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Old 02-05-2019, 06:34 PM   #126
Snow_Shovel
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Not sure if this is what you were looking for. But like i said, its a two piece rail. Height off of the manifold Id assume be the same given standard top feed sizes. Length is about 6 without AN fittings. Width is 3/4.
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Old 02-07-2019, 02:24 PM   #127
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Default Looking for Cosworth-like fuel rails to modify!

Snow_Shovel,
I appreciate what you have done, but just realized that your fuel rail is specifically for the stock NA intake. Mine is modified to accept any top mount fuel rail for an EJ.

In reaching my goal of no manifold spacer, I only have the front end of the fuel rail fitting's interference with the banjo for the AVCS solenoid valve to deal with. I don't think any stock rail will clear it. They won't because the fuel manifold part is too low. It doesn't have to be but all seem to try and stay compact.
My solution is to move the fuel fitting from the front end of the rail to the top. Then I shorten the end to clear the banjo and banjo bolt.
What I need is a fuel rail that is smaller in width than Radium's and cheaper than Cosworth's. They must be good quality, one piece, machined aluminum rails!
Something like this fitting gets welded to the top, facing rearward.



This is of interest to me and should be to others who would like to take advantage of the benefits of reversing the intake and not having the hood clearance issues that spacers cause.
As I have said, and somewhat duplicated on the Reversed Intake Manifold/TB Thread, this is how I am running rails currently while using 13mm spacers. Dampers are on top.
The other image shows how I changed out the hex-head #6 bolt to a flathead bolt for clearance. I was able to force the connector on. It was also taken before I added the Radium dampers.
You can see how I will run into interference issues with the oil banjo and the solenoid connector if it were lowered more. This is why I will clock the connector so it will be lower and removing and and relocating the retaining point for the solenoid.

Last edited by Scargod; 02-08-2019 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Added pics, link and info
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Old 02-07-2019, 03:14 PM   #128
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Default using an NA intake manifold.. what rails to use?

What if something like these would fit your bill. Seeing as they feed and return from the same side. Then you may not have the fitment issues of that port.

https://www.maperformance.com/produc...BoCyisQAvD_BwE

Id love to not have to run a spacer and be able to forward face my manifold. Im running a remote mounted turbo in order to eliminate some charge piping. It would be rad to eliminate even more.
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Old 02-07-2019, 06:12 PM   #129
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I've had Boomba's on my engine, earlier on, when I ran a stock STi manifold.
They will not work for at least one reason. They are identical parts so, while the right, turbo side pointing away from the turbo is great, because the fuel lines are routed away from the turbo, the fittings end up being over the banjo and banjo bolt on the right side. I might could remove material on the right side and weld that up, but relocating the fitting on the other end is problematic because of having to add a fitting to an area where there is little material. Not enough there to cut threads. However, I might be able to weld on a fitting, so not much different from the other idea.
I will hold off for hopefully a better part to work from. I prefer the smaller form and I'd prefer that fuel not have to do a 180 turn at the end.
It just hurts to pay big bucks for a Cosworth set only to cannibalize them. I will be adding dampers to whatever I use, just like the Cossie's on the car now (with 13mm spacers).
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Old 02-07-2019, 06:29 PM   #130
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So both those rails are identical? Like not symmetrical (rear exiting in both left and fishy runner side)?
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Old 02-08-2019, 09:32 AM   #131
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Yes, both Boomba and Perrin and, for that matter, all fuel rails that I am aware of are identical for each side. No unique left or right.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:16 PM   #132
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Seems like a stupid way to build a rail that feeds and returns from the Same side of the rail. Unless you plan to run in series, but who does that.
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Old 02-09-2019, 10:35 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow_Shovel View Post
Seems like a stupid way to build a rail that feeds and returns from the Same side of the rail. Unless you plan to run in series, but who does that.
I don't see it as stupid. Both designs have their merits and to some degree I favor the Boomba design. A fuel rail where the turbo side fittings and lines stay away from the turbo is great, and on the left side you save some in fuel line length and the install can be cleaner by having shorter return lines on the left and not looping the line back from the front.
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Old 02-09-2019, 03:07 PM   #134
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Here's where I am now, with this mockup. Plugging and relocating the bottom inlet/outlet. Replacing a nipple with AN fitting.


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Old 02-15-2019, 03:16 PM   #135
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Default Using STi fuel rails with no spacers

A change of direction. The stock, late model STi fuel rails have the least amount of interference of any rails tried. Since I am unlikely to exceed 500 WHP I am going to try modifying the STi rails. There is a significant blockage with stock rails where they are rounded on the ends of the tubing. That crimping to make the tubing end rounded creates a 39% blockage of the tubing ID. BTW, the feed line from the gas tank has the same blockage issue! Reducing the blockage in four places really opens up the potential of the stock rails.
I am looking forward to finalizing a new fuel rail design so I can have some made in aluminum. They should eliminate some or all of the customization, that I note below, that has been required to the cylinder head's bracket for retaining the solenoid valve.

I reworked the solenoid bracket to take an Allen drive, flat head screw. I then shaved about 3/16's of an inch off the height of the arm that sticks up and accepts the screw.
To clock the connector out of the way of the fuel rail I ground away the crimped steel which determines the orientation between the solenoid and the valve body. I used a small carbide burr in a Dremel tool to grind out the crimp rather than disturb the valve by prying at the crimped spot in the sheetmetal. Grinding away the steel crimp allows you to use a wrench on the flats at the end of the valve body and rotate the valve about 25. Holding the solenoid body in soft vice jaws makes it possible to swivel the valve without too much effort. Then you re-crimp the edge of the steel housing into the dimple as before. On installation, you have to reshape the bracket a bit due to the clocking.
As to the fuel rail itself you will immediately notice that I welded on ears to the intake to accept any top-feed fuel rail. This positioned the cups that accept the injectors too high. Were it others, they usually have spacers that can be adjusted. I cut the mounting bracket off the fuel rail and rewelded it with it positioned an 1/8" higher. This made for a better fit on the injectors and allows the use of a shimming washer if needed. I made a jig for this repositioning that used my aluminum dummy injectors to hold the rail and two pins to locate the mounting bracket. Once tacked it was easy to weld. These rails will be good for 500 HP, no sweat. They don't have the restrictions that the rest of the stock fuel line assembly has.

6AN SS nipples are ordered. To finish the hard portions of the fuel lines I will weld them to the ends of bent 3/8" SS tubing and splice them onto the stock tubing. The old stock rails barely clear the banjo bolt and banjo, but they do!
I'm very pleased with the results since I can just use a normal gasket without phenolic spacers.
I won't have any hood interference issues. I'll have the intake rotated, so lessened turbo lag and have the high-end benefits of the larger plenum and longer runners.


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Old 02-15-2019, 03:21 PM   #136
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Theres longer fuel injectors too
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Old 02-15-2019, 05:44 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no694terry View Post
Theres longer fuel injectors too
I may look into that. Thing is, I have ID 2000's sitting here and two other cars that need larger than 1000 cc's. This is my second car with a reversed NA intake and I'm trying to keep everything as standard and interchangeable as possible.
For others, jacking up the fuel rails with taller injectors and spacers for the rails might be a good solution.
I want to design and offer new fuel rails that address all the issues that running an NA long runner manifold causes. The NA's are plentiful and work well for the budget racer that can work with and adapt them.
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:35 PM   #138
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What AVCS solenoids are you guys using with the rear facing plug rather than vertical? I took a shot in the dark and ended up with some that arent quite right. Using Ver 8 EJ207 heads if that makes a difference.
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:53 AM   #139
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I'm no expert since I've never intentionally ventured below 2007 STi, or V9. I have a pair like on the right that I think came off a friend's '15 STi. It's shorter and doesn't look interchangeable. I've never seen one with a vertical connector. All mine look like what I posted (except for my mod) and are interchangeable except for bracket orientation. You can even take an exhaust solenoid from a DAVCS and cut one side off the bracket and use it on top. There is no left or right (or intake or exhaust) except for the retaining bracket.
BTW, when using an exhaust solenoid on top: snips will cut the metal bracket. I drill/Dremel out the spot weld on the unwanted side and pry the bracket off.
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Old 04-28-2019, 03:52 AM   #140
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Hi guys,

First post here. I am looking for some help with my build and Im a bit unsure of how to go about fitting the NA manifold.

I want to use a short runner manifold with my TGV's etc. But I want to run DBW. What throttle bodies fit this?

Also as I have it rotated I need the wedge to get the clearance, does anywhere still do this?

Thanks in advance
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Old 05-01-2019, 09:31 AM   #141
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Does anyone succeed to put reversed 2.5i intake manifold and keep the a/c?
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:13 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugeye2.1 View Post
Got a set of ID2000 injectors and the connector seems to hit the bottom of the manifold and the injector bucket is too big, anyone have the same issue?
At least for ID injectors I'm running, you have to remove material off the face where the injector plugs into the manifold. Otherwise the connector on the side of the injector interferes. My recollection is it's about a sixteenth of an inch that must be removed.
Have not found any issues with injectors going into the holes. Perhaps tight, but they have worked.

And an update: I have modified the stock fuel rails to take 3/8" SS tubing and I clocked the connectors out of the way so I won't need any spacer. It is very custom for now and I want to make sure it works before sharing.

Last edited by Scargod; 07-16-2019 at 03:17 PM. Reason: Added update
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:28 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
At least for ID injectors I'm running, you have to remove material off the face where the injector plugs into the manifold. Otherwise the connector on the side of the injector interferes. My recollection is it's about a sixteenth of an inch that must be removed.
Have not found any issues with injectors going into the holes. Perhaps tight, but they have worked.

And an update: I have modified the stock fuel rails to take 3/8" SS tubing and I clocked the connectors out of the way so I won't need any spacer. It is very custom for now and I want to make sure it works before sharing.
Sounds interesting your new setup, got anything to share so far, cheers!
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Old 05-09-2020, 02:44 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no694terry View Post
another 2.5i mani thread. guess i'll whore my progress here too. IAG rail to in today, waiting on rail fitting to just use 5/16" hose from CA

Its been a squeeze reversing this monster






The gaskets or seals that are in injector hole on the manifold, does anyone know part number or what year/ model Subaru they come from?

My Cobb 1050x injectors are swimming in manifold.
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Old 10-03-2020, 03:03 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
At least for ID injectors I'm running, you have to remove material off the face where the injector plugs into the manifold. Otherwise the connector on the side of the injector interferes. My recollection is it's about a sixteenth of an inch that must be removed.
Have not found any issues with injectors going into the holes. Perhaps tight, but they have worked.

And an update: I have modified the stock fuel rails to take 3/8" SS tubing and I clocked the connectors out of the way so I won't need any spacer. It is very custom for now and I want to make sure it works before sharing.
Any update? I'm working on this now too, only I am going to be running it normal way around, but installing in a GC8, so I need the thinnest spacer possible to clear the hood.
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Old 10-04-2020, 12:04 PM   #146
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Default Spacers needed for NON-AVCS engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricco View Post
... but installing in a GC8, so I need the thinnest spacer possible to clear the hood.
Unless a hybrid build, doesn't the GC8 have NON-AVCS heads? If so I see no reason why you would have need for spacers. There again, I've never built a non-AVCS engine.
Seems to me the whole issue of spacers is to clear the AVCS components. See post above, where no spacers were used.

I'm not finished with my project but I am about to publish a Shutterfly link to a photo essay of everything I have done that was incorporated into my current race engine using 13mm spacers and another essay album on what I'm working on for the next build, with no spacers, to go into my '07 GD STI.

Last edited by Scargod; 10-04-2020 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Added link
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Old 10-04-2020, 01:12 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
Unless a hybrid build, doesn't the GC8 have NON-AVCS heads? If so I see no reason why you would have need for spacers. There again, I've never built a non-AVCS engine.
Seems to me the whole issue of spacers is to clear the AVCS components. See post above, where no spacers were used.

I'm not finished with my project but I am about to publish a Shutterfly link to a photo essay of everything I have done that was incorporated into my current race engine using 13mm spacers and another essay album on what I'm working on for the next build, with no spacers, to go into my '07 GD STI.
Thanks for the reply. I'm aware that it wouldn't need spacers on a non-AVCS head, but I'm using the engine from my 05 STI so I have single AVCS.

I am trying to use the Radium fuel rails too, with the ORB port on the bottom. My plan is to use the bottom port as the fuel line entry, and plug the ends, or use FPD's, in at least one of the rear ports. My setup will be return-less rails, with the return to the tank being direct from the Radium FPR.

Anyway, I'm trying to learn how you clocked the AVCS electrical connector, it seems that is the part that interferes the most. I'm hoping that if I can clock mine, I can get away with an 8mm spacer on the manifold, which I think should give me good hood clearance.


Last edited by Ricco; 10-04-2020 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 10-05-2020, 09:17 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricco View Post
Thanks for the reply. I'm aware that it wouldn't need spacers on a non-AVCS head, but I'm using the engine from my 05 STI so I have single AVCS.

I am trying to use the Radium fuel rails too, with the ORB port on the bottom. My plan is to use the bottom port as the fuel line entry, and plug the ends, or use FPD's, in at least one of the rear ports. My setup will be return-less rails, with the return to the tank being direct from the Radium FPR.

Anyway, I'm trying to learn how you clocked the AVCS electrical connector, it seems that is the part that interferes the most. I'm hoping that if I can clock mine, I can get away with an 8mm spacer on the manifold, which I think should give me good hood clearance.
Accurate critical information helps!
Radium rails may be too big in diameter. I think on the left side they extend too far and interfere with the AVCS banjo bolt. You should use fuel pressure dampers (FPD's) in the end of the rails if you find a way to use the Radiums. You show small, stock injectors in your mockup. As I mentioned I had to trim down the manifold to clear the ID injector connector which is lower on the body than those stock injectors.
One thing I've been meaning to research is if a fuel injector company, like Injector Dynamics, has longer injectors. Then you jack up the fuel rails with the longer injectors rather than raise the whole manifold with spacers.
Here are links to my Shutterfly albums:
https://link.shutterfly.com/lyuU27eTkab (with 13mm spacers)
https://link.shutterfly.com/aPvQIH8Tkab (unfinished prototype setup without spacers}
I left some notes with the pictures. You see them when you double-click to open a single image. I did not have to uncrimp the end. You grind out the original staked locking spot at the indentation.You can use a wrench on the flats of the valve part while you hold the solenoid portion in a vise. Then just modify the length of the bracket by re-bending it. Note the cutting of the mount on the head and the use of a flat-head screw. All this might be unnecessary if ID offers a taller injector!
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Old 10-05-2020, 07:43 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
Accurate critical information helps!
Radium rails may be too big in diameter. I think on the left side they extend too far and interfere with the AVCS banjo bolt. You should use fuel pressure dampers (FPD's) in the end of the rails if you find a way to use the Radiums. You show small, stock injectors in your mockup. As I mentioned I had to trim down the manifold to clear the ID injector connector which is lower on the body than those stock injectors.
One thing I've been meaning to research is if a fuel injector company, like Injector Dynamics, has longer injectors. Then you jack up the fuel rails with the longer injectors rather than raise the whole manifold with spacers.
Here are links to my Shutterfly albums:
https://link.shutterfly.com/lyuU27eTkab (with 13mm spacers)
https://link.shutterfly.com/aPvQIH8Tkab (unfinished prototype setup without spacers}
I left some notes with the pictures. You see them when you double-click to open a single image. I did not have to uncrimp the end. You grind out the original staked locking spot at the indentation.You can use a wrench on the flats of the valve part while you hold the solenoid portion in a vise. Then just modify the length of the bracket by re-bending it. Note the cutting of the mount on the head and the use of a flat-head screw. All this might be unnecessary if ID offers a taller injector!
Thanks for the links, I've already looked through your journal and your Shutterfly.. I even found that image of the dismantled OCV on a Factory Five Forum!

Couple specific questions.. How does the OCV operate exactly? It appears as though the solenoid simply pushes the pin into the housing by various amounts (as opposed to rotating the pin in anyway as the pin appears to be symmetrical), depending on how much advance the ECU is calling for.. Do you agree? If so, it shouldn't matter how much you 'clock' the solenoid as you are not 'clocking' the Pin's housing at all (which appears to be the important part to be aligned with the head).

Have you actually used the 'clocked' OCV's in anger yet? Any issues with them being rotated?

As far as my injectors go, I was only using the stock NA injectors for testing. The Fuel rail, rail spacers and rail brackets, dictate the height of the rail, relative to the manifold. The NA injectors are actually too short, they dont fully seat in the manifold.

And for my contribution to the thread.. A -8 ORB fitting arrived today so I was able to do some more test fitting. I'm still waiting for an 8mm spacer to arrive (hopefully this week) so I stuffed some coasters under the manifold (they measured approx 8.5mm) to do some testing (I couldnt bolt the manifold down with the coasters so I was guessing a little bit on alignment).

The ID 1050x injectors shown here are fully seated in the manifold with no interference on the connector. I'm sure they are fully seated (downward) but they still feel somewhat loose in the bore.


With a simulated 8mm spacer I have decent clearance, notwithstanding the electrical connector, the OCV bracket will need to be trimmed too though.




The rail clears the Drivers side banjo (without a fitting installed)


It seems as though the -8 ORB to 6AN fitting could be used on the front end of the rail with minor clearancing of the adapter (and the 8mm spacer).
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