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Old 12-01-2013, 06:58 PM   #51
SubiMartien
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And my pressure drop looks like this on cold start like your video. Mec gauge will only tell me if is true damn prosport is brand new. Mted where oem pressure sensor was.
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Old 12-01-2013, 07:03 PM   #52
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I applaud your intentions, this is a time I'm in need of your help as I posted before. I think with my build and solving my pressure drops will be very informative!

J. Martien

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
That's right.



Does it hurt something? That depends. If the motor is built super loose, lessening restrictions through the block/heads, bearing journal turbo, and the 11mm pump is shimmed to 85psi (from factory 76psi) it may be the right choice. Putting an 11mm pump on a moderately built short block, or 'stock' built block with drop-in, it will be more harmful than beneficial. For street guys flogging it through a few gears once in a while it would likely never be any sort of issue. At some level of performance adding another thermal load, aeration, and increasing parasitic losses (yes it takes more energy to pump +30% = several more gallons per minute) it all add up.

We've seen track guys have high RPM pressure drop, that disappeared after downsizing pumps.

A good builder will always have oiling in mind when building an engine for a specific application. Different applications require different components, clearances, etc... including the proper oil pump for the build. I know there are a lot of good builders out there. There are also some not so good builders out there that do not even know or understand the differences besides "the 11mm flows more'. As a manufacturer who designs Subaru oiling system products, we have a pretty decent knowledge of the Subaru oiling system, consult and work with builders and race teams all over the world, and have our products on MANY Subarus taking podium finishes almost every venue of motorsports Subarus are involved in. I should hope we know what we're talking about

My intention with this thread was to spur some discussion and debate... and just maybe a bit of knowledge to help the uninformed make an more informed decision. As I said before, there probably are hordes or users that run 11mm pumps without issues and I know there have been some that HAVE had problems. If this thread prevents an issue for someone, it's been worth it. If it offends anyone, that was not my intention.
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:38 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Some great speculation and guesses here. Lets see if we can fill in some blanks



Yes. This is the best place as it's immediately at the pump's output before distribution to the different galleries.



^ Rock on Mr Man!



Setup is stage II+ 2012 STi. If you emulate these conditions I'm very certain you'll see nearly the exact same thing.



Too much flow doesn't make the pressure drop. The AVCS exhaust cam solenoid DOES cause the pressure drop. What you don't see in the vid is that I am at cruise and then I lift off. AVCS solenoids open, pressure drops 40psi!



It won't drop because you don't have dual AVCS, but because you ARE pumping +30% more oil, it's just going through your bypass valve. Adding heat you wouldn't normally add, and at high RPMs you can experience a pressure drop due to aeration, unless the pump/bypass has been properly ported



No sender issue, no gauge issue. It's got a Killer B Pickup installed of course Everything works just as it should.



Again, you won't see those fluctuation with a GD because there is no dual AVCS. Fluctuations you see are likely due to the bypass regulating pressure.



Observed oscillations are due to bypass valve operation typically. The pump squeezes oil MANY times per revolution of the crank. It happens much too fast to see or for a typical gauge/sensor to react to.



Just showing the reason an 11mm pump IS needed in GRs
So, an 11mm pump is only needed on a GR sti with dual avcs, correct? The wrx stick to 10mm?
Sorry for bringing back from the dead. Hah.
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Old 03-11-2017, 06:44 PM   #54
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Old thread, but I noticed the claim that an 11mm pump flows 30% more oil. Where did that come from? Going from 10-11mm should result in 10% more oil, right?
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Old 03-11-2017, 08:48 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
Old thread, but I noticed the claim that an 11mm pump flows 30% more oil. Where did that come from? Going from 10-11mm should result in 10% more oil, right?
Assuming rotor dimensions are equal in everything but thickness, this is correct. Volume = area x height.

10 mm to 11 mm should be a 10% increase in volume per revolution.
10 mm to 12 mm should be 20%.

Any ideas why the EJ20X and EJ20Y motors (the first to use Dual AVCS) were equipped with a 12 mm pump (15010AA310) rather than 11 mm?

There was an early comment about ball-bearing turbos requiring less oil, but it should be noted that the difference in OEM journal bearing to ball-bearing restrictor sizes is minimal.
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Old 03-11-2017, 08:53 PM   #56
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Looked at the manuals, think I figured it out- the specs for the 11mm pump give flow at 6000rpm, while the 10mm pump is listed at 5000. So if you just compared the numbers at a glance you get around a 30% difference.

If you interpolate back to 5000rpm, it works out to more like 10%
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Old 03-12-2017, 08:59 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
Looked at the manuals, think I figured it out- the specs for the 11mm pump give flow at 6000rpm, while the 10mm pump is listed at 5000. So if you just compared the numbers at a glance you get around a 30% difference.

If you interpolate back to 5000rpm, it works out to more like 10%
Almost exactly 10%, actually - 47.0 liter/min (2006 STI) vs. 47.25 liter/min back-calculated (2008 STI, 5000 RPM, 90% flow rating). It looks like the idle flow values are incorrect, however - probably a copy/paste error... lots of these in the 2006 manual.
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:41 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
Assuming rotor dimensions are equal in everything but thickness, this is correct. Volume = area x height.

10 mm to 11 mm should be a 10% increase in volume per revolution.
10 mm to 12 mm should be 20%.

Any ideas why the EJ20X and EJ20Y motors (the first to use Dual AVCS) were equipped with a 12 mm pump (15010AA310) rather than 11 mm?

There was an early comment about ball-bearing turbos requiring less oil, but it should be noted that the difference in OEM journal bearing to ball-bearing restrictor sizes is minimal.


Oil Squirters.
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Old 03-13-2017, 12:08 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
Oil Squirters.
I considered this, but after looking through the parts system, it doesn't appear that the EJ20X/Y was equipped with them.
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Old 03-13-2017, 12:54 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
I considered this, but after looking through the parts system, it doesn't appear that the EJ20X/Y was equipped with them.
Maybe I am not following something but they did come with them if they're closed deck.
https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...squirters.html
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Old 03-13-2017, 01:22 PM   #61
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He is talking about the newer dual avcs 207s, with 12mm oil pumps. Not closed deck, no oil squirters.

My guess would be the extra revs. Isn't redline like 8250 on some of those?
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Old 03-13-2017, 02:20 PM   #62
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I've had an 11mm on my single AVCS for 7 years and it has worked great. I would rather have the extra flow when I rev it up too 8000 than crazy pressure. I stays at around 65 psi just cruising around.
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Old 03-13-2017, 02:32 PM   #63
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I have used either. Given the range of acceptable clearances, I think 11mm pumps can be fine on the single avcs engines. 10mm pumps get used on no-avcs dohc engines and there is no problem there, so add avcs and a little more bearing clearances and an 11mm pump doesn't seem like such a bad idea.
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Old 03-13-2017, 03:58 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
I have used either. Given the range of acceptable clearances, I think 11mm pumps can be fine on the single avcs engines. 10mm pumps get used on no-avcs dohc engines and there is no problem there, so add avcs and a little more bearing clearances and an 11mm pump doesn't seem like such a bad idea.
I too am using an 11mm on my built motor. I originally had a 10mm too on the built motor but didn't like having to run 20-50 oil to keep 20psi hot oil pressure at factory idle.

Went to an 11mm and can run 5-40 rotella t6 and keep the same oil pressure. Plus if you want to argue semantics running a thinner oil results in more flow of fluid and increases cooling of parts in the engine.

FWIW my mains are 0.0013-0.0015 and rods are 0.0019-0.0021 across the board. My cruise pressure is 65-70 psi at 3000 rpm and my redline pressure is 80-85 psi (6800 rpm) and I did add 1 shim to get the same relief pressure as a 10mm.
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Old 03-13-2017, 07:47 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
Maybe I am not following something but they did come with them if they're closed deck.
https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...squirters.html
EJ20G is not the EJ20X/Y.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
He is talking about the newer dual avcs 207s, with 12mm oil pumps. Not closed deck, no oil squirters.

My guess would be the extra revs. Isn't redline like 8250 on some of those?
No, I'm not. The EJ20X and EJ20Y are automatic and manual versions (respectively) of a Legacy Dual AVCS motor. It was the motor that Subaru introduced Dual AVCS on, and it was the source of the 12 mm oil pump. I've seen all sorts of speculation about where the 12 mm pump came from (STI option part, etc.) but this is the actual source - a Legacy 2.0 motor called the EJ20X or EJ20Y.
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:40 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
EJ20G is not the EJ20X/Y.
And here I thought you were using X/Y as place holders for letters
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Old 03-14-2017, 10:19 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
I too am using an 11mm on my built motor. I originally had a 10mm too on the built motor but didn't like having to run 20-50 oil to keep 20psi hot oil pressure at factory idle.

Went to an 11mm and can run 5-40 rotella t6 and keep the same oil pressure. Plus if you want to argue semantics running a thinner oil results in more flow of fluid and increases cooling of parts in the engine.

FWIW my mains are 0.0013-0.0015 and rods are 0.0019-0.0021 across the board. My cruise pressure is 65-70 psi at 3000 rpm and my redline pressure is 80-85 psi (6800 rpm) and I did add 1 shim to get the same relief pressure as a 10mm.
I had the exact same experience. Pressure was uncomfortably low (as low as 5-7 psi, normally 10-13 psi measured right above the oil pump) at hot idle with the 10mm on my SAVCS 05 running 5w-40 so I jumped to 15w-50 Motul to compensate. We swapped it out for an 11mm and all is well. I'm going to be trying out Miller's 5w-40 this season. I did not shim the relief of the 11mm but wish I would have. Cruising oil pressure at operating temp is ~65 psi but I don't see over 75psi except on cold starts. Next time I'm in there I plan to add 1 shim to bump the bypass pressure up to the 10mm spec.
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Old 03-14-2017, 10:56 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STiSomeday View Post
I had the exact same experience. Pressure was uncomfortably low (as low as 5-7 psi, normally 10-13 psi measured right above the oil pump) at hot idle with the 10mm on my SAVCS 05 running 5w-40 so I jumped to 15w-50 Motul to compensate. We swapped it out for an 11mm and all is well. I'm going to be trying out Miller's 5w-40 this season. I did not shim the relief of the 11mm but wish I would have. Cruising oil pressure at operating temp is ~65 psi but I don't see over 75psi except on cold starts. Next time I'm in there I plan to add 1 shim to bump the bypass pressure up to the 10mm spec.

Wow only 75 psi at cold starts? I see 100 psi usually, if its in the afternoon on a hot day it will be 95 psi. But your hot idle temp is not to bad so maybe just weird things are happening. 5-7 psi is pretty low though. I started to feel uncomfortable around 13 psi with mine even though it was still within that 10psi/1000rpm.

I personally think that the 11mm is going to do more harm than good is a little blown out of proportion.
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Old 03-14-2017, 11:02 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
Wow only 75 psi at cold starts? I see 100 psi usually, if its in the afternoon on a hot day it will be 95 psi. But your hot idle temp is not to bad so maybe just weird things are happening. 5-7 psi is pretty low though. I started to feel uncomfortable around 13 psi with mine even though it was still within that 10psi/1000rpm.

I personally think that the 11mm is going to do more harm than good is a little blown out of proportion.

Sorry, I worded that poorly. I don't see over 75 psi while running the engine out to 7200 rpm, so an extra shim would help there. The only time I see pressure higher than 75 is on cold starts, where it's at 95-100 psi.

I only dipped down into the single digits a few times, all occurrences were due to being stuck in traffic on the highway in the summer.

The 11mm pump may not be right for some builds, but it seems to be the right choice for yours, mine, and probably others.

Last edited by STiSomeday; 03-14-2017 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 03-14-2017, 11:29 AM   #70
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I have the opposite experience

on my single avcs 2.34 destroker I ran a massaged 11mm pump with no additional shims , oil pressure was around 90-95 cold and 25-30 at idle hot (11-1200rpm), cruising @ 70-75mph saw 50-60 depending on rpm , 85-90 at 8-8500rpm . i shimmed the pump at about 200miles and saw almost no changes except at cold oil temps , this was all on motul break in oil . that engine was disassembled just under 1k mi due to a lack of compression clearance , too thin of a head gasket (not my doing). it will be back with a vengeance

new engine is an iag stg 2.5 basic closed deck , same pocket ported heads , tic staggered piper cams , fp hta76 turbo , everything except the short block and oil pump (and the guy assembling the longblock) is the same .

iag specs an 11mm for this shortblock (wondering if they are cya for the davcs engine peeps) but I went with a 10mm pump this time , deburred/massaged passages and no additional shims . after I received the assembled shorty I shoved greased ear plugs and chunks of closed cell foam with safety wire hooks stuck in them for removal in the oiling holes and cleaned up the oil passages in and out of the pump area and "matched" the oil return passages at the head to block interface . ss braided -4 lines feeding avcs and turbo on right side , oem hard line on left , no banjo screens .

same motul break in oil till 1500mi with many many changes then on to motul 5-40 300v , engine now has over 5k mi and it seems quite solid at between 425-465 whp estimated (vd and running other cars of all types with known trap speeds) .

oil pressure is now well over 100 at cold start (buries my 100psi gauge and stays there until water/oil temps start to come up) , 30-35 hot idle at 900rpm , 70+ at 3-3500 cruise , almost 95 at 7-7500k .

I do see the pressure fluctuate 10-15psi at low/mid rpms when "working the avcs" but it near instantly recovers .

I wanted the smaller pump for less heat worked into the oil , the main reason for that choice . the car was oem with a 10mm and I now use a bb garrett based turbo vs the jb oem vf so it only made sense to me to go with that .

gauge is on a thermostatic sandwich plate that feeds/returns a -10 fed 28row mocal oil cooler in warm weather and a cooler bybass loop in anything but hot weather .

volume was not equating to pressure in my case , even after shimming the 11mm pump for a higher bypass pressure and I see a higher pressure with "less" pump . bearing clearances were very close between both short blocks rod/main , obviously the clearances in the heads were the same as they are the same head assy's .

I see higher oil pressure with this setup at idle after a 20-30 min track session than I did on the old engine/11mm pump on street at idle/warm.

04 sti , street/trackday car , killer b pan/pickup/tray , no eom oil "warmer" , 255 r comps , big ap brakes , prepped chassis and susp sans roll cage , ok driver


your results may vary

Last edited by motorbykemike; 03-14-2017 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 03-14-2017, 12:54 PM   #71
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One of the guys that originally taught me how to do engine work used to build circuit and drag motors all the way up to Top Fuel stuff (which I know very little about, personally). One of his random rules-of-thumb that he passed along to me (for all engines) was that when considering oil pumps, high-volume pumps were generally a good (or, at worst, neutral) idea, while high-pressure pumps caused more harm than good.

I'm only relaying this because, generally speaking, every rule-of-thumb this guy ever taught me has proven to be entirely true.

If I were rebuilding a Subaru motor to OEM specs, I'd probably use the OEM sized pump, but wouldn't have many qualms about using a +1 mm pump if it was on-hand. On a hybrid motor, I'd consider the AVCS system as the #1 factor in oil pump choice.
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:31 PM   #72
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I ran a 11mm pump in my EJ205 with no issues what so ever for 8 years now. That engine is still running strong (375whp) with solid oil pressure at both hot idle (35psi) and at speed (80psi). I'll like to see "actual proof" instead of unproven theory that the 11mm pump is bad on the earlier engines. Especially when the EJ205 is known to spin bearings and for some magical reason my engine didn't experience that while running the 11mm pump.

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Old 03-16-2017, 01:34 AM   #73
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Sounds like DAVCS motors should just have a little Accusump.
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Old 04-03-2020, 09:27 AM   #74
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Been a few years... Anyone care to add their experiences; good, bad, or otherwise.

While we have crap tons of data at this point, we're always looking for unusual or non-typical conditions that question standard protocol.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:12 AM   #75
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I'd be more concerned about other things that go on in the engines oiling system.. like temp and cold/hot oil flow.

But besides that if it's ideal for 10psi every 1000rpm wouldn't 35 be to high of a pressure at idle?

Having oil pressure at start up would be nice.
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