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Old 09-12-2019, 01:08 PM   #26
WRXnick16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
I seriously doubt a car in the STI's price range will have both injection methods.
Agreed in that I don't think the STI will have it.

The $25k BRZ does have dual injection thanks to Toyota's D-4S system so it can be done affordably. With that said, Toyota isn't going to let Subaru use it on the STI. Dual injection certainly is the best of both worlds, but is a more complex and expensive system as you said.

IBR's BRZ intake manifold kit allows for easier adaptation of port injection. The downside is that you need a secondary fuel controller for the injectors since Cobb doesn't offer a pnp solution. I'm sure that better options will become available once the STI is FA powered.
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by F1EA View Post
I doubt it's a reliability issue unless you let it go way out of hand.
right
It's a reliability problem when it gets so bad chunks are breaking loose and one ends up sandwiched on the valve seat and gets squished into place and holds the valve open permanently once it's pounded in a few hundred times

How long would that take?
probably 200k plus mileage with zero service
Eventually it will happen
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:47 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
right
It's a reliability problem when it gets so bad chunks are breaking loose and one ends up sandwiched on the valve seat and gets squished into place and holds the valve open permanently once it's pounded in a few hundred times

How long would that take?
probably 200k plus mileage with zero service
Eventually it will happen
yeah, you'd have to imagine pretty extreme scenarios before something critical could possibly happen...

As far as tuning potential... the FA is already pretty cheap to bring into decent power gains. Not sure where exactly is the limit before you have to drop serious $ on the FA; but I'm pretty sure it's later in the power game than the EJ.
The EJ is cheap to bring into a 'Stage 2' setup but that's about it... from there on it gets really expensive. Doesn't mean the EJ is terrible. I like the powerband and character of the EJ far more than the FA.

But anyways... I would assume if Subaru puts a FAXX on the STI it would have a similar powerband. My guess is for next gen Subaru will drop a FA24 DIT making ~325hp, but with lighter stock wheels to bring 0-60 closer ~4.5s.

Sticking to heavy-ass wheels on the 2019 and 2020 makes their lives easier for next gen but direct injection is the way to go. No doubt.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:43 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
right
It's a reliability problem when it gets so bad chunks are breaking loose and one ends up sandwiched on the valve seat and gets squished into place and holds the valve open permanently once it's pounded in a few hundred times

How long would that take?
probably 200k plus mileage with zero service
Eventually it will happen
My brand new IS350 had carbon buildup at 17k miles, valve job performed, and carbon buildup happened again at 42k miles. I sold the car shortly after the second valve job. Both times, I had rough idle and what felt like a noticeable loss of power. Never had any mechanical issues, but the two issues I mentioned became so apparent I sold the car. I wasnít the only one either, hop on Lexus forums and read other horror stories of carbon buildup....it doesnít take 200k miles and poor maintenance to get carbon buildup. Keep in mind that motor had 12 injectors (6 port style, 6 DI). Letís hope Subaru deploys a better design or their customers will be in for a nasty surprise.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:52 PM   #30
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A lot of it depends on how the car is driven.

Guys on here who say they warm up their car for 5-10 minutes befor driving away, who take really short trips where the car doesn't get up to operating temp, and who in general don't drive the car very hard seem to have the worst issues. Guys who don't excessively warm up the car and take long enough trips where the car gets up to operating temp while taking a few pulls generally have much, much less issues with carbon buildup.

I'm at 66K without any noticeable issues from carbon buildup. I will likely be getting mine done as preventative maintenance here when I can, but I haven't experienced any issues that have come up as of yet. I bought the car in September 2015.

FWIW, Subaru does (or at least did) claim that the unique design of their piston-head mitigates excessive carbon buildup issues on valves, which is why there isn't (or at least wasn't, I don't keep current with dealerships) an official Subaru process for clearing the carbon buildup. From what I've seen the kit most people use for valve cleaning has been from SubieBros and is not OEM.
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Old 09-13-2019, 12:10 AM   #31
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On the topic of DI......

At Volkswagen we will see cars not driven much or very hard or that use poor fuel seem to get buildup on the ports a lot more. We also sell over the counter an additive thatís recommended every 15,000 kms to combat it. When people actually drive how they are supposed to fill it with good quality fuel we can see vehicles that come in with over 60,000 miles that donít even need the carbon clean. We will recommend it when they require an intake replacement or a fuel injector under warranty but generally itís never that bad and there are vehicles from as far back as 2009 that Iím talking about too.
Not every manufacturer has huge issues with carbon buildup on diís, and the tech is getting better too.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:38 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by xX_STI_Xx View Post
hop on Lexus forums and read other horror stories of carbon buildup....
I literally did just that and here's the first few threads that popped up....

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...up-issues.html

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...-build-up.html

https://www.clublexus.com/how-tos/a/...mize-it-367282

Every one of these mentions the IS250 which does NOT have port injection as well as direct injection. They also mention that the IS350(Dual injection) does not have these issues...

Just saying.
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:14 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Turpid Porpoise View Post
I literally did just that and here's the first few threads that popped up....

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...up-issues.html

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...-build-up.html

https://www.clublexus.com/how-tos/a/...mize-it-367282

Every one of these mentions the IS250 which does NOT have port injection as well as direct injection. They also mention that the IS350(Dual injection) does not have these issues...

Just saying.
Well then your not looking hard enough:

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...esolved-4.html

It affects both IS250/IS350....much more apparent on the IS250's.

Also, you keep mentioning dual injection as if Subaru will implement this. Do you truly believe Subaru will put dual injection on the new STI? If not, why even mention dual injection....it won't be relevant on the new STI right? Better comparison, is the IS250. Yeah, so now what? Lol.

Last edited by xX_STI_Xx; 09-13-2019 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:52 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by xX_STI_Xx View Post
Also, you keep mentioning dual injection as if Subaru will implement this. Do you truly believe Subaru will put dual injection on the new STI? If not, why even mentioned dual injection....it won't be relevant on the new STI right? Better comparison, is the IS250. Yeah, so now what? Lol.
Because you keep spreading false information about DI and claiming that dual injection has issues with carbon build-up. Did you actually read any of the dual injection articles that I linked to earlier including the SAE paper?

Port injection washes the valves and prevents carbon build-up.. otherwise you would see the same amount of carbon build-up on a car that only has port injection. I don't think that you understand that DI isn't the cause of carbon build-up.. it's the lack of port injection washing the backs of the intake valves. The BRZ is a perfect example, they don't have issues with carbon build-up with the D-4S dual injection system.

Everyone in your Lexus thread mentions issues with the IS250 (DI only - no port injection). The IS350 remarks never mention carbon build-up or any evidence (pictures or service docs) to support that. They only say that the service manager mentioned throttle body and exhaust valve cleaning.

We all know that carbon build-up occurs on DI only cars. Most FA20s can go at least 60k without cleaning as GlarryHoodDIT is a perfect example. It depends on your fuel quality, oil quality, driving style, etc. It's not going to be a "nasty surprise".

Please go enjoy your Lexus forum and stop spreading false information and arguing with everyone here.
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Old 09-13-2019, 12:23 PM   #35
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I'm guilty of waiting impatiently for the new gen.
2016 wrx stage 2 with 91k miles (original owner)...Ö.im definitely overdue for a trade-in and upgrade.
Torn between a 19/20 STI, waiting LONGER for the new generation STI, building my wrx, or just trade in for a BMW M2 or M3.

The desire for a Focus RS came and went (thanks to the head gasket issues and discontinuation) as well as an S4 or RS3 (automatic )
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Old 09-13-2019, 01:28 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
Please go enjoy your Lexus forum and stop spreading false information and arguing with everyone here.
I don't own a Lexus anymore, or did you not comprehend that yet again.

I don't spread false information...in fact, looking at your posts, you seem to be the one who is actively trying to falsify the true nature of DI....making folks believe it is all good and nothing else.

I'm going to be the bigger person here and end this stupid argument with you, it's obvious your dead set on DI being the next best thing next to sliced bread for the next gen STI.
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Old 09-13-2019, 01:31 PM   #37
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When you refuse to answer the relevant questions being asked to yourself you're not being the better person and walking away, you're just proving to everybody that you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Old 09-13-2019, 01:59 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by xX_STI_Xx View Post
Well then your not looking hard enough:

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...esolved-4.html

It affects both IS250/IS350....much more apparent on the IS250's.

Also, you keep mentioning dual injection as if Subaru will implement this. Do you truly believe Subaru will put dual injection on the new STI? If not, why even mention dual injection....it won't be relevant on the new STI right? Better comparison, is the IS250. Yeah, so now what? Lol.
Check your reading comprehension bud, that was my first post.

You may also want to google logical fallacies and see how many of them you have used to defend your unfounded claims.

Last edited by Turpid Porpoise; 09-13-2019 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:50 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by xX_STI_Xx View Post
I don't spread false information...in fact, looking at your posts, you seem to be the one who is actively trying to falsify the true nature of DI....making folks believe it is all good and nothing else.
Since this turned into a DI thread, I'll post actual SAE material since apparently I've tried to "falsify the true nature of DI" despite providing factual information and real science to support my claims..


Fig. 1: Port Fuel Injection (PFI)


Fig 2: Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI)

Port fuel injection (PFI) helps wash intake valve inlets as fuel and its added detergent come in direct contact with the valves (Fig. 1). GDI sprays gasoline directly into the combustion chamber with no intake valve inlet washing (Fig. 2). SAE Paper 1999-01-1498 added that, “IVD (intake valve deposits) are unexpectedly higher in the GDI engines than the PFI as no (or very little) fuel expected to contact the valves in GDI engines.”

GDI sprays gasoline directly into the combustion chamber under much higher pressure (2,000 psi or more) than PFI’s intake manifold spray (40-60 psi). The increased fuel pressure can result in some contaminants blowing past low-tension piston rings into the oil sump. Additionally, these byproducts are exposed to the valve during valve opening. The positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) passes oil-laden contaminants into the intake air stream where, according to SAE Paper 2002-01-2660, oily PCV crankcase vapors and droplets combine with exhaust gas re-circulation carbon particles and heat to layer over sticky intake valve coatings and bake into deposits. This accelerates the rate of carbon build-up on the intake valve inlets without port fuel injection to rinse/clean the deposits. GDI deposits often require preventive maintenance to prevent sputter, misfire, hesitation and loss of volumetric efficiency and power.

Other recent SAE papers on GDI & dual injection (DI & PFI)
https://www.sae.org/publications/tec.../2016-01-2252/
https://www.sae.org/publications/tec.../2018-01-1735/
https://www.sae.org/publications/tec.../2019-01-0999/

Quote:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...ect-injection/

Each strategy has pluses and minuses. PI is handy for naturally aspirated engines because cooling the incoming air increases its density and power-producing potential. It’s significantly easier to locate injectors in the intake ports, well away from the valves and spark plugs. This upstream location provides ample time for full vaporization to occur. One downside is that fuel droplets sometimes are deposited on the intake port walls, upsetting the intended fuel-air ratio.

With DI, the chance of detonation—premature ignition of the fuel and air mixture—is diminished because the phase-change cooling effect takes place during the compression stroke just before ignition. Lowering the combustion chamber’s surface temperatures enables a higher compression ratio and improved efficiency whether the engine is naturally aspirated or boosted. Ford raised peak torque by 30 lb-ft in its new 3.5-liter V-6 by combining the new dual-injection strategy with higher boost pressure.

There are downsides to DI. A DI system is more expensive because the pressure required to squirt fuel into the combustion chamber is 50 to 100 times higher than with PI, and the higher-pressure pump imposes parasitic losses. Direct injectors tend to be noisy. Carbon deposits—both on the backsides of the intake valves and on tailpipes—are service issues for some DI users. Because there’s less time for vaporization to occur, some fuel escapes the combustion chamber and the catalytic converter as particulate matter or soot. These carbon particles are similar to but smaller in size than those spit out by diesel engines.

The Combination

The ultimate strategy is combining both PI and DI benefits, using each to diminish the other’s negatives. Toyota, for example, fires both injectors during low to medium load and rpm conditions—in other words, during normal driving. This raises the density of the incoming charge without boosting and flushes carbon deposits off the intake valves. During high load and rpm circumstances, when maximum combustion chamber cooling is needed because detonation is more likely, DI handles all the fuel delivery.

Each maker uses a different strategy regarding when to use port, direct, or both injectors. One of Toyota’s torque versus rpm versus injector use maps is shown here. Peter Dowding, Ford’s chief engineer of powertrain gasoline systems, revealed a different strategy. Ford uses PI alone at idle and at low rpm for smooth, quiet, and efficient engine operation. As rpm and load increase, fuel delivery becomes a programmed blend of PI and DI. In contrast to Toyota’s methodology, Ford’s PI is always operating, responsible for at least 5 to 10 percent of the fuel delivery.

Designing and developing modern engines is a juggling act that attempts to balance power, emissions, mileage, drivability, and other concerns. The dual-fuel strategy gives engineers an additional key to turn as they strive to unlock more energy from each drop of gas. As lessons are learned and component costs fall, expect more makers to adopt this approach to fanning their fires.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:50 PM   #40
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I don't own a Lexus anymore, or did you not comprehend that yet again.

I'm going to be the bigger person here and end this stupid argument with you
I'm well aware that you don't own a lexus anymore.. yet you continue to provide irrelevant links to lexus forums.. We will gladly have an educated conversation with you if you can provide any evidence to support your seemingly unfounded claims.
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Old 09-13-2019, 03:15 PM   #41
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The question is not whether DI is the be all end all way of the futures......

The question is, will Subaru be likely to use it on the next gens. And the answer is that likely that they will.

DI is not perfect. I guess that's understood. But *I think* Subaru is more than willing to play the numbers game over the potential downfalls of DI.

So far, there's been VERY few (if any) serious widespread complaints with the FA and problems related to DI in the WRX. Sure, tuners may find it "difficult to tune", people may complain they will lose x hp over certain miles due to deposits.... people may complain the possibility exists they will have to do a valve cleaning at some point......

But will that deter Subaru? will it affect sales? who knows. Likely not. On the other hand... DI will give them: improved fuel economy, being able to use an existing engine FA24 or FA20+ while being able to increase the output in the STI, etc. certainly will.

Will they go DIT? Nobody knows yet. So this is all... discussion.
For all we know Subaru could well troll the universe and just slap equal length headers on the EJ and tune it to 320
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Old 09-13-2019, 05:25 PM   #42
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dealers are called stealerships for a reason...they create problems so you can go back to them for service. they dont really make money off cars sold.

on another note...the new gen STI probably will come with some form of DIT...lets hope Subaru builds a good engine
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Old 09-13-2019, 05:53 PM   #43
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It all depends on the reasoning for buying a new car. Don't go into debt just to have the newest thing. I see too many people buy them and trade them in upside down on the loan. Personally, version 2-5 STi's will be available for import in the coming years, and I plan to continue importing instead of buying a new STi, unless Subaru actually increases the power and puts it on a diet.
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:57 PM   #44
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I'll probably stick with my blobeye unless the new sti is unbelievably better than the current gen. Hopefully they can shed some weight as that's always beneficial.
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Old 09-14-2019, 11:27 PM   #45
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I'll probably stick with my blobeye unless the new sti is unbelievably better than the current gen. Hopefully they can shed some weight as that's always beneficial.
Increasing safety regulations and tech crap will negate weight savings. Shaving weight costs money. Lightweight materials cost more money.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:56 PM   #46
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I must be losing my mind, and falsifying information right?....because a reputable shop (TheShopCT) is performing this service on Subbie's with FA motors that have DI....lol.



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Old 09-20-2019, 06:17 PM   #47
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Are you purposefully trying to come off as a moron or does it just come naturally?
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Old 09-20-2019, 06:17 PM   #48
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The post doesn't even state what type of engine it is in the picture..

Where did anyone in this thread say that the WRX's FA20DIT wasn't susceptible to carbon build-up? Everyone has agreed on that for years and acknowledges that it requires maintenance..

How many miles were on that car? What type of engine was it? Did the carbon build-up make it "unreliable"?

Notice the tops of the valve heads themselves are actually pretty clean. Here are some examples of severe carbon build-up that will impact idle, fuel economy, etc.





So yeah.. the valves that "TheShopCT" posted actually aren't that bad.
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Old 09-20-2019, 11:28 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
Are you purposefully trying to come off as a moron or does it just come naturally?
Whatís the matter, canít handle the truth?
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Old 09-20-2019, 11:30 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post


The post doesn't even state what type of engine it is in the picture..

Where did anyone in this thread say that the WRX's FA20DIT wasn't susceptible to carbon build-up? Everyone has agreed on that for years and acknowledges that it requires maintenance..

How many miles were on that car? What type of engine was it? Did the carbon build-up make it "unreliable"?

Notice the tops of the valve heads themselves are actually pretty clean. Here are some examples of severe carbon build-up that will impact idle, fuel economy, etc.





So yeah.. the valves that "TheShopCT" posted actually aren't that bad.
If the new STI will be susceptible to gunk like this on the valves at any point in itís life....Subaru can keep it.
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