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Old 11-17-2013, 01:28 PM   #26
KillerBMotorsport
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewayz View Post
So it has nothing to do with the garbage sensors stri uses?
That's right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irv Weissmanhowerton View Post
You might not always "need" an 11mm oil pump on a gd. But are you saying that it actually hurts something?

I know there are endless people who could chime in with no problems at all like your experiencing. Sounds like just one instance your dealing with, if soooo many equally experienced tuners & builders have done the 11 in a gd in the past, I personally have had my last 4-5 motors with 11mm, My most current motor being built by Mike Keegan, who went over the parts list with me & assured all good, no problems, he was part of building ali/esx 1400whp 7 second car's motor

I'm sure alot of people will question this thread & take your input personally as most of us has had other reputable people tell us, 11 is all good, I have always understood 12 was overkill & out of the question, but 11 being bad on a single avcs or causing any issues, not so sure
Does it hurt something? That depends. If the motor is built super loose, lessening restrictions through the block/heads, bearing journal turbo, and the 11mm pump is shimmed to 85psi (from factory 76psi) it may be the right choice. Putting an 11mm pump on a moderately built short block, or 'stock' built block with drop-in, it will be more harmful than beneficial. For street guys flogging it through a few gears once in a while it would likely never be any sort of issue. At some level of performance adding another thermal load, aeration, and increasing parasitic losses (yes it takes more energy to pump +30% = several more gallons per minute) it all add up.

We've seen track guys have high RPM pressure drop, that disappeared after downsizing pumps.

A good builder will always have oiling in mind when building an engine for a specific application. Different applications require different components, clearances, etc... including the proper oil pump for the build. I know there are a lot of good builders out there. There are also some not so good builders out there that do not even know or understand the differences besides "the 11mm flows more'. As a manufacturer who designs Subaru oiling system products, we have a pretty decent knowledge of the Subaru oiling system, consult and work with builders and race teams all over the world, and have our products on MANY Subarus taking podium finishes almost every venue of motorsports Subarus are involved in. I should hope we know what we're talking about

My intention with this thread was to spur some discussion and debate... and just maybe a bit of knowledge to help the uninformed make an more informed decision. As I said before, there probably are hordes or users that run 11mm pumps without issues and I know there have been some that HAVE had problems. If this thread prevents an issue for someone, it's been worth it. If it offends anyone, that was not my intention.
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:49 PM   #27
Irv Weissmanhowerton
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Well put
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Old 11-17-2013, 10:23 PM   #28
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Okay tried a video.


Gauge legends described in video details.

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Old 11-18-2013, 07:30 AM   #29
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Great job! You're very close to mimicking the clip I took. Do the same test in the next gear and you'd be there. Regardless, you've validated my OP, and need for the bigger oil pump in GRs cars
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Old 11-18-2013, 08:03 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Great job! You're very close to mimicking the clip I took. Do the same test in the next gear and you'd be there. Regardless, you've validated my OP, and need for the bigger oil pump in GRs cars
Its still noticeable with a 12mm as well. More like only a 20 psi drop not 40.
thats with modded oil passages, killerb pickup, pan and baffle. BB turbo.
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:23 AM   #31
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I agree that the larger pump is required for the increased fluctuating oil flow demands associated with DAVCS. The magnitude of pressure drop in the block oil galleries is what I take a bit of issue with. I have played with all gears and load conditions, and I can get a larger drop in the heads, but not such a drop in the block galleys that you demonstrate. As I said before though, maybe this relates to the P&L 11mm pump and tune specific conditions.

To have a larger pump if not needed seems counterproductive to me as it would likely leak oil from seals prematurely. Not to mention bypassing and recycling oil leading to a shortened oil lifespan.
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:27 AM   #32
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BTW Chris..... Thanks for contributing real world data for all to share and debate. This is a great hobby for me, and I love learning more everyday. Other shops such as yours that generate income from these project cars deserve a huge "kudos" for sharing their experience and guidance.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:08 PM   #33
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Wouldn't a 10mm shimmed oil pump be more for street use.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:16 PM   #34
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c'mon man.

this is america.

more IS better.

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Old 11-18-2013, 04:14 PM   #35
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I run 20 shims......dont know what the fuss is about.......i think a 150psi idle is the **** !!!
lol
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Old 11-18-2013, 08:29 PM   #36
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I run an MPS PnP'd and shimmed 10mm Subaru pump on my high CR, +2mm long rod 2.5 with D25 heads. I see mid 90s at 8k redline and mid 20s to mid 30s depending on the temp. I'm sure an 11mm pump would be aerating the oil through the bypass valve, hastening oil degradation and possibly causing bearing damage because of the aeration!
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:25 AM   #37
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I have an 11mm ported and I see about 90psi as well at 8k. With 30's hot at idle.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:21 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strider327 View Post
Wouldn't a 10mm shimmed oil pump be more for street use.
No

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
I run an MPS PnP'd and shimmed 10mm Subaru pump on my high CR, +2mm long rod 2.5 with D25 heads. I see mid 90s at 8k redline and mid 20s to mid 30s depending on the temp. I'm sure an 11mm pump would be aerating the oil through the bypass valve, hastening oil degradation and possibly causing bearing damage because of the aeration!
Sounds great ^

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewayz View Post
I have an 11mm ported and I see about 90psi as well at 8k. With 30's hot at idle.
^and you would, but the difference between you an Manitou is that your setup will bypass a significant amount more.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:34 AM   #39
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My 11mm on a 2.5/205 hybrid see's 22psi hot idle and around 60 psi at 3200 cruise. It will peak at 80 at 7200 rpm. Thats on 10w30.

I run a manley crank so there is alot more flow to the rod bearings than a stock crank.
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Old 11-19-2013, 04:18 PM   #40
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With schaeffer race 9000 5w50, im seeing 26psi hot idle, 75 cruise and like 86ish at 7500
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:15 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
No Sounds great ^ ^and you would, but the difference between you an Manitou is that your setup will bypass a significant amount more.
Anyway to measure that?
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Old 11-20-2013, 02:01 AM   #42
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what weight oil was used in the video?
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Old 11-20-2013, 02:06 AM   #43
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anybody know if the GR WRX come with a 10mm pump?
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Old 11-20-2013, 08:47 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorDucK View Post
anybody know if the GR WRX come with a 10mm pump?
Yes they are 10mm
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Old 11-20-2013, 08:49 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorDucK View Post
anybody know if the GR WRX come with a 10mm pump?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
Yes they are 10mm
10mm is correct. It's an EJ255!
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:28 PM   #46
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I to had this problem. I was told some clearances. But upon engine tare down i found the bearing clearances where all STD. Most likely my stout engine builder slapped it together called it a day. Moral of the story is don't trust anyone in this business simple.
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Old 11-22-2013, 04:04 AM   #47
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ej20g ej22t ej22g ej20k ej207 V7 V8 V9 spec-c RaR STi STi STi 22B S201 S202 S203 S204 = 10mm pump oem factory....
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:53 AM   #48
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there's an even smaller factory pump in that of the NA models (8mm). like i mentioned before, only time i ever lost pressure with that was when the oil got SERIOUSLY hot.
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Old 12-01-2013, 06:24 PM   #49
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Great... Now I don't feel to fine about my build.... I have a jdm 12 mm in my ej255 build with sti stock nitrated crank manley rods cps with Gt35. I have got a prosport gauge for oil pressure... I know not the best but I read 70 psi at cold start idle which I thought was too low. It gets extremely low at warm idle around 7-15 psi not to accurate. Running rotella 5w40. I keep thinking it's the sender. Tomorrow I'm getting a mechanical gauge to double check but looking at this thread made me question my decision on this pump and now I see how ppl are saying bigger isn't better.... it has not been an issue till now I see this thread.
Please help me Nasioc and KillerB I have your pick-up in Stock pan already at 1300 miles on build and tuned. I have just noticed codes for OCV like P0011. But it will go off and on... im also replacing that ocv, since i did replace the driver side one before.

Car runs great and no smoke or knocking issues just very interested i found this thread and trying to pin point an answer on my ride, this prosport gauge and now this thread!

Thanks for the help!!!

Car runs great again like I said but see this unusual pressure issue tied with my experiences thus far on my build!
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Old 12-01-2013, 06:38 PM   #50
SubiMartien
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Great... Now I don't feel to fine about my build.... I have a jdm 12 mm in my ej255 build with sti stock nitrated crank manley rods cps with Gt35. I have got a prosport gauge for oil pressure... I know not the best but I read 70 psi at cold start idle which I thought was too low. It gets extremely low at warm idle around 7-15 psi not to accurate. Running rotella 5w40. I keep thinking it's the sender. Tomorrow I'm getting a mechanical gauge to double check but looking at this thread made me question my decision on this pump and now I see how ppl are saying bigger isn't better.... it has not been an issue till now I see this thread.
Please help me Nasioc and KillerB I have your pick-up in Stock pan already at 1300 miles on build and tuned. I have just noticed codes for OCV like P0011. But it will go off and on... im also replacing that ocv, since i did replace the driver side one before.

Car runs great and no smoke or knocking issues just very interested i found this thread and trying to pin point an answer on my ride, this prosport gauge and now this thread!

Thanks for the help!!!

Car runs great again like I said but see this unusual pressure issue tied with my experiences thus far on my build!
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