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Old 09-15-2006, 06:04 PM   #51
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Not to burst any 6 sp fanboy's pride but I think the 6sp is junk. Too busy shifting and all. The only thing I see them being good for is AutoX where you are in short bursts all the time.
Except on the 6-speed, 2nd gear is too short, so may have to go back and forth between 2nd and 3rd, which doesn't help your times. That's one of the few advantages the 5 speed has over the 6-speed

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Old 09-16-2006, 03:46 PM   #52
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I have an 06 STI and I have driven a friend's brother's WRX w/ the 5 speed. I didnt go on a track or anything with it so I have no comment with that, but driving around I can tell you I enjoyed not feeling rushed to shift with 1st and 2nd because the wider ratios...
If I sold the 6 speed what would be needed to get the 5 speed in? A new front diff because mines in the case being sold?
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Old 09-16-2006, 10:24 PM   #53
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Good points, I guess I just don't have deep enough pockets for a fast Subaru. I have been on the fence weather to keep the scooby or move to something that doesn't cost a first born to go fast.

5000-7000 for a viable trans just doesn't seem right to me, not when you can get a RWD 600ftlb rate trans for under 2k and an equally strong rear end for 1500.

I love my Subaru but I can't get over spending that kind of money on just a trans... let alone all the other cost associated with making a subaru move.

I appreciate the info though...
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Old 09-17-2006, 12:38 AM   #54
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I have to agree. I've been spoiled by dirt cheap chevy small block parts. An extra beefy muncie 4 speed would run about $800 around here. I love this car, but man, the price of gaining some confidence in my my driveline makes selling for an 02 z28 5 speed more and more attractive. And no, not all of us can just run by the stealership and trade up to a $35,000 STi without loosing the roof over our head. And damn, $2500 + shipping and core for a rebuilt RA box that I'm still not super confindent in. Crazy. But those PPGs... a guy can dream eh?
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Old 09-17-2006, 03:02 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js3324 View Post
I have an 06 STI and I have driven a friend's brother's WRX w/ the 5 speed. I didnt go on a track or anything with it so I have no comment with that, but driving around I can tell you I enjoyed not feeling rushed to shift with 1st and 2nd because the wider ratios...
If I sold the 6 speed what would be needed to get the 5 speed in? A new front diff because mines in the case being sold?
Err...

Hey, I'm the first to say that the ratios aren't the most desireable for 6-speeds, but your tranny is fine. Much stronger than stock 5-speeds, plus the differentials are far superior over the 5-speed differentials. I would just keep it, not worth the hassle or dough.
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Old 09-17-2006, 09:25 AM   #56
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The only update I have after driving a week now is that the clutch has broken in/bedded in or something and it's much easier now. While not OEM in the firmness department, it's (pure guess here) only about 20% stiffer than what it was.

Still loving the box though.

And I'll also agree and forgot to mention that the 6MT differentials (for those that use them) are better when considering a PPG vs. 6MT swap.
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Old 09-17-2006, 09:42 PM   #57
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this thread is great.. i started my saving for a PPG gear box a few months ago... and hope by early 07 to be adding to this thread as an owner..

For those of you above me that are getting discouraged by the price of making a subaru fast.. dont think about it like that... out of all the members on Nasioc how many have PPG gears.. NOT MANY.. its a big upgrade... not something every suby owner will do.. dont think you cant have a fast suby just cause you cant upgrade your tranny... i have an 02 with a vf-34 and some other mods and LOVE the car.. just got my new clutch and flywheel and remember why i love it even more.. granted there was an autox today and i couldnt participate because i know my gears arent up for that right now..

If you love your suby save for the gears if you really want them.. if not save for an STi.. or just have a nice stage 2 WRX.. that is always clean, looks good and start to pay it off..

Most people that buy these cars take out a 4-5 year loan.. thats 4 or 5 years you can save for a mod like this..

David
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Old 09-18-2006, 05:22 AM   #58
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I definitely love the car, but it seems that you have to not only refrain from abuse, but go extra easy on the thing for it to last more than a couple of years without catastrophic driveline woes while putting out above-stock power. It just seems to me that a company that could offer a much stronger gearset for an reasonable retail cost would make some great money. I mean andrewtech posted $2000+ for just 1-2 gears?!? That's like a $1000 for just the mainshaft and another $500 for each of 2 driven gears (sound like a fair distribution?). That's crazy. I just can't comprehend how the materials and and some machining could equate to that kind of money. Seems like they could cut the price in half and sell 3-5 times and many. I'll admit that I don't know the first thing about what the production cost of a single cog is from beginning to end, but it can't be anywhere near $500.

I honestly don't mean to be a whining newbie, but retailers can't even keep the $1400 RA sets in stock... imagine how well a stronger set of gears at a reasonable price would sell? Any of you gear manufacturers listening ?
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Old 09-18-2006, 10:37 AM   #59
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^^True. I know if the cost was lower, about three friends and I would be all over a PPG gearset.
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Old 09-18-2006, 11:22 AM   #60
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From what I have seen in the last nearly 10 years here is that Subaru performance is a rich mans game, (if you want serious power/performance). I equate Suabru cost with Porsche as they seem to be on par for the most part.

I love my Subaru, but I think it will be relagate to daily drive and not street/track terror. I feel I have to search for a more wallet friendly platform. I just want swallor 5-7K for a viable trans option, not when domestics can have the same for under 3K. Subaru must use unobtainum in the trans gears.
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Old 09-18-2006, 06:29 PM   #61
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Porsche? Hell, I'm off to trade in my wrx for a shiny new 911 today True, subie might just match porsche part for part... But hey, the lgt is coming here with the 6 speed too! Maybe more of these 6mt boxes will be in the market soon with increased production, bringing down prices of both 6mts and competition from ppg? I know I live in a dream world... but I can hope, can't I?
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Old 09-19-2006, 01:49 AM   #62
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yeah it just depends on what you want... you saw unabomber posted hes only making 250hp/250 lbs torque.. i am making a little bit over that on stock gears.. its a nice accomplishment to say you have a 6 speed swap, or to say you have PPG gears.. that is why not everyone has them... i cant wait for mine.. might take me another 6 months.. but they will come

David
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Old 09-19-2006, 09:13 AM   #63
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lol you haven't accomplished anything... you just wrote a check if you have either... it's just a question of spending your money. If you think it's worth it to spend 5-6K on a trans so be it.

I can not justify that kind of spending when I know of many other platforms that do not require such an out lay of cash.

To me Subaru's are just inherently difficult (expensive) to make fast, they work against you be design.

Do I love me car sure, but I know that for my to make the power I really want I would have to spend 50% more compared to other cars.

This is a bummer, and if I had lots of cash to throw around I would have a crazy lil scooby, but I do not
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Old 09-19-2006, 09:53 AM   #64
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lol you haven't accomplished anything... you just wrote a check if you have either.
That in my opinion is an immature statement. It's all about what you want. Not whether you spent xxxx dollars on something. If ya want something cheap that can go fast for cheap then go buy a DSM. We all have our hobbies and we all have things we spend tons of money. Some people spend tons of money on their cars, some spend it on houses, some spend on alcohol, some on women, some on drugs, you get the jist.
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Old 09-19-2006, 10:35 AM   #65
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thats interesting, I consider saying "I have X part on my car is an achievment" to be a little immature. Supporting a family, helping people who need help, educating those who need education, these are achievments. Spending money on car parts is not an achievment.

It isn't about cheap, it is about reasonable... I understand this is subjective. So for me and my budget 5-6k for a trans in unreasonable. Like I have already said if I had more money to spend I'm sure I would have a nastly lil scooby.

Well not that I have trashed an otherwise great thread, I will appoligze and take my leave.
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Old 09-19-2006, 10:52 AM   #66
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No worries folks..... we all have our OPINIONS and the expense is a fact that needs discussion. I will say this though.....I have been somewhat privy to the cost of PPG gears as I have had some intimate involvement with PPG's pricing structure. Their profit margin is probably the lowest of all aftermarket parts on the Subaru market. So hopes of sales or price reductions is very low as of right now. Plus duty and shipping from Australia is a big killer as well (AKA APS sticker shock).

One update I have though about the tranny that didn't click until yesterday though:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1093638

While this post deals with my firm rear end, it goes without saying that removing movement to the rear will increase HP to the road. Since the gears can now take the bangin', I'm bangin' gears like crazy and having an AWD car squat is really, really bad ass!

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Old 09-19-2006, 02:16 PM   #67
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I understand that you have to pay to play, but I'm still thinking things should be reasonable. A transmission being nearly 1/4 of the cost of a new wrx is not reasonable. I want LOTs of things for my wrx, but I don't have that kind of money. It's not what you want, it's what you can afford.

OK, so with all of this talk about driving like a asshat being allowable... What exactly makes the helical synchro PPGs THAT much stronger than stock or RA gears? I don't see how they could be too much wider with synchros still in the way. Is it root width of the teeth? Materials? Shotpeening/heat/cryo treating? What's the deal?
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Old 09-19-2006, 02:18 PM   #68
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I understand that you have to pay to play, but I'm still thinking things should be reasonable. A transmission being nearly 1/4 of the cost of a new wrx is not reasonable. I want LOTs of things for my wrx, but I don't have that kind of money.
There are other options that are cheaper. They are just not as good.

If you can't meet your goals within your budget it means you didn't do enough research before you bought your car (or you bought it before there WAS research).

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Old 09-19-2006, 02:18 PM   #69
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The root width is larger and the teeth profiles are much fatter and more rounded. With the teeth not being so thin up top you get much more strength.
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Old 09-19-2006, 02:28 PM   #70
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There are other options that are cheaper. They are just not as good.

If you can't meet your goals within your budget it means you didn't do enough research before you bought your car (or you bought it before there WAS research).

john
Very well put!
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Old 09-19-2006, 07:14 PM   #71
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I did research the car. I was under the impression that the 5mt would hold together if I don't flog it. I didn't flog it, and it's blown up twice. After putting 450 crank hp through a gm th350 in a 4300lb twin turbo jaguar, and about 300hp in a turbocharged 2.6L mbz 190E (16 year old car at the time mind you) without a single transmission problem, i was hoping that the wrx could handle it's own power + a catback and K&N... I learned the hard way, what can I say? My goal: I want to be able to take the car down a twisty road with reasonable confidence that it won't spit gear teeth all over the pavement. I don't race civics at every stop-light, and I'm really not concerned with the 1/4. Living pretty close to the mountains, handling and reasonable midrange was the idea, hence my purchase of a subaru. If gear dimensions are the major difference, I'm not sure why subaru didn't put down a better gear profile in the first place. Sounds like PPG simply did what subaru should have done long before production of the 6mt.
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Old 09-19-2006, 07:18 PM   #72
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twice? Without drag racing? I'm skeptical in the least. This transmission has been sold not only here, but in many other countries for a long time.
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Old 09-19-2006, 08:10 PM   #73
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The strength lies in heat treatment and tooth width. I WISH I had a side by side comparo, but maybe later. Using just a guess, I'd say there are 50% less PPG teeth to OEM in most gears. I'd say they are 3-4 times the width.
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Old 09-19-2006, 09:52 PM   #74
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You were doing 110 mph on a public street!?!?!!?

Ok now that I can bring that up for the rest of our lives. How would you rate gearboxtech? I've only heard good things about them, its would be nice to know for sure they are THAT good.

When it comes to this transmission when I want to do my PPG's I want only the best and its soooooo convient that they are so close to me...
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Old 09-20-2006, 12:10 PM   #75
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Keep in mind, I bought the car knowing the transmission should be treated nicely. My friend has an '02 wagon with 130K on it now, trans lasted till 120ish, then a bearing failure, and he is hard on it.

My used wrx w/ 74k miles: first trans went soon after purchase, I figured the guy before had beaten it into submission. And the gears were fine, the front bearing on the mainshaft went bad, scuffing the journal, and it was making some awful noises. Second transmission: low mile used unit... 2 teeth popped cleanly off of only the mainshaft side of second gear while pulling into the driveway, even the subaru tech said this didn't look like abuse as all other gears/bearings/synchros looked really clean. I was extra careful with that second box after the first experience. I've never "stripped" any gears on any car. No I don't drag race, and I woudn't dare to EVER launch a 5mt (even nicely), it's not a crazy-fast car once you're moving anyway. This is why I'm frustrated. Like I said, I prefer the twisties.

One thing I like about the PPGs is that the mainshaft looks thicker over the span that runs from the front of the trans to the first bearing in the case (at least in the picture I saw). I'm thinking this type of flex certainly could contribute to the problems I've had. Yet another thing that should have been done from the factory to keep mainshaft flex to a minimum for a very small increase in re-tooling cost. After seeing how cleanly 2 teeth snapped off of second, I'd say bigger teeth = good. Seems like you guy's with the PPGs say they whine a bit more. Maybe Subaru was trying to keep gear noise to a minimum with the tooth profile?

True, the 5mt has been around, but go to the forums for guys in the UK, Poland, etc. Guys in other countries have been blowing up the 5mt for years too, even with shorter final drive ratios. Americans may be retarded and hard on our automobiles, but other people are hard on the WRX as well. PPGs ftw!
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