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Old 10-22-2020, 12:58 PM   #1
currancchs
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Default ECU Pulls Fuel at Idle - Lean Just Off Idle --- SOLVED!!!

Solution in Post #21 - Thank you to all who helped, here and on the RomRaider forums, both in this thread and through PMs. Wouldn't have been able to solve this issue and finally enjoy my car without your help!

Original Post:
Been trying to resolve this issue for some time now. When I purchased the vehicle, the previous owner had set it to idle in open loop, and it did idle just fine in open loop. Turns out, the vehicle had a significant number of boost leaks, bad primary and secondary oxygen sensors, and a number of other, minor issues. Once I resolved those issues and set the car to idle in CL, idle has always been a bit wandery. More specifically, AFR jumps around from 13-16 or so as the RPMs drop to idle (after the fuel injectors switch back on, around 1000RPM or so) and then settles to 13.6-15.4 or so after about 3-5 seconds, with a noticeable surge of about 100RPM or so continuing indefinitely. Occasionally, the vehicle will surge (by a few hundred RPM) to over 1,000 RPM before slowly settling back down to idle; feels like it thinks its going to stall and does this to prevent that.

The vehicle also seems to have a small misfire at very low idle speeds (i.e. right around 700RPM). This miss then makes the O2 sensor read very lean, prompting a large surge and correction. The miss does not occur under load, but does occur while trying to maintain approximately 2k RPM in neutral. Roughness monitors seem to show the miss occurring on different cylinders (i.e. not just on one).

Also, timing at idle seems to fluctuate from about 6 degrees to about 20.5 degrees. I believe that the engine is trying to adjust RPM using timing and that this is somewhat normal, but the range of timing seems excessive to me.

While I was able to get it to idle much more smoothly by playing around with the load compensation tables, the compensations I had to apply to get there seemed excessive (i.e. 7-10% compensations at very low idle, sharp transition to no compensations).

Oddly, the vehicle runs great on part throttle or at WOT.

I have tried to raise the MAF scale on MAF low voltages and then lower it just above those values, but this has not delivered good results. It seems that no matter how I adjust the MAF scale that I wind up having a lean issue when just barely getting on the throttle from idle. As soon as the throttle plate begins to open, my AF corrections go up drastically before settling back to normal around 1.4 volts or so. The 1.2-1.35 range seems unscalable...

I recently replaced my fuel injectors since I was maxing out the stock ones and had hoped that would resolve my issue, as I suspected a leaky injector, but the same pattern has emerged.

Relevant modifications are as follows:
Open Source Tune (self-tuned)
TD05-20G (eBay turbo rebuilt with decent components)
Walbro 255LPH Fuel Pump
Silicone TIP
Injen CAI (SP1022) - Filter in passenger wheel well
Grimmspeed EBCS
Radium Engineering AOS
Invidia Q300 Downpipe back
3'' eBay DP (no cat)
DW750cc Injectors (Newer, Bosch EV14 units - car had this issue before their installation)
STi metal accelerator pedal put into stock pedal housing

Recent repairs:
New MAF
Two new Primary O2 sensors (thought the first may have been bad)
One new ignition coil
New plugs, one step colder (Denso IK22 if I recall correctly)
Boost leaks repaired (including replacing the brake booster)

Other relevant information:
-Rear O2 correction completely disabled using MerpMod ROM (Open source/Tactrix tune)
-Tried isolating the MAF from the metal of the CAI since the MAF appeared to be grounding through the intake. This did seem to help a bit, but not much.
-Smoke tested intake and exhaust
-Recently had entire exhaust off from heads back and replaced all gaskets with either factory or Grimmspeed gaskets (problem was present before and after, I had suspected a pre-O2 leak at one time)
-I just ordered a factory airbox and will be installing it this weekend, reverting to the stock MAF scale and load comps, and then adjusting the injector settings to see if my issue is turbulent flow in the CAI and to obtain a proper injector scale
-I also ordered an inline fuel pressure gauge and will be confirming idle fuel pressure is appropriate and that the FPR is working correctly this weekend
-Throttle duty cycle is quite erratic when monitoring, but throttle plate angle is stable

Pictures of recent MAF scaling attempt and screenshot of logging page showing mins/maxes/idle values (snapshot) attached. Keep in mind that the slope of my MAF scale is almost certainly due to incorrect latency values, which I am in the process of adjusting and the scalar may also be a bit off. I believe that these charts do show the general issue though.


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Last edited by currancchs; Yesterday at 12:23 PM. Reason: Changed to Solved
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Old 10-26-2020, 02:06 PM   #2
currancchs
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Default Weekend update

So, got a bit lazy this weekend and didn't get around to the compression and leakdown tests. Also, the airbox just showed up a few minutes ago (was supposed to arrive Saturday), so haven't have a chance to test it yet.

I did, however, add some very low MAF voltage cells back into my MAF scale; I had previously removed those cells (i.e. anything below 1.05v, car idles at 1.2v) because I wanted to extend my MAF scale past 4.69v since I was hitting about 4.65v. I also adjusted injector latency up about 6% twice (from .66 @14v (DW's recommendation) - also changed other voltages by the same percentage). These changes alone oddly seemed to tighten up the gap between the low idle corrections and just off idle corrections (low idle barely got richer, but off-idle got quite a bit richer), but the jump is still there (may 12-15% jump now). Forgot to take a picture for comparison... Maybe the ECU uses the really low cells to interpolate an idle value from the cell a few columns to its right and was bottoming out at low MAF voltages without those columns?

With the smaller jump, the car actually idles reasonably well, although it takes a few seconds to settle out and still surges every so often; the idle misfire is no longer present though (this makes me hopeful that its not a burnt exhaust valve or low compression!).

Also, perhaps of interest, when idle does surge, it seems to slowly lower from 900RPM to about 750RPM, but then drops pretty quickly to 500RPM before starting over at about 900RPM after surging to about 1000RPM. I could probably just increase my idle RPM to about 750RPM or even 800RPM and completely avoid the issue, but really prefer getting things to work at stock settings if I don't know of a good reason why a particular change would be required (don't want to tune around mechanical issues).

Also, I installed an underhood fuel pressure gauge for testing and noticed that the idle fuel pressure is high. More specifically, hot idle pressure is ~44psi while I'm pulling a manifold vacuum of ~-22-24 in.-Hg, which seems almost 10psi high to me (should be 43.5psi at 0 vacuum and about 34-36psi under idle vacuum). I took a quick video of the underhood gauge at a somewhat warm idle (vehicle was still warming up) where fuel pressure shows even a bit higher, at 48psi at idle. Notably, the pressure jumps quite a bit during a few quick throttle blips (I understand manifold vacuum decreases, resulting in the jump, but thought pressure should also bounce quite low during the very low vacuum created by the closed throttle plate and off-idle RPM, which doesn't seem to happen in my case).

Lastly, I hooked up a vacuum pump (Mityvac, hand pump) to the FPR to intake manifold line and pulled a vacuum on the FPR after allowing it to prime (engine off). Somewhat unexpectedly, the fuel pressure after prime was 44psi and pulling a -24in.-Hg vacuum on it (idle) resulted in 38psi of fuel pressure (I think it should have gone down a bit more, but was expecting it to be higher, since it is higher when running). Also notable, pulling a bit more than idle vacuum (only went down to about -26in.-Hg for fear of damaging the FPR), pressure did not seem to reduce further (diaphragm bottomed out?). Could my FPR not be bypassing well enough to reduce the pressure (I think it should be able to handle a 255lph Walbro though...)?

Given the above, I am going to investigate my fuel pressure issue further and report back before spending time investigating other areas. I have a sneaking suspicion the previous owner crushed the FPR dimple a bit to lower the injector duty cycle, allowing the stock 550cc injectors to keep up with a (eBay) TD05-20G at 16psi (97% IDC @6300RPM @16.4psi @4.65 MAFv @10.8:1 AFR on stock injectors), which is how I received the car. It may also explain why the pump was not keeping up at high revs and causing the mixture to go lean when I got the car (i.e. I suspect the factory pump wouldn't tolerate 60+psi for long - I replaced with a Walbro 255LPH pump). That being said, my findings with the hand vacuum pump seem to contradict this and I don't want to throw parts at the problem.

Video of fuel pressure at idle here:

I plan on installing the factory airbox tonight, reverting to the factory MAF scale, and seeing how my fuel trims look. May also test fuel pressure with an alternate gauge to confirm and then, if high fuel pressure is confirmed, at least clean, but possibly replace, the FPR with new OEM FPR.

Will update with more information once available!

Last edited by currancchs; 10-27-2020 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 10-28-2020, 04:44 PM   #3
currancchs
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Another update - Weather has been crappy these last few days, so I haven't gotten around to swapping in the factory airbox for testing, but I did order a new, OEM FPR and also blew out the return line (seemed clear to me, but a better test, I think, would be to install a temporary gauge in that line and check back pressure).

Also, I recalled (when reviewing my tune) that I had set "minimum tip-in enrichment (throttle)" to 1.6% (stock for other years) from stock, which was 0.5%. The idea was to keep tip-in from coming into play during and skewing my MAF scaling efforts. The change was intended to be temporary, but I forgot to revert back to stock, partially because I am still attempting to scale the MAF! Seems like this could have something to do with running very lean on only the tiniest throttle input and OK elsewhere. I have reverted this change to stock and will test as soon as my new FPR arrives (scheduled for Friday).

Lastly, in searching the forums, it seems that some people have had issues with their fuel pump running a high duty cycle (i.e. 100%) at idle, despite being programmed to run at 33/66/100% DC, depending on MAP pressure and IPW. I have these tables in my map and confirmed that they were set to factory values, but have not logged fuel pump DC at idle. This is first on my list once I get the FPR installed, especially since the Walbro 255lph pump (GSS342) at 100% DC apparently overruns the FPR slightly at idle, resulting in ~43psi at idle, which is what I am seeing. This would also explain the FPR providing normal pressures following priming, including where I have applied positive pressure or vacuum to the reference port during priming (used a handheld vacuum pump, kept pressure/vacuum within reason, i.e. what the FPR would be exposed to during normal operation --- -24in.-Hg to 16psi). Apparently a bad sensor can cause this high duty cycle.

Will update with more information ASAP!

P.s. I am also troubleshooting this issue over on the RomRaider forums, here:
https://www.romraider.com/forum/view...p?f=15&t=17722

That thread contains some additional information regarding zero'ing of AF3 correct (rear 02) values, which were partially, but not completely, zero'd in my original tune.
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Old 10-30-2020, 06:34 PM   #4
tabrad
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What are you using for your:
- Injector Latency
- Low pulse width fuel injector compensation

Also, the romraider thread your signature says you are using an ej257? So you have an STi swap? What year? So would these be sidefeed injectors or topfeeds?

Sorry your image will not open in romraider for me, its a bit too hard to track down all of these specialized rom mods and such. I use Cobb to do my tuning, so haven't put a huge amount of time into the hours of searching required for RomRaider's definitions.

I have a similar "searching for idle" issue on my 06 STi with 850cc DW sidefeeds and a 300LPH DW pump. I have been able to somewhat successfully get the AFRs to settle in a tighter range at idle. The latency is very important, as well as the low IPW compensations. I still don't have mine perfect, but it is much better than it was originally.

I created a tool that takes logs of IPW and fuel corrections and makes suggestions for changing the small IPW compensations. Maybe it could be useful if that is your problem as well.
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Old 10-30-2020, 06:54 PM   #5
currancchs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tabrad View Post
What are you using for your:
- Injector Latency
- Low pulse width fuel injector compensation

Also, the romraider thread your signature says you are using an ej257? So you have an STi swap? What year? So would these be sidefeed injectors or topfeeds?

Sorry your image will not open in romraider for me, its a bit too hard to track down all of these specialized rom mods and such. I use Cobb to do my tuning, so haven't put a huge amount of time into the hours of searching required for RomRaider's definitions.

I have a similar "searching for idle" issue on my 06 STi with 850cc DW sidefeeds and a 300LPH DW pump. I have been able to somewhat successfully get the AFRs to settle in a tighter range at idle. The latency is very important, as well as the low IPW compensations. I still don't have mine perfect, but it is much better than it was originally.

I created a tool that takes logs of IPW and fuel corrections and makes suggestions for changing the small IPW compensations. Maybe it could be useful if that is your problem as well.
Thank you for the questions and suggestions!

Regarding my RomRaider signature, it is incorrect. My engine is an EJ255. Thank you for pointing this out, it has since been corrected in my signature on RomRaider.

Regarding my ROM, yeah, it is a bit of a pain to open because it uses a development version of the merpmod flash patch that is kind of hard to find (I love the CEL flash on feedback knock though, so worth it to me). Happy to provide the information here though!

My latencies are currently:
6.5v - 2.49ms
9.00v - 1.76ms
11.50v - 1.18ms
14.00v - 0.78ms
16.50v - 0.53ms

At the time the pictures in post 1 were posted, however, latencies were:
6.5v - 2.22ms
9.00v - 1.56ms
11.50v - 1.05ms
14.00v - 0.69ms
16.50v - 0.47ms

My "low pulse width fuel injector compensation maximum IPW is 0.600ms" and is the only defined "Low PW Injector Comp" (this is a group in ECU Flash) in my ROM (A8DH202X). "Low Pulse Width Fuel Injector Compensation" is undefined and greyed out for me. If this is an important variable, however, I do have IDA pro set up and modified using XMLtoIDC, so I may be able to piece together enough information to find the address, although I am a bit of a noob using IDA...

If relevant, my IPW at idle is ~1.75ms (750cc injectors, scaled to 683cc).

Regarding injector latencies and scaling, my starting point was found here:
https://www.deatschwerks.com/subaru-calibrations

More specifically, here:
https://www.deatschwerks.com/sites/w...h%20Format.xls

Regarding the tool that you made, I would love to take a look at it, if you don't mind sharing!

Lastly, as far as next steps go, I think that my main issues I should resolve before investigating tuning issues further is my high idle fuel pressure (new FPR was supposed to arrive today, but delayed due to snow - too soon!) and put on the factory airbox for injector tuning. After I have done so, I will post up more information and hopefully get to the bottom of this!

Best,
Matt

Last edited by currancchs; 11-24-2020 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 10-30-2020, 08:07 PM   #6
tabrad
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If you look at the landing page on DW calibrations, and download the Cobb spreadsheet, you will see the table "Fuel Injector Trim" which is equal to what Cobb calls "Fuel Injector Trim (small IPW)" and what can be defined in RomRaider as "Low Pulse Width Fuel Injector Compensation" (see RomRaider thread here with some definitions).

Basically what happens is that injectors have a linear range and a non linear range for deadtimes. The linear range for DW's (at least my side feed 850's) seems to be around 1.50ms and higher. Anything below that has nonlinear compensations that need to be applied. My idle is in the 0.6-0.8ms range depending on what latency I have dialed in (latency is added to that value).

What I have found with my 850s, and my current latency settings, is that fuel needs to be removed down low in a curved fashion (the lower the ms, the more fuel to remove). I suppose one way to do this is to really remove latency significantly because latency impacts low range more than high range, but when doing that I got way beyond DW's recommended starting points so that indicated to me that something else is off.

Downloading the A8DH200X stock rom (not sure how close to yours that actually would be) shows that stock Low IPW compensations are: +26.5% @ 0.3ms, +16.4% @ 0.35ms, +10.1% @ 0.4ms, +5.5%@0.45ms, +2.3%@0.50ms, +0.8%@0.55ms, and then 0 after that. It also has the Low IPW max IPW at 0.6, meaning that after 0.6ms there is no compensation applied from this table.

Now look at the DW table for the 750's. -14.6% at 0.33ms... and up to +2.4% compensation at 1.198ms!

Way different than the stock image. DW has negative compensations down low, and some slight positive compensations that are way high than the stock image's low IPW compensations.

Since you have your max compensation set at 0.5, that basically would indicate that you have all compensations probably turned off. When you say you idle at 1.75, do you mean 1.75 base IPW, or 1.75 IPW including latency compensation?

Also concerning my tool, its sort of raw right now. And not easy to use unless you have linux and can clone and compile a Qt project (easy with linux, somewhat easy with mac, annoyingly difficult with windows). If you want to give me a log of you idling after the engine warms up and goes into closed loop, I would be happy to throw it in and see what it says. I would just need time, Base IPW, AFC1, AFL1, closed loop status, MAF volts, commanded fuel. If it is something you are interested in let me know. But of course, you would have to define the table on your ROM to make it have any practical use.
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Old 10-30-2020, 08:26 PM   #7
currancchs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tabrad View Post
If you look at the landing page on DW calibrations, and download the Cobb spreadsheet, you will see the table "Fuel Injector Trim" which is equal to what Cobb calls "Fuel Injector Trim (small IPW)" and what can be defined in RomRaider as "Low Pulse Width Fuel Injector Compensation" (see RomRaider thread here with some definitions).

Basically what happens is that injectors have a linear range and a non linear range for deadtimes. The linear range for DW's (at least my side feed 850's) seems to be around 1.50ms and higher. Anything below that has nonlinear compensations that need to be applied. My idle is in the 0.6-0.8ms range depending on what latency I have dialed in (latency is added to that value).

What I have found with my 850s, and my current latency settings, is that fuel needs to be removed down low in a curved fashion (the lower the ms, the more fuel to remove). I suppose one way to do this is to really remove latency significantly because latency impacts low range more than high range, but when doing that I got way beyond DW's recommended starting points so that indicated to me that something else is off.

Downloading the A8DH200X stock rom (not sure how close to yours that actually would be) shows that stock Low IPW compensations are: +26.5% @ 0.3ms, +16.4% @ 0.35ms, +10.1% @ 0.4ms, +5.5%@0.45ms, +2.3%@0.50ms, +0.8%@0.55ms, and then 0 after that. It also has the Low IPW max IPW at 0.6, meaning that after 0.6ms there is no compensation applied from this table.

Now look at the DW table for the 750's. -14.6% at 0.33ms... and up to +2.4% compensation at 1.198ms!

Way different than the stock image. DW has negative compensations down low, and some slight positive compensations that are way high than the stock image's low IPW compensations.

Since you have your max compensation set at 0.5, that basically would indicate that you have all compensations probably turned off. When you say you idle at 1.75, do you mean 1.75 base IPW, or 1.75 IPW including latency compensation?

Also concerning my tool, its sort of raw right now. And not easy to use unless you have linux and can clone and compile a Qt project (easy with linux, somewhat easy with mac, annoyingly difficult with windows). If you want to give me a log of you idling after the engine warms up and goes into closed loop, I would be happy to throw it in and see what it says. I would just need time, Base IPW, AFC1, AFL1, closed loop status, MAF volts, commanded fuel. If it is something you are interested in let me know. But of course, you would have to define the table on your ROM to make it have any practical use.
Thank you for all of that information, which is incredibly helpful! I had essentially modified all tables I had access to that included pulse width by a multiplier (i.e. old scalar/new scalar) and assumed that since I wasn't using a large injector, relative to most, that the rest would be OK. I can certainly see why there would be such a difference though at low IPW after looking at the non-linear values you provided!

Regarding my IPW, I believe the IPW I cited (1.75ms) was incorrect. After going through a few of my recent logs, I think that I might have been thinking of injector duty cycle, since that was definitely a parameter I've been logging lately and shows around 1.75% around idle. Sorry for the confusion.

Regarding the logs, I'll get those to you ASAP, but want to install the new FPR and factory airbox first to avoid compounding errors. Should be able to get that done this weekend. In the meantime, I will attempt to obtain access to the missing table for low IPW and share whatever I find.
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Old 10-30-2020, 11:19 PM   #8
currancchs
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Arrow New information

Haven't worked on the car yet, but progress on the ECU Tables (thanks td-d and others for the hints/information)!

So far, I've found (or stumbled on other's finds) the following tables:
  • Wastegate Solenoid Pulse Frequency --- c026a
  • Low Pulse Width Fuel Injector Compensation (Injector Pulse Width) --- C8d5c
  • Low Pulse Width Fuel Injector Compensation (base pulse width (ms)) --- C83dc
  • Low Pulse Width Fuel Injector Compensation Maximum IPW --- C8740 (OEM Value = 0.600ms - ignore picture)
  • Low Pulse Width Fuel Injector Compensation Maximum RPM --- c873c
  • Fuel Pump Duty Cycle High Injector Duty Cycle (X-Axis ***8211; Raw ECU) --- ccb98
  • Minimum IPW --- c82dc (OEM Value = 0.500ms - ignore picture)

OEM Values show in below screenshot:

Last edited by currancchs; 11-24-2020 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 10-31-2020, 04:31 PM   #9
tabrad
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Glad to see that you found the definitions. I would suggest trying the Cobb values for latency when you match the small IPW compensation table. My guess is that their ECUFlash latencies over or under compensate for latency because they were done without also altering the small IPW table.
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Old 10-31-2020, 05:30 PM   #10
currancchs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tabrad View Post
Glad to see that you found the definitions. I would suggest trying the Cobb values for latency when you match the small IPW compensation table. My guess is that their ECUFlash latencies over or under compensate for latency because they were done without also altering the small IPW table.
Makes sense, thanks for the tip. Just went to install the airbox I bought a few weeks ago and turns out it was listed incorrectly/is the wrong part. Just ordered a new (used) OEM airbox (still haven't received FPR). Should receive new airbox by the end of the week though.
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Old 11-02-2020, 03:50 PM   #11
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Default Quick update

Another update - Modified my map to use the OEM MAF scale in preparation for receiving an OEM airbox (including snorkus and ram air, wanted to be complete) this Friday. Also, received and installed the new FPR this afternoon (priming is much quieter, no idea why, and pressure about 5psi lower after priming), but will wait to start and test until after the OEM intake arrives, so not sure if this resolved my high idle fuel pressure issue. Lastly, I changed the low IPW injector parameters in my map to match those provided in the Deatschwerks Subaru/Cobb datasheet (also attached - table headings also modified to match, let me know if you think this may cause issues!). Will provide a further update ASAP, hopefully by next weekend.

Latest ROM revision and copy of DW's Cobb datasheet for the Bosch EV14, 750cc injectors can be found in my Rom Raider thread, linked earlier in this thread (couldn't figure out how to attach the files here).

Last edited by currancchs; 11-03-2020 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 11-02-2020, 09:58 PM   #12
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You are correct to match the table headings. Hopefully all of your changes will give you a better starting point (including the new OEM parts).
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Old 11-05-2020, 01:46 PM   #13
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Mine does the same using stock 565 dark blues and running stock air box. I do run 58psi fuel pressure. It did it worse before I bypassed the fuel pump module. Now it stabilizes better
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Old 11-05-2020, 01:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvauto View Post
Mine does the same using stock 565 dark blues and running stock air box. I do run 58psi fuel pressure. It did it worse before I bypassed the fuel pump module. Now it stabilizes better
Interesting... Thanks for sharing!
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Old 11-10-2020, 01:21 PM   #15
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First off, fuel pressure is now 36psi at idle with the FPR vacuum line attached and 44psi without, so I believe I did have a fuel pressure issue caused by a bad regulator, but fixing that issue does not appear to have helped much, if at all.

Also, I performed a relative compression test, which didn't show anything obvious to me.

I did a fair amount of logging and was able to capture the issue. I am now noticing that the vehicle transitions between idling very rich (pulls 25% fuel, wideband about a foot past turbo in DP and factory O2 agree that AFR is ~12.3:1) and idling just a tad lean (but in line with other data points, so likely a simple scaling or latency adjustment would resolve that). Notably, there are very few values between these two bands of values (like something switches on or off, then the AFR swings rapidly).

Also, I went WOT and hit 10.7 AFR @6000RPM @16.8psi @3.05 load, where I should be at 10.94:1 AFR, so pretty close on my scalar (please correct me if I'm wrong!), although cruise is just a tad lean with no real slope evident. This was more of a sanity check than anything else, just to make sure my scalar was in the ballpark (recommended is 683cc, I wound up at 690cc).

Oddly, electrical load seems to have something to do with the changeover between pig rich and OK lean (i.e. in line with other values). I was able to turn the headlights and blower on (without AC) and got AFR at idle to swing from full rich to adding ~5% fuel to maintain stoich; although this was mostly repeatable, it did not happen every time. Turning on the AC was effective every time, but I understand this puts quite a bit more load on the engine, so could just be that causing it to clean up.

Also a bit odd is that my AFR seems to get stuck rich occasionally when cruising. For instance, cruising at very very low throttle openings can cause AFR to go rich and corrections to go full negative and stay there until I get out of the throttle and get back into it.

The apparent dependence of AFR on electrical load led me to log battery voltage, but that doesn't seem to fluctuate meaningfully at idle, although latency, which I also logged, fluctuates more than I expected (from ~.69ms to .85ms).

Also, MAP pressure seems to rise on very low throttle openings (~-9.84psi to low -10's), whereas I would expect it to fall, but could be wrong.

Logs of idle and cruise with various parameters attached to Rom Raider thread (see here: https://www.romraider.com/forum/view...p?f=15&t=17722). Latency is set +0.07ms from provided setting of 0.66ms (so .73ms) @ 14v, with other latencies being scaled by the same percentage.

Lastly, I am seeing a ton of feedback knock at very low RPMs and loads (i.e. less than 2k RPM and less than 0.8 load). Not overly concerned due to the low loads involved, but figured I'd mention it in the event it is relevant. I will be tuning timing better immediately after resolving my current issue, and have found a bit higher timing than what I'm currently running in those areas to clear things up in the past.

Pictures below:

MAF Scaling Tab (I find it more informative, at a glance, than the Injector scaling tab. Also, fueling is tighter than it looks, due to AFR either being positive or negative, but not really in between, other than during a short transition period):


Relative compression test results (seems OK to me, done hot):


Learning View (Interesting to me in that it shows slightly positive long term idle trims...):


A video of my idle fluctuating between rich and pulling 25% fuel and slightly positive fuel trims can be found here:

Thanks for reading!

Last edited by currancchs; 11-11-2020 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 11-11-2020, 02:15 PM   #16
currancchs
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Some quick analysis of what I posted last night (I've finally had a chance to go through it better) and also wanted to lay out my next steps (let me know if you suggest differently!)

After looking at my logs, I do not believe that there is any connection between battery voltage, latency, or misfires and my AFR swings. Maybe it was just the increased load (and throttle opening) that corrected the rich idle during my logs/video (see previous post).

There DO, however, appear to be correlations between MAP and RPM as well as throttle opening and RPM. For example, at high idle RPMs, say about 850+ RPM, 2.75% throttle opening seems to mostly result in -25% idle trims, while at lower RPM it does not, as much - also, at higher openings, i.e. 3.14%, no negative trims were observed while negative trims were observed at most 1.96% throttle openings and below. Regarding MAP, I noticed that -9.5psi (around -19.5in-Hg) resulted in a relatively normal AFR at idle while anything below -10psi (~-20in-hg) seemed to result in very rich running that could not be compensated for fully (note that my manifold vacuum decreases (goes more negative) on very low throttle openings - not sure if this is normal or not).

The previous statements are based on my opening of the logs attached to my previous post in excel, sorting the data by fuel trims, and then scrolling through the sorted data to see if I could identify any trends or correlations.

Also interesting to me is that my IPW does not appear to go below 2.05ms at idle even when the ECU is pulling 25% fuel... It does occasionally go as low as 1.79ms at idle, but goes even lower only during cruise (I saw 0.77ms during cruise in the "with MAP and AFR sensors" and other logs, but NEVER at idle).

Since the engine idles great at 12-12.7:1 (don't want to leave it like this though, since there is obviously an issue and I have long-term concerns about oil dilution with fuel at these AFRs, at idle at least) and the relative compression test didn't indicate anything obvious, I'm leaning away from an internal mechanical issue (e.g. tight exhaust valves) at this time.

Also, it almost seems like I could adjust my "Target Throttle Plate Position (Idle)" table to shoot for a larger throttle opening at idle to resolve these symptoms (currently, it is set to .94%, 1.90%, and 2.78% at 2.00, 3.00, and 4.00 g/s of MAF, setting 3.0 to about 3 seems like it is what the car would like, based on my logs). Not sure of what other tables this might affect though, so going to hold off on that for now. Almost thinking that this could all point to a dirty throttle body...

My next steps, roughly in order (based on what is easiest/cheapest and most likely):
-Check alternator for AC ripple using oscilloscope (easy to do, could cause weird issues, besides, just got the oscilloscope and want to test it out some more!)
-Reflash unpatched tune (I had previously used a Russian website to patch my tune and noticed the odd AFR sticking behavior at low throttle openings during cruise after that, want to rule out the Russian patch not playing nice with my MerpMod ROM).
-Clean throttle body (if the throttle body is dirty, could this act as a choke, causing my idle richness? I would think it wouldn't, since the fuel would be injected regardless, but maybe the lack of air prevents complete combustion?)
-Seafoam intake (to inspect for exhaust leaks, not because I think Seafoam will magically cure my issue!)
-Verify timing (visual inspection of belt/marks - timing belt is relatively new, about a year old, I installed it. The issue was present before and after, but can't hurt to check).
-Add back in low load timing (I start at .3g/rev in my current map, due to needing more resolution on the top end (hitting 3.15 g/rev - could this sudden advance off idle cause issues? - my upper-left timing square is ~23 degrees)
-Leak down test (to confirm exhaust valves are sealing)
-Check valve clearance

I will continue to update this thread as I work on the vehicle.

Last edited by currancchs; 11-12-2020 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 11-11-2020, 07:38 PM   #17
currancchs
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Got around to the AC Ripple, reflash, and TB cleaning sooner than I thought I might and have some interesting results to share. Log of warmup and short ride followed by a short idle at full temp at the end attached (forgot to get wideband working before logging, was looking at the actual display for reference and didn't notice it wasn't reading through the logger, but mostly in fuel control, so not too much lost I think - oops).

First, I cleaned the throttle body. I believe I had done this previously, but may not have done a thorough job (can't remember if I just sprayed it down and scrubbed without opening the plate first). This time, I jammed the accelerator pedal open with a rod and left the key on so I could get to the edges of the plate and the outside ring where they meet the housing. It was pretty dirty actually. See below for pictures:



Next, using an oscilloscope hooked up to the alternator B+ terminal and casing, I noticed a bit of repeating noise when just turning on the key (I had hooked up the oscilloscope to the alternator to test AC ripple, it was in AC coupling mode at the time). The signal was about 150-200mv in amplitude. During and after reflashing, the signal was not present. Very weird.

After starting the vehicle, the AC ripple on my alternator doesn't look great, but maybe I'm not doing something correctly, as I had trouble getting a good readout on my wife's car, which is not suspected of having any issues. A picture of the AC ripple is copied below:


Somewhat surprisingly, after starting the vehicle and letting it warm up a bit, it idled great and MAF voltages seemed a few hundreths of a volt higher than they usually are. The car ran normally on a short drive and reached operating temp during the drive. Upon parking and returning to idle, the idle did begin to dip rich and corrections swung to -25%, but AFR stayed right around 14.7:1, so the ECU seems to have almost been in control. Certainly an improvement in any case! Again, the throttle plate reaching opening values of 1.96% or less seems to trigger, or at least occur simultaneously with, this issue.

While I am not sure of the root cause, I believe that by setting my minimum throttle opening angle % at idle to around 2.75%, I can avoid this unscalable/correctable/non-linear portion of my fueling/MAF curve altogether. The only reasons I can guess for this behavior are as follows:

1. My throttle body is still a bit dirty, which is certainly possible since I cleaned it on the vehicle without unbolting, couldn't see the back edge of the throttle plate, and used a toothbrush and rag on a screwdriver to clean since I didn't want to stick my fingers between the throttle plate and housing;
2. My throttle body has an issue at low throttle openings; or
3. The different intercooler (process west), turbo (TD05-20G), and turbo inlet (silicone) change the characteristics of the intake such that they require a larger throttle opening for some reason.

I will flash the new map and report back ASAP!

Last edited by currancchs; Yesterday at 12:16 PM.
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Old 11-17-2020, 12:22 PM   #18
currancchs
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So, changing the minimum throttle opening at idle did not have the desired affect. The vehicle still idled, but a bit higher than usual (about 1000RPM) until a bit after full coolant temp was reached, then gradually came down and started pulling a bunch of fuel, with AFR being around 12.5:1 with -25% AF corrections... I do not believe this to be related to ECT, since my car should idle around 700RPM at much lower ECTs than it did, or to intake temps (it was cold and these stayed low); seems to be related to heat soak (could a sensor be getting hot and failing? Haven't seen any such behavior in my logs though).

Also, I have confirmed that the AFR goes completely normal (i.e. 14.7:1 with minimal AF Corrections) at idle when a load is placed on the motor (usual idle load is .2-.25 g/rev, load w/AC or even headlights is around .3 g/rev). The engine also surges slightly when the load is first put on the motor (i.e. turning the headlights on causes the AFR to shoot up, the engine to labor for a second, then things settle down).

In light of my change to minimum idle throttle opening not making a difference, I put the setting back to stock (0.12%) and, in an unrelated matter, played around with low load timing to get rid of some knock issues I was having at very low loads (i.e. less than 0.8 g/rev between 1200-2000 RPM and a bit at around 2600RPM and 0.8-0.95 g/rev). Interestingly, increasing timing in the low load areas seemed to help quite a bit while decreasing timing in the 2600RPM area also helped.

I plan on re-cleaning the throttle body and checking/adding some ground wires (due to the electrical dependence of my issue) in the next few days. I may also install a bone stock map with fueling changes only (to accommodate my injectors) to rule out corruption in the map (I will probably also just 0 out the wastegate tables). I will update again after those changes.
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Old 11-19-2020, 01:32 AM   #19
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Awesome posts and investigations! Thanks for continuing to post all of this. I am sure it will be very helpful for someone random that googles these problems in the future.

A couple of thoughts...

- To help bandaid the issue you can adjust the idle error compensations to have less reaction to the idle speed being off. Since your injectors are bigger than stock, it does make sense to reduce the error response to some degree. I believe this response is what causes the opening and closing of the throttle body that you see, and is probably the better spot to tune that than the minimum opening.

- Have you been doing the tuning of any of your fueling of MAF scaling based on idle before coolant is to temp? For my current tuning of my fueling, I see that the ECU is adding around 10-15% fuel until about 200 seconds after startup, and then there is a significant difference in the sound of the exhaust and the corrections suddenly equalize to within 3% of where they should be. So my next step is to tune the post start enrichment table a bit and see if that gets me where I need to be. I wonder if you might have some of your map dialed in to the warmup conditions.

- I noticed that after getting my small IPW tables dialed in pretty well, I was getting misfires in one of my cylinders (logged the roughness of each cylinder). This was happening when the base ipw was low (btw try logging the base pulse width and the latency, if you log final ipw it is too granulated and you will see one high value on idle). I noticed that when the misfire occurred, it was also associated with the AFR becoming more lean within the next row or two of the log. It would lean out anywhere from 0.25 to 1 additional point. I did a simple swap of that cylinder's injector with another cylinder's injector and saw the misfire followed that injector. So my set of injectors from DW has one that does not match the small ipw flows of the others very well. Since it was causing a lean issue, I went into the per injector trim adjustments and added more fuel to that injector at idle rpms.

In general injectors from DW seem to have a hard time with low ipw. So for now I set my idle up to 1000 RPM, and set my closed loop target to 14 AFR. This has raised my base ipw targets to a high enough zone that I can idle with decent, not perfect, AFR stability and avoid the misfires from the mismatched injector.

- Keep in mind that if you have a tank of gas that is below half, then some of your knocking could be caused by that. I was struggling to figure out my low load knock, and then figured out it was speed bumps, corners, and hills when my tank was below half. Fuel starvation from the fuel in the tank sloshing around. If this is possibly your issue, then it can be fixed by filling up more or by adding a surge tank.

I took off the throttle body on mine as one of my debugging steps and gave it a good clean. It didn't change anything for me, as my problems do seem injector driven. Taking it off is pretty easy, you do not need to drain the coolant and can just pinch off the two coolant lines to it with vice grips and rubber or another material to go between the metal of the vice grip and the hose to prevent damage.

Ultimately, after contacting DW and being told that I really need to send in the set of injectors for them to be rematched, I just decided to order the Cobb 1300x injectors and a top feed conversion kit. Apparently they are supposed to flow well at low ipw. Hoping that will solve my issues.

I hope that your issues are not faulty injectors. It does seem to be one of the few remaining things on the list that could be causing the issue though.

Edit: Just looked at your logs... The with MAP, AFR, VVT, IAT... that one is a real strange. Your corrections jump from -20-25% (with learned correction included) to positive 8% for a while, and then jumps back to being maxed out at -25% and AFR so low it is no longer measurable. I really wish the MAF was logged on that one because I would love to see if that was associated with any changes to air intake. Maybe you logged in the middle of a hurricane or something lol. Sorry if you already mentioned this, but are you sure your MAF sensor is good? I wonder if it is randomly reporting garbage data to the ECU.

Last edited by tabrad; 11-19-2020 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 11-20-2020, 01:48 PM   #20
currancchs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tabrad View Post
Awesome posts and investigations! Thanks for continuing to post all of this. I am sure it will be very helpful for someone random that googles these problems in the future.

A couple of thoughts...

- To help bandaid the issue you can adjust the idle error compensations to have less reaction to the idle speed being off. Since your injectors are bigger than stock, it does make sense to reduce the error response to some degree. I believe this response is what causes the opening and closing of the throttle body that you see, and is probably the better spot to tune that than the minimum opening.

- Have you been doing the tuning of any of your fueling of MAF scaling based on idle before coolant is to temp? For my current tuning of my fueling, I see that the ECU is adding around 10-15% fuel until about 200 seconds after startup, and then there is a significant difference in the sound of the exhaust and the corrections suddenly equalize to within 3% of where they should be. So my next step is to tune the post start enrichment table a bit and see if that gets me where I need to be. I wonder if you might have some of your map dialed in to the warmup conditions.

- I noticed that after getting my small IPW tables dialed in pretty well, I was getting misfires in one of my cylinders (logged the roughness of each cylinder). This was happening when the base ipw was low (btw try logging the base pulse width and the latency, if you log final ipw it is too granulated and you will see one high value on idle). I noticed that when the misfire occurred, it was also associated with the AFR becoming more lean within the next row or two of the log. It would lean out anywhere from 0.25 to 1 additional point. I did a simple swap of that cylinder's injector with another cylinder's injector and saw the misfire followed that injector. So my set of injectors from DW has one that does not match the small ipw flows of the others very well. Since it was causing a lean issue, I went into the per injector trim adjustments and added more fuel to that injector at idle rpms.

In general injectors from DW seem to have a hard time with low ipw. So for now I set my idle up to 1000 RPM, and set my closed loop target to 14 AFR. This has raised my base ipw targets to a high enough zone that I can idle with decent, not perfect, AFR stability and avoid the misfires from the mismatched injector.

- Keep in mind that if you have a tank of gas that is below half, then some of your knocking could be caused by that. I was struggling to figure out my low load knock, and then figured out it was speed bumps, corners, and hills when my tank was below half. Fuel starvation from the fuel in the tank sloshing around. If this is possibly your issue, then it can be fixed by filling up more or by adding a surge tank.

I took off the throttle body on mine as one of my debugging steps and gave it a good clean. It didn't change anything for me, as my problems do seem injector driven. Taking it off is pretty easy, you do not need to drain the coolant and can just pinch off the two coolant lines to it with vice grips and rubber or another material to go between the metal of the vice grip and the hose to prevent damage.

Ultimately, after contacting DW and being told that I really need to send in the set of injectors for them to be rematched, I just decided to order the Cobb 1300x injectors and a top feed conversion kit. Apparently they are supposed to flow well at low ipw. Hoping that will solve my issues.

I hope that your issues are not faulty injectors. It does seem to be one of the few remaining things on the list that could be causing the issue though.

Edit: Just looked at your logs... The with MAP, AFR, VVT, IAT... that one is a real strange. Your corrections jump from -20-25% (with learned correction included) to positive 8% for a while, and then jumps back to being maxed out at -25% and AFR so low it is no longer measurable. I really wish the MAF was logged on that one because I would love to see if that was associated with any changes to air intake. Maybe you logged in the middle of a hurricane or something lol. Sorry if you already mentioned this, but are you sure your MAF sensor is good? I wonder if it is randomly reporting garbage data to the ECU.
Hi Tabrad,

Thanks for the suggestions, very much appreciated!

Regarding the weird log with the jumping behavior, definitely odd to me as well! The issue is (mostly) repeatable too; I am able to get AFR to return to the slightly-positive trims (and stay there) by either turning the headlights or blower on (AC doesn't need to be on), although I forget if I was doing that during the specific log at issue. When the AFR swings, MAFv doesn't change much, but it usually a tad lower (i.e. 1.18-1.20v as opposed to 1.24-1.26v) and throttle is usually a bit more closed with a higher vacuum. Ignition timing may also be correlated. Also, the MAF sensor and (primary) O2 sensor are brand-new OEM units, with only a tank or two of gas on them (wanted them to be fresh for tuning).

I have logged battery voltage while experiencing these issues and didn't see any correlation.

Regarding idle error response, I will definitely look into this and have briefly looked at this table in the past.

Regarding MAF scaling before being up to temp, I was definitely guilty of that at one point and learned my lesson. While I do still sometimes monitor MAF scaling during warmup, I clear it before logging to make changes after about 180F ECT. Also, the car is now running the stock airbox and stock MAF scaling, so I assume it should at least be in the ballpark. Interestingly, MAFv is reasonably close to my Injen CAI at idle.

Regarding knock with low fuel, that is very interesting and may explain why I get repeatable knock around one particular uphill, tight, off-camber corner on my way home from work. I'll have to keep the fuel level topped off and see if it makes a difference! Also, I have since updated timing a bit, adding some low-RPM, low-load timing back in and that has improved things considerably. I also had just a touch too much timing around 2600RPM between 0.8-0.95g/rev, and removed about 2 degrees there with good results.

Regarding the

Lastly, regarding the throttle body, I removed and cleaned it yesterday, but it was actually quite clean already on the backside. Was hoping it was dirtier to justify the effort! Waiting for a new gasket (should arrive today) before I put it back together, so no idea if the second cleaning made a difference yet, but I'm not expecting much.

Will update when more information is available. Thanks again!
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Old 11-30-2020, 01:22 PM   #21
currancchs
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Default Solved!!!!!

Finally solved, thanks to a big hint from the Lorax (thank you so much)!

More specifically, the Lorax was kind enough to take a look at a few of my maps and checked for corruption. As a part of that check, he mentioned that he had checked the location of minimum IPW for corruption and did not find any. This was a memory location I had not thought I found yet, so asked him to share the location, which he did. Upon checking the location he provided, it was one that I had previously mapped to "low pulse width compensations maximum IPW," changing the default value of 0.5ms to 1.2ms. My car wanting to idle (hot) at about 1ms with the new injectors combined with my low pw compensations not being applied due to my not changing the "low pulse width compensations maximum IPW" parameter seem to have caused all of my issues, with my original issue perhaps being a bad spraying and/or low flowing stock injector and/or bad MAF scale (I am leaning towards one of the stock injectors being overdue for a cleaning) and the resultant misfires causing AFR to hunt. Unfortunately, when I changed the injectors, I also created the IPW issue at nearly the same time (while tuning latency and scalar), complicating my diagnosis, to say the least!

A log from cold to full hot that includes a 30 minute or so drive (idling at the end) is attached to my RomRaider post, available here: https://www.romraider.com/forum/view...156135#p156135. Fueling corrections are now completely predictable (and yes, my injector scaling still needs a little work, maybe just a touch more latency and then a bit lower scalar, if still needed after the latency change and also need to log for load comps, but this should not be difficult at all now that things are finally predictable).

Current settings are as follows (full tune attached on my Rom Raider Post -see here: https://www.romraider.com/forum/view...156135#p156135 - Tune based on Pickler, Gabdude, and my own work):

Thank you to everyone who reached out or just took the time to read through this post.

Best,
Matt

P.s. Attached tune is for 2006 WRX TR with the following modifications (could be forgetting some...):
  1. Walbro 255 LPH Fuel Pump
  2. DW750 (Bosch EV14) injectors
  3. SAI Delete
  4. Catless DP
  5. 3'' Turboback (Invidia Q300)
  6. TD05-20G
  7. Grimmspeed 3 port EBCS
  8. 1 Step colder plugs (Iridium)
  9. Radium AOS
  10. Silicone Turbo Inlet Pipe

P.s.s. Also attached a log after changing the minimum IPW parameter showing the issue resolved to my RR post (can't figure out how to attach here, sorry for the inconvenience).

See below for screenshot of MAF Scale (recreated in Excel, forgot to take a picture of the RR MAF Scaling tool before closing):

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