Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday October 21, 2019
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-01-2015, 01:59 PM   #51
LexusLSGuy
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 431657
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NJ
Vehicle:
2016 WRX Limited MT
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

This is my first WOT log. Thanks in advance for any insight.

I'm in the process of getting an e-tune from BrenTuning and I am interested in learning about the process if anyone can share their expertise.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...920345&vpid=A1
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
LexusLSGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 12-01-2015, 05:47 PM   #52
joeleodee
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 193020
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default

Vehicle and mods?
joeleodee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 06:05 PM   #53
LexusLSGuy
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 431657
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NJ
Vehicle:
2016 WRX Limited MT
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

Sorry, should of mentioned that.

Here is my 2nd revision with my Bren e-tune. Feedback and Fine knock at 0 the hole time.

2016 6 speed WRX with no mods

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
LexusLSGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 07:12 PM   #54
joeleodee
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 193020
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default

Looks pretty good to me. Brentuning is pretty legit so I don't know that anyone here can offer anything more than what they are telling you. Stage 1 tune is pretty simple and straightforward. Boost spikes up there pretty good, but I think it'll be a little quicker to spool when it's finished. I don't know that there's much to do about the taper, however. No knock observed and all other numbers seem to be in line.

Did they request that you log all those parameters? And what's with your fuel pressure? That seems a bit extensive.

Last edited by joeleodee; 12-01-2015 at 07:28 PM.
joeleodee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 07:39 PM   #55
joeleodee
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 193020
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default

Here's your dyno graph right now. Anybody know what a 2016 WRX puts down stock?

joeleodee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2015, 11:45 AM   #56
LexusLSGuy
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 431657
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NJ
Vehicle:
2016 WRX Limited MT
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

It is a ton of parameters... lol. I just left the Cobb defaults. That virtual dyno is pretty cool.

Here is a stock dyno from Road and Track. If it's accurate, 238 over 223 hp and 271 over 243 tq is nice pickup for just stage 1 and no other mods. That's 15 hp and 28 tq!

After my second revision they said they are very happy with the results. I asked them to error a little toward being conservative vs aggressive. The car feels great.

Edit: Fuel pressure is not touched by the tuner. This is normal for DIT engines. Need to do one more 4th gear log and should be good to go.




Last edited by LexusLSGuy; 12-02-2015 at 01:42 PM.
LexusLSGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2015, 03:05 PM   #57
joeleodee
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 193020
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexusLSGuy View Post
It is a ton of parameters... lol. I just left the Cobb defaults. That virtual dyno is pretty cool.

Here is a stock dyno from Road and Track. If it's accurate, 238 over 223 hp and 271 over 243 tq is nice pickup for just stage 1 and no other mods. That's 15 hp and 28 tq!

After my second revision they said they are very happy with the results. I asked them to error a little toward being conservative vs aggressive. The car feels great.

Edit: Fuel pressure is not touched by the tuner. This is normal for DIT engines. Need to do one more 4th gear log and should be good to go.




That's pretty typical of a stage 1 tune. More than just the slight bump in power, the tuner is really able to smooth some things out and make it an all around better driving vehicle.

As for fuel pressure, I meant that the logs stated that your fuel pressure was maxing out in the 2100 psi range. Pretty sure it's not that.
joeleodee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2015, 03:12 PM   #58
joeleodee
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 193020
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default

And yes, Virtual Dyno is very cool. BTW, were these logs taken in similar conditions on a flat road? If not, the graph of the first revision showed considerable more power at 260whp/295wtq. Now they may have dialed back the timing because I noticed a little knock. Let me know if you want me to post that.
joeleodee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2015, 03:24 PM   #59
LexusLSGuy
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 431657
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NJ
Vehicle:
2016 WRX Limited MT
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

Unfortunately the conditions were not the same. The 1st was taken when it was cooler and not raining on a pretty flat road. The second was taken with a slight incline and it was coming down pretty steady. This may be a mistake on my part. I also figured he pulled timing and another member mentioned I was over boosting in the first log.

260 / 295 seems unrealistic with just a tune. They mentioned that 15 whp is about the average gain on a 93 octane tune. The car definitely feels smooth and strong throughout. Even idle is more smooth vs stock.

Quote:
Fuel Apply Rate

The fuel apply rate is tuned via the pressure in the common fuel rail that the fuel injectors are connected to, the number of times the injector is opened to allow fuel to pass through it (during the intake cycle), and the duration of those openings. DI fuel systems are substantial in their design because they usually generate and hold fuel pressurized at a whopping 2,200 psi or more (the DI fuel rail tube often has about a 1/8-inch wall thickness to handle these extreme pressures) rather than the 40 to 60 psi common in port injection. These extremely high pressures allow the injector to flow enough fuel to achieve stoichiometric combustion (the desired 14:1 ratio of fuel and air) in a little less than half the number of degrees of crank rotation as compared with a port fuel injection engine.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...jection-guide/

Last edited by LexusLSGuy; 12-02-2015 at 03:44 PM.
LexusLSGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2015, 04:28 PM   #60
LexusLSGuy
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 431657
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NJ
Vehicle:
2016 WRX Limited MT
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

Ugh. Yeah, I messed up by not having the same conditions for the pulls. Going to redo them under the same conditions and resend to the tuner.
LexusLSGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2015, 05:53 PM   #61
joeleodee
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 193020
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default

Good to know. Learn something every day. Had no idea direct injection ran that kind of pressure.
joeleodee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2015, 09:59 AM   #62
LexusLSGuy
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 431657
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NJ
Vehicle:
2016 WRX Limited MT
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

Upon further research it seems 260/295 is not that unrealistic on a 93 octane tune. I think I will ask the tuner to not back it off as much but still remain safe. Part is the issue may be winter fuel blends that are known not to be that great.
LexusLSGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 01:37 PM   #63
86Dreams
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 385256
Join Date: Mar 2014
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Harriman NY
Vehicle:
V7 S204
'19 Giulia Q4

Default

Ill bite, im curious and I like to look at data from logs as well so this is good place to hang out. But, of course, I finally get a good, clear, flat stretch of road and what do I do? Have throttle position turned off-fml. I had tps delta on tho so I was atleast able to infer where the log was WOT and not.

-Vehicle year, make, and model
2002 subaru impreza wrx

-Manual or Automatic transmission.
manual

-Power upgrades
Cobb stg2+ebcs 93 HWG v 310 ots tune
K&N panel filter.
Silicone post maf, Turbo inlet, IC elbow, TB hoses
STI TMIC Unkown year/version+ Correct scoop and splitter
cobb ebcs
GS coated Uppipe
GS wraped Downpipe-catted
HKS HP catback
Other mods that make a difference:
Turbo heat wrap
Turbo heat shield(cobb)
Lightweight Crank Pulley
Carbon Fiber Drive Shaft
Hard motor Transmission and rear diff mounts

-Gear used to capture datalog
3

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

I cut out any other data besides what you were asking for.
86Dreams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 02:17 PM   #64
LexusLSGuy
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 431657
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NJ
Vehicle:
2016 WRX Limited MT
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

Need to see the knock sensors. Fine and feedback. Also TD Boost error, DAM, and AF sensor 1 ratio is good.
LexusLSGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 02:23 PM   #65
LexusLSGuy
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 431657
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NJ
Vehicle:
2016 WRX Limited MT
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

By the way, after speaking with a few shops the virtual dyno's are not accurate at all.
LexusLSGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 02:36 PM   #66
ShinjiML
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 257231
Join Date: Sep 2010
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Vehicle:
2011 STI ShinjiTuned
DGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexusLSGuy View Post
By the way, after speaking with a few shops the virtual dyno's are not accurate at all.
They're pretty accurate if the road is flat and smooth. We've had members who tested this. The problem is logs are often done on roads that are not ideal.
ShinjiML is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 03:52 PM   #67
86Dreams
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 385256
Join Date: Mar 2014
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Harriman NY
Vehicle:
V7 S204
'19 Giulia Q4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinjiML View Post
They're pretty accurate if the road is flat and smooth. We've had members who tested this. The problem is logs are often done on roads that are not ideal.
This, not to mention traffic and law enforcement. At the end of that pull you might say I was going a little over the speed limit.

The other logged parameters were not requested in post #1. FKL and FBK were 0 throughout the pull and DAM was 16/16. Those are only necessary if youre trying to tune it. Bigger injectors definitely wouldnt hurt tho
86Dreams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 04:48 PM   #68
joeleodee
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 193020
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexusLSGuy View Post
By the way, after speaking with a few shops the virtual dyno's are not accurate at all.
And I would contest with those shops that they're dead wrong. First and foremost, ALL dynos read different from other types of dynos. Numbers are relative. I've done extensive testing with different setups that I've compared with their chassis dyno numbers. Comparing dynojets to the VD dynojet setting, their respective VD graphs are within 5% at the very most with 1-2% more likely.I know that the only consistent test is 1/4 mile mph, but even that can be skewed by weather, atmospheric pressure, etc. All that to say the VD is the tuning tool I use since I self tune and don't have access to an AWD dyno. The VD has been very consistent as long as I'm consistent. During tuning sessions, I use the same stretch of road on the same day, same weather, and the vehicle weight, tire size, drag coefficient, gearing, etc. are all accounted for. The VD is only as accurate as the information inputted and for my proposes, there's no better method.

Now, one of the things I've been observing with those who have posted logs is the MAF g/s number. In all instances, as long as the MAF scaling is calibrated properly, the peak whp number is very close to the peak g/s number. I even went back to my old logs to study this. ONLY when the maf scaling was properly calibrated did I observe this. For instance, when the VD numbers were in the 300-320 range, my g/s numbers were in the 230-250 range. Under closer inspection, AFRs were running much leaner than their targets suggesting incorrect maf scaling. To remedy this, you add fuel by increasing the maf g/s figure for a given voltage. In closed loop, for a specific voltage, the ecu determines how much fuel to inject based on how much air is moving. If that voltage is reading too low of a number, not enough fuel will be given creating lean AFRs. This means, properly scaled, I would have had to add airflow value across the higher voltage ranges to accomadate and when I did, guess what? Those numbers lined up again. That being said, in a properly scaled system, MAF g/s and MAF voltage increases are good indicators of power increases. Probably better than the VD if the roads have inconsistent grading where you are doing pulls.
joeleodee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 04:53 PM   #69
joeleodee
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 193020
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexusLSGuy View Post
Need to see the knock sensors. Fine and feedback. Also TD Boost error, DAM, and AF sensor 1 ratio is good.
Like mentioned earlier, those are good parameters to observe in real time when tuning. If I were tuning your vehicle, yes, I would want those parameters logged. Bear in mind, however, AF Sensor 1 is not accurate at WOT since it cannot accurately read AFR figures below 11 or something like that. For a stage 1 tune with no CAI, running a WB02 sensor is not yet necessary. Going further, keep that on your list of things you should consider.
joeleodee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 04:57 PM   #70
86Dreams
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 385256
Join Date: Mar 2014
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Harriman NY
Vehicle:
V7 S204
'19 Giulia Q4

Default

Here are all the parameters I logged during that pull. I watch knock CONSTANTLY and have written a few programs to munge through the data in the logs and return statistical information about knock events and engine operating states. I also have boost egt and afr gauges installed.

Time (sec) AF Correction 1 (%) AF Learning 1 (%) AF Sens 1 Ratio (AFR) Boost (PSI) Calculated Load (g/rev) Dyn. Adv. Mult (DAM) Feedback Knock () Fine Knock Learn () Gear Position (Gear) Ignition Timing () Inj. Duty Cycle (%) MAF (g/s) MAF Volt. (V) RPM (RPM) TPS Delta (%) Tip-in Enrich. (ms) Vehicle Speed (mph) Wastegate Duty (%) AP Info:[AP3-SUB-001 v1.7.2.0-11265][USDM 2002/2003 Impreza WRX][Reflash: Stage2+EBCS 91 v310 HWG-M4.ptm - Realtime: Stage2+EBCS 93 v310 HWG.ptm]

If i blow up my car Ill atleast know why
86Dreams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 05:14 PM   #71
joeleodee
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 193020
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
Here are all the parameters I logged during that pull. I watch knock CONSTANTLY and have written a few programs to munge through the data in the logs and return statistical information about knock events and engine operating states. I also have boost egt and afr gauges installed.

Time (sec) AF Correction 1 (%) AF Learning 1 (%) AF Sens 1 Ratio (AFR) Boost (PSI) Calculated Load (g/rev) Dyn. Adv. Mult (DAM) Feedback Knock () Fine Knock Learn () Gear Position (Gear) Ignition Timing () Inj. Duty Cycle (%) MAF (g/s) MAF Volt. (V) RPM (RPM) TPS Delta (%) Tip-in Enrich. (ms) Vehicle Speed (mph) Wastegate Duty (%) AP Info:[AP3-SUB-001 v1.7.2.0-11265][USDM 2002/2003 Impreza WRX][Reflash: Stage2+EBCS 91 v310 HWG-M4.ptm - Realtime: Stage2+EBCS 93 v310 HWG.ptm]


If i blow up my car Ill atleast know why

I like your style. I would be interested in learning more about those programs you mentioned.

I looked at the datalog you posted and now I think I understand why I saw some things amiss. The same RPM was repeated at consecutive time stamps several times throughout the log. Coupled with the previous information, I'd venture to guess that the sampling rate of your logger was not sufficient enough to keep up with all those parameters.
joeleodee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 07:12 PM   #72
86Dreams
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 385256
Join Date: Mar 2014
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Harriman NY
Vehicle:
V7 S204
'19 Giulia Q4

Default

Lol thanks. If you want to know some stats post up a long and what you want to know.
86Dreams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 07:40 PM   #73
joeleodee
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 193020
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default

For your program, what parameters do you want logged?
joeleodee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 08:05 PM   #74
86Dreams
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 385256
Join Date: Mar 2014
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Harriman NY
Vehicle:
V7 S204
'19 Giulia Q4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeleodee View Post
For your program, what parameters do you want logged?
Depends on what you want to know.
86Dreams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2015, 04:07 PM   #75
krisk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 333048
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
2013 WRX
VF52+E85+TP Road Tune

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeleodee View Post
as long as the MAF scaling is calibrated properly, the peak whp number is very close to the peak g/s
Not really...think of it is like this...
The MAF just reads the speed of the air moving past the sensor.
But the size of the intake tube and the speed of the air is the actual 'volume' of air moving through the engine.

Further the air doesn't flow across the sensor the same for different intakes. This is why you need to 'tune' for a CAI. Because the air flowing past the MAF is different at different loads for different intakes.

The MAF volts can be the same - but the CAI is actually moving more air compared to the stock intake. Which causes the AFR to go lean and causes KNOCK.

Here is a real world example
My stock 2013 WRX WOT log had a max MAF 254 g/s though my E85 tune only hit a max of 288 g/s. The E85 tune had full bolt ons, EBCS, CAI, DP, Equal length headers, FMIC, etc..

Hope this helps
krisk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2019 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.