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Old 04-24-2014, 09:15 AM   #1
Motion Machine
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Default Line boring Subaru's, with pics

With the recent discussion about King possibly making oversize od main bearings, the ability to save cases would be a big plus for lots of builds. I have been line boring them for several years now and feel that I have perfected the best method to do this. I've admittedly harped on this topic before, but I feel strongly that line honing a Subaru is a crap shoot at best. You get taper, out of round, varying tunnel diameters. Don't get me wrong, I have a line hone also, it's a great tool but has it's limits. Suby's need to line bored and the shape of the block makes them difficult to bore on a traditional line boring machine. I've done them on mine but the set-up is awkward and most shops would probably not attempt it. I now do them on my CNC and it bores an absolutely straight round hole. Step #1 is measuring the cases to determine the amount that needs to be machined off the halves. In this case, pic 1 shows that #2 is worn .005", as shown on the gage. This means that .005" needs to be taken off both cases, as my research has shown that the measured wear is normally all on one side. Pic 2 shows the block being shaved the .005", after it has been indicated to less than .0005". Pic 3 shows the optical tool setting fixture that is used to adjust the boring tool to the correct diameter. It is basically a laser that measures how far from center the tip of the cutting tool is, thereby determining what size hole it will bore. Pic 4 shows the set-up on the CNC with the tool about to start a cut. Again, I indicate the top and bottom main to within .0005". I charge $350 for this process, the price would be less if King starts to make oversize bearings as that would eliminate the need to cut the halves. So vote early and vote often for that. I'll post a video on the next post I made with an earlier slightly different set-up, but it shows how the program works.
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File Type: jpg IMG_1655 (800x600).jpg (189.6 KB, 541 views)
File Type: jpg Suby case half milling (Small).JPG (52.1 KB, 534 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1727 (600x800).jpg (188.5 KB, 469 views)
File Type: jpg Suby line bore set-up (Small).JPG (57.1 KB, 514 views)
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Old 04-24-2014, 09:19 AM   #2
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Old 04-24-2014, 11:18 AM   #3
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How much are you cutting off the halves? You don't mention this but you're pushing the piston up further into the bore. So TDC is now moving up closer to the cylinder head. :/
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Old 04-24-2014, 11:56 AM   #4
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How much are you cutting off the halves? You don't mention this but you're pushing the piston up further into the bore. So TDC is now moving up closer to the cylinder head. :/
Yes it does bring the piston closer to the deck by the amount that gets removed from the parting surface. This block for instance had .006" cut off each side. So if the block was at zero deck before, then .006" needs to be milled off the domes. If it's a large amount, I've taken as much as .012" off each side, then a thicker gasket might be easier.
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:47 PM   #5
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Subscribed to both this thread and your youtube acct. Next time you do a sleeve installation could you put that on youtube? I think people should see what entails sleeving a Subaru block before they jump to having their block sleeved, especially with the onset of the block insert success
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:19 PM   #6
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I always love when people with real actual knowledge chime in!

Man i bet you wish you had a 5 axis to do those on. Can do everything in one shot with the cases all bolted and torqued together. Bore cylinders then bore the mains all in one setup! I guess you could make a 4th axis fixture to do them all at once so everything is true to eachother tho .....

Got a new 5 axis here at work a while ago. Hopefully in the future i'll be able to make some suby parts on it. I see billet blocks in my future....why...cause we can!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POzRrMISYgE
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:31 PM   #7
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I always love when people with real actual knowledge chime in!

Man i bet you wish you had a 5 axis to do those on. Can do everything in one shot with the cases all bolted and torqued together. Bore cylinders then bore the mains all in one setup! I guess you could make a 4th axis fixture to do them all at once so everything is true to eachother tho .....

Got a new 5 axis here at work a while ago. Hopefully in the future i'll be able to make some suby parts on it. I see billet blocks in my future....why...cause we can!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POzRrMISYgE
Actually it is a 4 axis machine, you just can't see the Nikken rotary on the right side. I do all my sleeving and decking with the cases torqued together on a 2" bar in the mains on the rotary, a must for Suby's IMO. I do all my blocks this way. Here's a video of the probe set-up, then there's a pause while I press some buttons, then it probes and records the bore locations and the deck heights. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dr6LQZr1AI
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:49 PM   #8
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Subscribed to both this thread and your youtube acct. Next time you do a sleeve installation could you put that on youtube? I think people should see what entails sleeving a Subaru block before they jump to having their block sleeved, especially with the onset of the block insert success
That would be a pretty long video I'm afraid, lots of steps and I'm no good with video editing, as you probably have already guessed by my lousy video quality. One of my videos shows the final boring pass on a block that is getting dry sleeves.
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Old 04-24-2014, 05:45 PM   #9
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That would be a pretty long video I'm afraid, lots of steps and I'm no good with video editing, as you probably have already guessed by my lousy video quality. One of my videos shows the final boring pass on a block that is getting dry sleeves.
I could edit it for you! Lol
It was worth a shot :-/
I dont mind long vids... I have watched hour long ones before lol
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Old 04-24-2014, 06:41 PM   #10
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Actually it is a 4 axis machine, you just can't see the Nikken rotary on the right side. I do all my sleeving and decking with the cases torqued together on a 2" bar in the mains on the rotary, a must for Suby's IMO. I do all my blocks this way. Here's a video of the probe set-up, then there's a pause while I press some buttons, then it probes and records the bore locations and the deck heights. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dr6LQZr1AI
SPIFFY! Gotta love probes....just gotta make sure that damn tip is running true!

Thinking if you rotated the other way you can get the mains and bores in one setup on the 4th. Not sure if it would be worth the hassle plus you'd probably have to jack up the rotary table even more and be relying on the oil pan surface to be parallel to the mains so more trouble than its worth! sorry for the brain diarrhea. Looks like you got it all pretty dialed already tho!

Keep up the good work!
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Old 04-24-2014, 07:50 PM   #11
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Thanks for this...
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Old 04-24-2014, 09:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion Machine View Post
Yes it does bring the piston closer to the deck by the amount that gets removed from the parting surface. This block for instance had .006" cut off each side. So if the block was at zero deck before, then .006" needs to be milled off the domes. If it's a large amount, I've taken as much as .012" off each side, then a thicker gasket might be easier.

Ahh interesting. Is that safe to have the pistons raised above deck hight? What about milling the chambers? Would deff tighten the quench pad up some. Just thinking outside of the box (ways to avoid thicker head gaskets) they're scary esp when making power.

You'll also need adjustable cam gears to get valve timing into spec. Sounds like fun. Oh then tuning sounds like the most fun
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Old 04-24-2014, 09:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebrewhammer8 View Post
I always love when people with real actual knowledge chime in! Man i bet you wish you had a 5 axis to do those on. Can do everything in one shot with the cases all bolted and torqued together. Bore cylinders then bore the mains all in one setup! I guess you could make a 4th axis fixture to do them all at once so everything is true to eachother tho ..... Got a new 5 axis here at work a while ago. Hopefully in the future i'll be able to make some suby parts on it. I see billet blocks in my future....why...cause we can! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POzRrMISYgE

That's sounds like fun!!
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Old 04-24-2014, 09:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebrewhammer8 View Post
SPIFFY! Gotta love probes....just gotta make sure that damn tip is running true! Thinking if you rotated the other way you can get the mains and bores in one setup on the 4th. Not sure if it would be worth the hassle plus you'd probably have to jack up the rotary table even more and be relying on the oil pan surface to be parallel to the mains so more trouble than its worth! sorry for the brain diarrhea. Looks like you got it all pretty dialed already tho! Keep up the good work!

I wish I had money for a machine, I'd have to learn this stuff for myself sounds like a good time
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Old 04-25-2014, 01:12 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Hebrewhammer8 View Post
SPIFFY! Gotta love probes....just gotta make sure that damn tip is running true!

Thinking if you rotated the other way you can get the mains and bores in one setup on the 4th. Not sure if it would be worth the hassle plus you'd probably have to jack up the rotary table even more and be relying on the oil pan surface to be parallel to the mains so more trouble than its worth! sorry for the brain diarrhea. Looks like you got it all pretty dialed already tho!

Keep up the good work!
The original datum hole is on the pan side and the probe needs access to it so I can blueprint the bore locations when I sleeve. This is why blocks that are machined in 2 halves just clamped on the table cannot be blueprinted because you can't even see the datum hole, much less get a probe into it. I remove/relocate the tailstock all the time but the rotary is staying put. All my programs know where to find the datums for different blocks, if I move the rotary my world will implode!
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Old 04-27-2014, 01:19 AM   #16
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All my programs know where to find the datums for different blocks, if I move the rotary my world will implode!
HA! I know the feeling!
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Old 04-27-2014, 08:36 AM   #17
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I briefly spoke with you about some machine work and have heard other say the mains are little tight on new blocks.

Do you ever hone them at all to adjust for clearances? I bought bearings already and have 2 sets of std size ones and a set of .001 extra clearance ones to mix and match shells as that seems to be the way most people get their ideal clearances.
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Old 04-27-2014, 01:05 PM   #18
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I briefly spoke with you about some machine work and have heard other say the mains are little tight on new blocks.

Do you ever hone them at all to adjust for clearances? I bought bearings already and have 2 sets of std size ones and a set of .001 extra clearance ones to mix and match shells as that seems to be the way most people get their ideal clearances.
Yes, they do seem to be closer to the middle or bottom of the tolerance on the new blocks I see. Taking a small amount out with the line hone is fine, I do it to correct the line bore on new blocks with ARP case bolts. But you don't want to go too far out of the spec as bearing crush would be affected.
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Old 04-28-2014, 12:43 AM   #19
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^^ forgive my newness to the machining world but would you still do this with the softer aluminum oem bearings? Or because of the nature of the material in the oem sti bearings (say on a dd build) would clearances on the tighter side be a good thing?
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Old 04-28-2014, 08:54 AM   #20
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Tight clearance on a stock rebuild is fine. Many many years ago I did a lot of work for the local Subaru dealer. I'm talking about early EA 1.4 and 1.6 motors. I would grind the crank on the high side to tighten up the clearances overall, but the center journal I would grind so that there was .0000" to .0005" clearance. That is what Subaru wanted, zero clearance. We never went to zero, kept it to .0005" and it got rid of the noise and low oil pressure on a rebuild. The bearing material has nothing to do with making sure the line bore is straight. Most shops want between .0015" and .002" main clearance and line honing or line boring on the top side of the spec give you straight and equally sized bores and give you that little extra clearance without using +.001" bearings. But don't forget, the size of the mainline is only 1 of 3 things that determine your final clearance. Bearing thickness and journal diameter are the other 2. Here's a pic of a block I just line bored.
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Old 04-28-2014, 11:42 AM   #21
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^^ spoke to dale at Motion Machine this morning. WOW. Bigtime knowledge coming out of this guy, and very easy to talk to.
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Old 04-28-2014, 12:51 PM   #22
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How much does line boring the block narrow the oiling area for the bearings. And can you bring that back into spec? I'm guessing the back end of a micro meter can give this spec?
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Old 04-28-2014, 02:51 PM   #23
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How much does line boring the block narrow the oiling area for the bearings. And can you bring that back into spec? I'm guessing the back end of a micro meter can give this spec?
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Do you mean what affect does milling the cases have on the oil groove depth maybe? I suppose the overall surface area of the groove is affected by the amount that is cut off the block but it is such a small amount it's negligible. A better question is why Subaru offsets that groove depth toward the pan side of the motor. It is not the same depth all the way around the bearing. I noticed this when I first measured the blocks for steel inserts in the center 3 mains, something I will have to duplicate in the design I guess.
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Old 12-02-2015, 07:38 PM   #24
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Do you still offer line boring?

I have an EJ22T I am trying to assemble with ARP case bolts.
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Old 12-02-2015, 09:30 PM   #25
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yes I do, return pm sent
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