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Old 03-12-2018, 04:25 PM   #1901
Straight6
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Thanks again. Yes, they updated the tunes to FTCL with the release of the E30 OTS map.
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:00 PM   #1902
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Originally Posted by ericdet View Post
Yeah I got one in December. All stock for now.
Type R here as well.

Gonna wait until the tuners have figured out this engine before I get a FlashPro.
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:02 PM   #1903
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Type R here as well.



Gonna wait until the tuners have figured out this engine before I get a FlashPro.


I recognize your screen name. Im the same everywhere also.
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:18 PM   #1904
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I'm contemplating getting a new Civic Sport as a daily commuter car, Subaru is paid off and bagged so... yeah.
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:20 PM   #1905
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I recognize your screen name. Im the same everywhere also.
I'd be interested in getting a FlashPro for logging purposes only but you only get about 60% of the sensors without unlocking/flashing the ecu per Hondata.
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:21 PM   #1906
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I'm contemplating getting a new Civic Sport as a daily commuter car, Subaru is paid off and bagged so... yeah.
Civic is too slow and FWD (poor traction in winter) IMO.
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:23 PM   #1907
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Yeah I got one in December. All stock for now.
Have you tracked it?
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:26 PM   #1908
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Have you tracked it?


I have track days schedules in March and April.

Definitely not too slow. Lol. Pulled my 315whp WRX.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:30 PM   #1909
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What exactly is an e-tuner adjusting when they're doing tune revisions? Once they've created a base map, can't that map basically work for all cars assuming they have same bolt on parts? Are there actually enough differences in a mass produced engine that the tuner can fine tune? Or all the adjustments made to accommodate for external variables, such as elevation, fuel quality, etc. If that's the case, what if I get tuned in Colorado, and then move to California? Should I get a re-tune?

I've been reading up on tuning principles, and simply put, they mostly just cover air/fuel, spark timing, and boost.

I guess what I'm asking is, if the stock tune can be made to work for 50 states, why can't an e-tune work as well? In other words, most of us agree that a protune is going to be "better" than an OTS map, but what exactly are tuners adjusting to make it better?

Last edited by ayau; 03-13-2018 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:35 PM   #1910
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TGV, EGR, ECBS, on 93.

39F ambient.

Back to back pulls.

Pull 1:
https://datazap.me/u/ayau/3rd-gear-w...og=0&data=9-24

Pull 2:
https://datazap.me/u/ayau/3rd-gear-w...0&data=9-16-24

Getting -1.41 fine knock learn at 65xx RPM on both pulls. Probably a false positive, but just want to confirm.

Last edited by ayau; 03-13-2018 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:42 PM   #1911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ayau View Post
What exactly is an e-tuner adjusting when they're doing tune revisions? Once they've created a base map, can't that map basically work for all cars assuming they have same bolt on parts? Are there actually enough differences in a mass produced engine that the tuner can fine tune? Or all the adjustments made to accommodate for external variables, such as elevation, fuel quality, etc. If that's the case, what if I get tuned in Colorado, and then move to California? Should I get a re-tune?

I've been reading up on tuning principles, and simply put, they mostly just cover air/fuel, spark timing, and boost.

I guess what I'm asking is, if the stock tune can be made to work for 50 states, why can't an e-tune work as well? In other words, most of us agree that a protune is going to be "better" than an OTS map, but what exactly are tuners adjusting to make it better?

OTS tunes work across the range because they're run so rich. Every WOT pull I've done with cobb OTS has AF Sens 1 Ratio pegged at 10.14 so who knows how rich it's actually going.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:24 PM   #1912
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OTS tunes work across the range because they're run so rich. Every WOT pull I've done with cobb OTS has AF Sens 1 Ratio pegged at 10.14 so who knows how rich it's actually going.
Is that actually captured in a log?
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:32 PM   #1913
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This probably needs to be restated again as a few people have misunderstood this in the past few pages.


Cruise knock, I.E. driving around normally without going WOT you're going to see occasional Feedback Knock Correction and Fine Knock Learning in the 1.4-2.8 ranges. Whether it's false knock or not isn't really the point as it's not going to do any damage even if it was real. So when I or someone else says it's just cruise knock don't worry about it, that's what we're talking about it.

Getting Fine Knock Learn Correction at 5000+RPMs during a WOT pull is more than likely REAL KNOCK and not false. Your car is probably knocking for real if you see FKL at 5500.

Just because your car knocked at 5500 a few pulls DOESN'T mean there is a problem with your car or your tune. It means Subaru's knock control system is active. If every single time (over days and weeks) you see FKL in the same cell every WOT run then that might be something to talk to your tuner about.
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:57 PM   #1914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
This probably needs to be restated again as a few people have misunderstood this in the past few pages.


Cruise knock, I.E. driving around normally without going WOT you're going to see occasional Feedback Knock Correction and Fine Knock Learning in the 1.4-2.8 ranges. Whether it's false knock or not isn't really the point as it's not going to do any damage even if it was real. So when I or someone else says it's just cruise knock don't worry about it, that's what we're talking about it.

Getting Fine Knock Learn Correction at 5000+RPMs during a WOT pull is more than likely REAL KNOCK and not false. Your car is probably knocking for real if you see FKL at 5500.

Just because your car knocked at 5500 a few pulls DOESN'T mean there is a problem with your car or your tune. It means Subaru's knock control system is active. If every single time (over days and weeks) you see FKL in the same cell every WOT run then that might be something to talk to your tuner about.
Hell you could be getting -9s on cruise and it might not be a problem... unless it pops at low load low rpm in which case lol rod bearing...

Alternatively if your car NEVER knocks, or if you see lots of -.7 fbks and or -1.05 fbks that could be indicative of your knock sensors being desensitized and their response being dulled. You probably dont want this.

I feel a sticky coming....
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:01 AM   #1915
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Originally Posted by simpleJ View Post
Hell you could be getting -9s on cruise and it might not be a problem... unless it pops at low load low rpm in which case lol rod bearing...

Alternatively if your car NEVER knocks, or if you see lots of -.7 fbks and or -1.05 fbks that could be indicative of your knock sensors being desensitized and their response being dulled. You probably dont want this.

I feel a sticky coming....
Watch out for that katana!
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:37 AM   #1916
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I noticed some pulls were in open loop and some were in closed. What are the main differences between closed and open loop tuning? I get the concept itself, but how does that translate into real world driving, WOT, etc? Is the factory tune in closed or open loop during WOT?
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:57 AM   #1917
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I noticed some pulls were in open loop and some were in closed. What are the main differences between closed and open loop tuning? I get the concept itself, but how does that translate into real world driving, WOT, etc? Is the factory tune in closed or open loop during WOT?
The factory tune is Open loop at WOT. Some tuners use Full Time closed Loop. They both have Pro's and Con's. My tune was FTCL. Since the WRX has a Wideband from the factory it can be used to adjust fueling in high load situations. More cushion if something is wrong IMO. Con is you're relying solely on the sensor to be correct.

Not really sure how specific of an answer you were looking for in regards to the differences between the two. If you grasp the basic concept of what each one does then the above should explain the major difference.
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Old 03-14-2018, 11:03 AM   #1918
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Is that actually captured in a log?
I'd say in this thread the majority of Cobb OTS tunes behaved this way. Especially Stage 1.
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Old 03-14-2018, 11:11 AM   #1919
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The factory tune is Open loop at WOT. Some tuners use Full Time closed Loop. They both have Pro's and Con's. My tune was FTCL. Since the WRX has a Wideband from the factory it can be used to adjust fueling in high load situations. More cushion if something is wrong IMO. Con is you're relying solely on the sensor to be correct.

Not really sure how specific of an answer you were looking for in regards to the differences between the two. If you grasp the basic concept of what each one does then the above should explain the major difference.
Yeah that makes sense. Just trying to get an understanding of the mechanics besides the general concept.

So if you run in full time closed loop, will your AFR be closer to target AFR? If you're closer to your target AFR, does that mean you are making smoother torque?

Are there any fail-safes in case the o2 sensor stops functioning? Does it throw a CEL and default to open loop? I'm wondering if swapping the o2 sensor would be a good preventative maintenance when you're tuned to for full time closed loop.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:00 PM   #1920
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Yeah that makes sense. Just trying to get an understanding of the mechanics besides the general concept.

So if you run in full time closed loop, will your AFR be closer to target AFR? If you're closer to your target AFR, does that mean you are making smoother torque?

Are there any fail-safes in case the o2 sensor stops functioning? Does it throw a CEL and default to open loop? I'm wondering if swapping the o2 sensor would be a good preventative maintenance when you're tuned to for full time closed loop.
Theoretically it will be closer because the fuel will be automatically adjusted to hit the target. In Open Loop the ECU is working off a table based on the MAF scaling. It sees the fuel it needs from the MAF and injects the corresponding amount of fuel. This can be thrown off by scaling, air leaks pre-turbo, after turbo, injectors, etc. In open loop it just assumes that what is coming out the tailpipe is good. Being closer to the target doesn't make things smoother necessarily but will be more predictable. If you take off that god forsaken Cobb Big SF and put it back on not exactly as before it's not as big of a deal.

In Closed Loop the same things are happening except the final AFR is checked at the front O2 and adjusted globally. If you're missing some air from a leak post turbo the ECU will pull out fuel to hit the target, and opposite for a leak pre-turbo, adding fuel for the unaccounted for air.

Yes there is a built in failsafe to revert to Open Loop (If it is properly setup by the tuner anyway.) if there is a failure in the sensor. But that is an outright failure (high/Low). If the sensor starts to drift over time is the issue. No different than a MAF though in my eyes. Swapping the O2 sensor could lead to issues actually as sensors vary by nature. A new O2 could not behave exactly like the old one you were tuned on.
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:13 PM   #1921
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In Closed Loop the same things are happening except the final AFR is checked at the front O2 and adjusted globally. If you're missing some air from a leak post turbo the ECU will pull out fuel to hit the target, and opposite for a leak pre-turbo, adding fuel for the unaccounted for air.
So AF correction and learning are always changing during cruise, WOT, etc, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's a leak. Is it adjusting to compensate for environmental changes (temperature, air density, etc)?
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Old 03-14-2018, 02:24 PM   #1922
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AF Correction and Learning are active during Closed Loop not Open Loop.
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Old 03-14-2018, 02:36 PM   #1923
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AF Correction and Learning are active during Closed Loop not Open Loop.
AF learning is also partially active in open loop until it hits the break point, which is why some intakes can actually be used on the stock tune


penscanofworms:
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Old 03-14-2018, 02:52 PM   #1924
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Isn't Learning only active until 4800 max? In which case you'd run lean at the top of every gear.
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Old 03-14-2018, 02:57 PM   #1925
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Isn't Learning only active until 4800 max? In which case you'd run lean at the top of every gear.
4800 is the factory break point- but this can be adjusted in the tune.

Yes- maybe- depends on the intake

but that's a different story
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