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Old 08-09-2022, 04:02 PM   #7501
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Small cars also have taken a big hit due to the pandemic. Manufacturers only have so many chips/supplies and allocated those towards the higher profit vehicles.

Can't blame them, it's a business and they have to maximize profits or lose their jobs.

And yes, CAFE is way to easy to skirt around.
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Old 08-09-2022, 04:03 PM   #7502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littledrummerboy View Post
Its not the size factor dictating these "smaller trucks", its cost and demographics. As they got bigger, so did the price tag. The smaller versions attempt at minimally lowering that price point back to what made trucks sell to begin with. The gigantrons aren't exactly shrinking in sales, its more the smaller trucks/CUVs are reaching different audiences that the standard pickup truck doesn't really cater to. ie. city/burbs with weekend warrior "active" lifestyles.
But a lot of people do not like the full size growth. They are too large in overall size. I agree with you that cost is a thing but these smaller trucks arenít just selling due to cost.

And oil barrel spikes in price also cause a rethink about such large vehicles. Maybe as we see see EV truck adoption this will be less of a concern.
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Old 08-09-2022, 05:16 PM   #7503
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There are a ton of 2000's Ford rangers on the road in my area. Safety standards are what killed smaller trucks (they probably have a hand in the death of smaller vehicles in general) not the lack of interest in smaller/more efficient trucks.

There are plenty of professionals that want a bed but don't do heavy duty hauling. And plenty of people who don't have kids and have little use for a spacious back seat. Whether or not they are "real" truck buyers because of their use case or location is irrelevant. There is a market for smaller trucks.

Sorry to add to the less than on topic tangent.
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Old 08-09-2022, 05:47 PM   #7504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
McDonalds sold more Big Macs

does not make it a good hamburger.

appealing to the Camry buyer does not make a good WRX.

Again. Opinion. Subjective. People don't flock to crap. Is it the best? No. Is it a good value? The Subaru is. My argument is it's the best overall value. I took a long trip in my 2004 STi. Hated it. Too small. Too a long trip in my 2009 WRX. Passenger wise it was better; but, still cramped with all the stuff. We did have a 4th with the WRX and just 3 on the STi trip though. The WRX trip woulda actually been worst though if it was a 5 door. Though, I am one that would prefer the hatch.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Wheelbase is what I look at, rather than overall vehicle length, as a hatch will be shorter overall compared to a sedan, while typically sharing the wheelbase. Also, depending on engine layout, the overall vehicle length will be impacted, so when comparing an impreza to a civic by overall length for instance, the impreza has a ton more nose than the civic because of the engine location and frontal crash safety requirements.

Although comparing wheelbase and vehicle length changes over the years can be an indicator of design change intent. For example, wheelbase only went up 1" between the VA & VB but the overall length went up by 3"; they only gained 0.5cuft of cargo room, so I'd wonder if the majority of it is rear bumper protrusion, and possibly front crash safety requirements.

2002 GD = 99.4"
2008 GE = 103.1"
2015 VA = 104.1"
2018 VB = 105.1"

The problem with the impreza growing is that typically as a car model grows, something smaller slots in under it; it happened with the civic (fit), it happened with the corolla (yaris), happened with the Mazda323/Mazda3 (Mazda2), as for domestics... they throw names around like confetti, and bring them back like a necromancer, but a similar practice has occurred.

Can Subaru make & sell a sub-compact that will be ~4k cheaper than the Impreza, while maintaining some semblance of a profit margin? I'm not sure they can if they stick to the "Everything symmetrical AWD (except the BRZ)" mentality.
Can Subaru achieve the Fuel economy required with the powertrains they currently have? I highly doubt it.
Is there demand for a sub-compact AWD vehicle? Not certain, I'd consider a hot-hatch or wagon version of one, like many enthusiasts would (at least the hatch), but not the vanilla variant, or a hot sedan (some would though), I'm painfully picky when it comes to vehicles, and my tastes are out there (fast wagons for instance).
I've always tried to buy the smallest vehicle that suits my needs while satisfying as many of my wants as possible, and I realize my particular wants do not align with the general public, hence all of the trucks with pristine beds, Jeeps that never go offroad, & single people with CUVs & SUVs.

I've measured and the VA bumper actually sticks out further from the trunk than the hated "protrusion".


Quote:
Originally Posted by OldBlu View Post
I'd argue the crossover craze is what's killing subcompact cars, not midsize sedans. It's not necessarily the size of the cars that bother consumers, it's their distance from the ground.

If Subaru really wanted to benefit from their partnership they'd rebadge the Yaris cross and import that. It would fit nicely under the Crosstrek. Make it look like that forestery looking viziv future concept from years ago. Bring it over as a hybrid and doubly benefit from the fuel economy.

But on the note of crossovers and the WRX, it's hilarious to me that Subaru put cladding on it instead of putting its engine in the Crosstrek. Talk about following market trends and appealing to hatchback buyers who want a shorter vehicle. 176 inches isn't quite as small as the original WRX but it's a lot closer than 183.

I'm not sure I'd buy it, but I'd sooner consider lowering a turbo Crosstrek than buying a Crosstrek sedan.



I seriously doubt Subaru rebadges another company's car for the American market. None of them stack up to Subaru's safety and with their commitment to zero deaths in a Subaru by 2030, I just don't see it.
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Old 08-09-2022, 06:03 PM   #7505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
I've measured and the VA bumper actually sticks out further from the trunk than the hated "protrusion".
The issue isn't the depth of the bumper, it's the number of different planes, which exaggerate the middle of the bumper. Plus the tacked on look and the cheap flat plastic. It's not a sporty diffuser, it's just ugly.



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Old 08-09-2022, 06:06 PM   #7506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
The issue isn't the depth of the bumper, it's the number of different planes, which exaggerate the middle of the bumper. Plus the tacked on look and the cheap flat plastic. It's not a sporty diffuser, it's just ugly.



so stunning and brave!
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Old 08-09-2022, 06:17 PM   #7507
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Justy knows. He's just being extra. The design is flawed. Too many shelves, and this is coming from a guy who grew up around tectonic plates.
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Old 08-09-2022, 07:00 PM   #7508
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Oh wow that red looks great .
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Old 08-09-2022, 07:03 PM   #7509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
I seriously doubt Subaru rebadges another company's car for the American market. None of them stack up to Subaru's safety and with their commitment to zero deaths in a Subaru by 2030, I just don't see it.
Yeah. You're right. We wouldn't want Subaru sharing a car with another company. Its wheels might end up falling off.

Last edited by OldBlu; 08-09-2022 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 08-09-2022, 08:23 PM   #7510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldBlu View Post
Yeah. You're right. We wouldn't want Subaru sharing a car with another company. Its wheels might end up falling off.
That's co-produced, not rebadging.

Sent from my SM-F926U using Tapatalk
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Old 08-09-2022, 08:27 PM   #7511
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Not sure if someone posted this comparison already. If so, please ignore the re-post

WRX vs Civic Si

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...n-test-review/
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Old 08-09-2022, 08:33 PM   #7512
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Is the new Si really that slow ...Yikes.
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Old 08-09-2022, 09:07 PM   #7513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby-Doode View Post
Not sure if someone posted this comparison already. If so, please ignore the re-post

WRX vs Civic Si

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...n-test-review/
Pretty sure the WRX doesn't have a mechanical limited slip.
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Old 08-09-2022, 09:08 PM   #7514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
But a lot of people do not like the full size growth. They are too large in overall size. I agree with you that cost is a thing but these smaller trucks arenít just selling due to cost.

And oil barrel spikes in price also cause a rethink about such large vehicles. Maybe as we see see EV truck adoption this will be less of a concern.
Iím one of those people... I donít like how large theyíve become too, but until the smaller ones dethrone these behemoth trucks as top sellers in North America, the size case is tough (for me) to believe.

Iíd sure like to see the next round in EV trucks. Hopefully theyíre smaller, and more affordable since that would be my next vehicle. Heck, an EV Hyundai Santa Cruz would catch my attention. But I digress...
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Old 08-09-2022, 10:06 PM   #7515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby-Doode View Post
Not sure if someone posted this comparison already. If so, please ignore the re-post

WRX vs Civic Si

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...n-test-review/
"When we tested it, our WRX Limited sprinted from 0 to 60 mph in 6.1 seconds and covered the quarter mile in 14.3 seconds at 97.8 mph. Most of our comparison drivers loved the Subie's grunt but lamented its narrow powerband and early redline."

"Every WRX we've tested since the 2013 model year has been slower than the one before it"

"The 2022 Honda Civic Si is a better choice for both its affordability and all-around excellence. Honda took a great foundation into the 11th-generation Civic and built a fun little machine that also comes through with plenty of practicality. "


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Old 08-09-2022, 10:30 PM   #7516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
The issue isn't the depth of the bumper, it's the number of different planes, which exaggerate the middle of the bumper. Plus the tacked on look and the cheap flat plastic. It's not a sporty diffuser, it's just ugly.
Itís awful. The fender cladding people can get used to or replace with aftermarket or probably OEM in the future (we kinda know Boobaru is going to offer this at some point due to the complaints). But that bumper is awful. How that made it out of design or a focus group escapes any rationality.
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Old 08-09-2022, 10:40 PM   #7517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Straight6 View Post
Is the new Si really that slow ...Yikes.
First time ever a Wrx lost a comparison test to a civic si.

CTR will be competing with Porsches and other track specials
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Old 08-09-2022, 11:21 PM   #7518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
The issue isn't the depth of the bumper, it's the number of different planes, which exaggerate the middle of the bumper. Plus the tacked on look and the cheap flat plastic. It's not a sporty diffuser, it's just ugly.




Oh no no no. I'm not trying to talk about the looks. The comment I was responding to was talking about overall length gain and seemingly blaming a shorter "protrusion".


Quote:
Originally Posted by OldBlu View Post
Yeah. You're right. We wouldn't want Subaru sharing a car with another company. Its wheels might end up falling off.
That's all on Toyota. As the twin's issue is on Subaru.
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Old 08-10-2022, 09:12 AM   #7519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
took a long trip in my 2004 STi. Hated it. Too small. Too a long trip in my 2009 WRX. Passenger wise it was better; but, still cramped with all the stuff. We did have a 4th with the WRX and just 3 on the STi trip though. The WRX trip woulda actually been worst though if it was a 5 door. Though, I am one that would prefer the hatch.
My 06 wrx wagon was the family trip vehicle; we always had enough room for people at cargo; roof racks were never needed on vacations because the hatch area was suitable at ~30cuft.

My 06 was also the tow vehicle (motorcycle trailer, utility trailer, log splitter), it was the HD/Lowes trip vehicle, the Costco grocery getter, etc. etc. it wore a lot of hats, and wore them well, it's utility made up for it's short comings. Every iteration after the GD has given up utility, ability & driver engagement.
GE lost tow rating, hatch instead of wagon, lost mechanical rear diff.
VA lost hatch option, went to cable actuated shifter
VB 6k RPM redline, CUV cladding & a swim deck

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
I've measured and the VA bumper actually sticks out further from the trunk than the hated "protrusion".
I was just offering possible explanations for the length increase, I also noted frontal crash safety requirements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
I seriously doubt Subaru rebadges another company's car for the American market. None of them stack up to Subaru's safety and with their commitment to zero deaths in a Subaru by 2030, I just don't see it.
They're already doing it with the BZ4X/Solterra; although it's a joint venture the hardware and software is all Toyota. It doesn't have the same front camera system as other Subarus, it has the same front camera system as other Toyotas.

Where exactly does Subaru excel at safety that other manufacturers are lagging?

If you look at IIHS top safety picks it's Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Subaru & VW, Hyundai & KIA; even Nissan managed some, Subaru is not represented more than Honda, Toyota or Mazda, and I'm not even considering the areas Subaru doesn't have representation like luxury vehicles or trucks.
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Old 08-10-2022, 10:09 AM   #7520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post




......They're already doing it with the BZ4X/Solterra; although it's a joint venture the hardware and software is all Toyota. It doesn't have the same front camera system as other Subarus, it has the same front camera system as other Toyotas.

Where exactly does Subaru excel at safety that other manufacturers are lagging?

If you look at IIHS top safety picks it's Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Subaru & VW, Hyundai & KIA; even Nissan managed some, Subaru is not represented more than Honda, Toyota or Mazda, and I'm not even considering the areas Subaru doesn't have representation like luxury vehicles or trucks.



The only part of what you just said that bothers me is they didn't use Subaru's EyeSight. Beyond that, you are slightly inaccurate. Subaru is responsible for the things that are distinctly Subaru. The AWD. The Chassis. And even noted in reviews, it drives "Like a Subaru". Of all that, I think the chassis is something both agreed needed to be handled by Subaru. But it is a joint venture where I had thought was a true 50/50 but learned it does lean a tad more Toyota. What I had meant was it wasn't something like a Bighorn or Traviq, or their current Justy. Being built in a Toyota factory is another detractor for me. With new reason as to such.


As for crash testing. Yeah, there are a lot of cars that get Top Safety Pick. But, Subaru has more Top Safety Pick+ than Honda and Toyota combined. And I even mentioned the latest about the side impact of the Outback. Now, granted, I don't know the other 6 models that were tested and if any other them were Toyota. But, I'd buy ya a steak dinner if any Toyota beat Subaru in crash tests.



Kinda odd you are contesting Subaru's crown in safety. That has been known for decades.
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Old 08-10-2022, 10:16 AM   #7521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Pretty sure the WRX doesn't have a mechanical limited slip.
Well, a viscous coupling differential is mechanical compared to a clutch-pack. The articles does not say mechanical, just Limited Slip Differential. I believe the Civic uses a helical front diff, like the STI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
Itís awful. The fender cladding people can get used to or replace with aftermarket or probably OEM in the future (we kinda know Boobaru is going to offer this at some point due to the complaints). But that bumper is awful. How that made it out of design or a focus group escapes any rationality.
I still do not know who the designer is. Most cars have some hot shot guy that leads the team. Subaru has...? I guess I wouldn't want to admit it either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Oh no no no. I'm not trying to talk about the looks. The comment I was responding to was talking about overall length gain and seemingly blaming a shorter "protrusion".
Oh, usually changes in length are due to styling of the bumpers. If above is correct, the wheelbase is only 1" longer, so there is another 2" to account for, which is usually on the ends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
I was just offering possible explanations for the length increase, I also noted frontal crash safety requirements.
Roger.
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Old 08-10-2022, 10:24 AM   #7522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
My 06 wrx wagon was the family trip vehicle; we always had enough room for people at cargo; roof racks were never needed on vacations because the hatch area was suitable at ~30cuft.

My 06 was also the tow vehicle (motorcycle trailer, utility trailer, log splitter), it was the HD/Lowes trip vehicle, the Costco grocery getter, etc. etc. it wore a lot of hats, and wore them well, it's utility made up for it's short comings. Every iteration after the GD has given up utility, ability & driver engagement.
GE lost tow rating, hatch instead of wagon, lost mechanical rear diff.
VA lost hatch option, went to cable actuated shifter
VB 6k RPM redline, CUV cladding & a swim deck


.

Sorry. I had scanned and only saw swim deck(still about that). Didn't see this.


Soo, I still haven't seen anyone answer my question about the redline. People bitched and moaned about how power dropped off around 5700rpm on the 2.0 liter and when dyno charts of the 2.4 came out, there was a similar dip. It just had better power delivery up to that point. Sooo, if the power if dropping off before redline why does it matter that it is 6100? I drove one on a track and can't say I even noticed it. Still didn't notice it when we finally started getting them and I took it for a spin again. I was asking this question before the drive and am now more curious.
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Old 08-10-2022, 10:32 AM   #7523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
The only part of what you just said that bothers me is they didn't use Subaru's EyeSight. Beyond that, you are slightly inaccurate. Subaru is responsible for the things that are distinctly Subaru. The AWD. The Chassis. And even noted in reviews, it drives "Like a Subaru". Of all that, I think the chassis is something both agreed needed to be handled by Subaru. But it is a joint venture where I had thought was a true 50/50 but learned it does lean a tad more Toyota. What I had meant was it wasn't something like a Bighorn or Traviq, or their current Justy. Being built in a Toyota factory is another detractor for me. With new reason as to such.
Chassis tuning & software tuning doesn't equate to "They used Subaru hardware & software" similarly the BRZ & 86 handle differently, but it's still Subaru hardware underneath, Toyota just tuned it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
As for crash testing. Yeah, there are a lot of cars that get Top Safety Pick. But, Subaru has more Top Safety Pick+ than Honda and Toyota combined. And I even mentioned the latest about the side impact of the Outback. Now, granted, I don't know the other 6 models that were tested and if any other them were Toyota. But, I'd buy ya a steak dinner if any Toyota beat Subaru in crash tests.

Kinda odd you are contesting Subaru's crown in safety. That has been known for decades.
Subaru does not have more top safety picks than Honda or Toyota, let alone combined, Honda & Toyota each have more top safety picks than Subaru does.

I'll ask again, Where exactly does Subaru excel at safety that other manufacturers are lagging?
eyesight is Subarus version, but Toyota & Honda each have their own versions.
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Old 08-10-2022, 10:57 AM   #7524
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Concerning IIHS Top Safety Picks, Subaru and Toyota are about even at a glance. Subaru has two vehicles that aren't "+" (Impreza wagon and Crosstrek), while Toyota has four that aren't "+". Otherwise Toyota just manufacturers more vehicles, which means they have more Safety Picks.

In recent new, the Outback just scored on IIHS' improved side impact testing.
https://media.subaru.com/pressreleas...-rating-latest

I don't get the point in acting as though Subaru's AWD and Top Safety aren't noteworthy factors in people's desire to purchase them. What's gained?
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Old 08-10-2022, 10:59 AM   #7525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Chassis tuning & software tuning doesn't equate to "They used Subaru hardware & software" similarly the BRZ & 86 handle differently, but it's still Subaru hardware underneath, Toyota just tuned it.



Subaru does not have more top safety picks than Honda or Toyota, let alone combined, Honda & Toyota each have more top safety picks than Subaru does.

I'll ask again, Where exactly does Subaru excel at safety that other manufacturers are lagging?
eyesight is Subarus version, but Toyota & Honda each have their own versions.



You keep saying Top Safety Pick. I am saying Top Safety Pick+


But you're correct. With the new ratings, Subaru does drop off the "+" list with a few models. Give it a year or two.


And I wouldn't say "lagging" like they are unsafe cars. They just historically don't do as well as Subaru.



And Subaru's EyeSight has also been shown to work better in tests...




.....I'll concede about bad weather; but, would like to know actual numbers where the AEBs actually made a difference in that bad of weather.

ninja edit: But, how many models does Honda and Toyota offer? They, combined, have 9 "+" cars. Subaru has 6. Of their 9 offerings
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