the lead author of the paper, Dr Ken Harvey, said.

Others were promoting regular chiropractic care for pregnant women, claiming it could shorten labour and prevent caesarean sections, despite there being no good evidence that chiropractic treatment could do so.


Harvey, an adjunct associate professor with the department of preventive medicine at Monash University, wrote that he had submitted 10 complaints involving 38 chiropractors and 69 of their advertisements to the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency (Ahpra) last year.

The advertisements were in breach of the Health Practitioner Regulation National Law Act of 2009, as well as the Chiropractic Board of Australia’s guidelines for advertising regulated health services, Harvey wrote.

“We have now reviewed all the websites we complained about four months ago,” the paper, co-authored by Mal Vickers from the Victorian branch of the Australian Skeptics, says.

“Of the 10 clinics involved, only one removed all the claims alleged to breach the national law. Another took down the website complained about, but the chiropractor concerned then made similar claims on another website. Of 69 claims alleged non-compliant with the national law, 43 [62%] currently remain non-compliant.”

Other websites non-compliant with national regulations had been found since then Harvey said, and five years had passed since the Chiropractic Board of Australia told its members to ensure their websites met legal requirements.

In 2013, it was reported that a baby’s neck had been broken by a chiropractor, and that the Chiropractic Board of Australia closed the case without reporting it to the public. (The findings of an Ahpra-commissioned report into the case, and how it became public, have been disputed.)

The board and Ahpra had failed to protect the public, Harvey told Guardian Australia.

“The chiropractic profession is split between those members who support evidence-based practice, and those who are involved in the more pseudoscientific and false aspects of the profession,” he said.

“The board being sacked and reconstituted with new blood committed to getting rid of the non evidence-based stuff, and to reforming the profession, is the only way forward.”

Guardian Australia has contacted Ahpra, which supports the Chiropractic Board of Australia, for comment.

The chief executive of the Consumers Health Forum, Leanne Wells, said the paper raised serious questions about the performance of the Australian Chiropratic Board and Ahpra.

It was time for health regulators to “end the farce surrounding chiropractors’ extravagant and spurious claims,” she said.

“It is no laughing matter that the agencies purportedly established to protect consumers have shown, by their absence of effective action, little sign of putting patient interests first, the prime reason for their existence,” she said.

“The promotion of unproven therapies over several years begs the question about whether it is time for federal and state governments to intervene and reconstitute the regulatory oversight of chiropractors.”

The national president of Chiropractic Australia, Rod Bonello, said the Chiropractic Board of Australia did not handle advertising breaches, which were referred to and investigated by Ahpra.

He agreed with Harvey that Ahpra needed to do more to prevent false advertising about chiropractic treatments.

“When chiropractors depart unethical and irresponsible information, it is a disappointment, but it is in no way unique to chiropractors and is something that is a problem in all areas of health care,” Bonello said.
https://www.theguardian.com/australi...entious-claims

Also this:
Quote:
Chiropractic treatments might appear safer than they actually are because their adverse effects are under-reported in medical trials, a study has found.

Improper reporting of the adverse effects of a medical intervention was unethical, said Edzard Ernst, professor of complementary medicine at the Peninsula medical school, University of Exeter, who led the latest analysis. This had allowed chiropractors to create a falsely positive picture about the safety of their treatments, he said.

Chiropractors use spinal manipulation to treat ailments of the muscles and joints. Some practitioners claim the treatments can be used to treat more general health problems such as colic, asthma and prolonged crying in babies.

In his latest analysis, Ernst's team collated data from 60 randomised controlled trials (RCTs) of chiropractic carried out from January 2000 to July 2011. They found that 29 of the studies failed to mention any adverse effects of the treatment and, of the 31 trials where adverse effects were reported, 16 reported that none had occurred during the study. The results are published in the April 2012 edition of the New Zealand Medical Journal.

Guidelines for publishing clinical trials require that all adverse outcomes of a medical intervention should be published. If an intervention is totally safe and, therefore has no adverse effects, the researchers should report that there were no adverse effects.

"Imagine you have a drug where mild adverse effects are documented and hopefully rare adverse effects are being reported in case reports," said Ernst. "Then somebody does a trial on this drug and doesn't even mention adverse effects. That, in anybody's book, must be unethical.

"I feel that chiropractors do have a strange attitude towards the safety of their interventions. When you read the literature, you see proclamations that spinal manipulation, according to chiropractors, is 100% safe."


This is despite hundreds of case studies that have documented problems with the treatment. "About 50% of patients seeing a chiropractor have adverse effects, which is staggering," said Ernst. "In addition to these fairly mild adverse effects, which basically are pain at the site of manipulation and referred pain sometimes, which only lasts one or two days, we have about 500-700 cases of severe complications being reported."

With extreme chiropractic movement of the neck, an artery can disintegrate and lead to a stroke, an outcome that is well-documented in medical literature. "We only see what is being published and that can only be the tip of the iceberg," said Ernst. "Some neurologist sees a stroke and he finds out that this was associated with chiropractic – in 99.9% of cases he won't publish that."

Ernst said the under-reporting of adverse effects meant decisions about the best course of treatment for a patient would be made difficult. "Therapeutic decisions ought to be taken not on considering the effectiveness alone but also you have to have effectiveness as a balance with the potential for harm. You have to do a risk-benefit analysis. When you under-report risk, this cannot possibly be done robustly."

The British Chiropractic Association was approached for a response to the study but a spokesperson said it was unable to comment in time for publication.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...under-reported
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:09 AM   #1239
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Moving this over from the meeting thread:
Quote:
...it stands to reason his business will see a boom. Not quite, he says.

“There's the idea that maybe there was a conflict of interest when we were doing this. But the data washed all that out,”

He adds there may be a few extra bucks, but this is about helping people suffering and fighting addiction long term.
Yeah, no conflict of interest here because the "data" says so. How about showing your work on that one?

I'll just say that it is possible to have a law where the outcome might be good that was made for bad reasons. I'm sure BacDoc would agree, wouldn't he?
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:39 AM   #1240
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Originally Posted by Matt A View Post
the law in WV is a good one. WV has a massive opioid issue, this law forces doctors to tell patients to try PT, acupuncture, chiro, etc, before prescribing pain meds. So I guess the PT folks are going to be "lining their pockets" too.
Two of the "treatments" you explicitly listed are bunk pseudoscience. Not a great look.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:09 PM   #1241
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Originally Posted by banman View Post
Moving this over from the meeting thread:

Yeah, no conflict of interest here because the "data" says so. How about showing your work on that one?

I'll just say that it is possible to have a law where the outcome might be good that was made for bad reasons. I'm sure BacDoc would agree, wouldn't he?
BacDoc source:
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:11 PM   #1242
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Two of the "treatments" you explicitly listed are bunk pseudoscience. Not a great look.
youre right. better to get addicted to pain killers.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:20 PM   #1243
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Can you even become addicted to something that doesn't do anything?


"I got hooked on placebos, man!"
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:24 PM   #1244
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Originally Posted by banman View Post
Moving this over from the meeting thread:

Yeah, no conflict of interest here because the "data" says so. How about showing your work on that one?

I'll just say that it is possible to have a law where the outcome might be good that was made for bad reasons. I'm sure BacDoc would agree, wouldn't he?
This is like complaining there is a conflict of interest for solar companies if there are laws made promoting greater use of solar power.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:28 PM   #1245
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youre right. better to get addicted to pain killers.
In my (admittedly not-a-doctor's) opinion there needs to be a bigger push for non-opioid painkillers. There is a lot of research showing that combinations of acetaminophen, ibuprofen and other nonsteroid anti-inflammatory drugs are better than opioids at treating chronic pain in the back, knees, hips and acute pain from things like oral surgery... yet a lot of doctors would rather push narcotics.

When I first suffered a serious back injury the doctors loaded me up with hydrocodone/oxycodone prescriptions... They made me sick as much as they eased the pain. I got them to switch me over to a non-narcotics and it eased the pain just as well as the opioids without the side affects.

Every time I've gone back I've had to explicitly ask for non-opioids because by default that's what they want to prescribe.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:28 PM   #1246
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Originally Posted by VpointVick View Post
Can you even become addicted to something that doesn't do anything?


"I got hooked on placebos, man!"
well, placebos do often work. So...
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:33 PM   #1247
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Originally Posted by markman View Post
In my (admittedly not-a-doctor's) opinion there needs to be a bigger push for non-opioid painkillers. There is a lot of research showing that combinations of acetaminophen, ibuprofen and other nonsteroid anti-inflammatory drugs are better than opioids at treating chronic pain in the back, knees, hips and acute pain from things like oral surgery... yet a lot of doctors would rather push narcotics.

When I first suffered a serious back injury the doctors loaded me up with hydrocodone/oxycodone prescriptions... They made me sick as much as they eased the pain. I got them to switch me over to a non-narcotics and it eased the pain just as well as the opioids without the side affects.

Every time I've gone back I've had to explicitly ask for non-opioids because by default that's what they want to prescribe.
Know what's even better?


Treating the actual cause of the pain instead of masking it long term.


My Father and my Father in law have both been on painkillers for well over a decade due to back/hip/knee whatever. Fix the problem, use the painkillers for wait/recover time and that's it. Don't keep prescribing the **** (often on the patients word alone) for decades.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:37 PM   #1248
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youre right. better to get addicted to pain killers.
Versus serious infections or strokes. I'll take my chances.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:38 PM   #1249
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I haven't had any serious injuries in a while...tooth stuff, lower back stuff, a couple nasty colds are all I can think of in the past couple years. For all of those my docs prescribed me non-opioid painkillers.

I'm trying to remember the last time I was prescribed an opioid....I just don't recall.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:39 PM   #1250
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Originally Posted by VpointVick View Post
Can you even become addicted to something that doesn't do anything?


"I got hooked on placebos, man!"
You can if taking it gives you a big blast of dopamine for whatever reason, and the glutamate signal "switch" in yoar teh nucleus accumbens is borked. See gambling and gaming addiction.
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