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Old 04-28-2014, 04:24 PM   #76
spdracerut
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Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
ok it spools well but when does it start falling on its nose? you only revved it out to 6000 as far as i can tell?
Read this article:
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...e-Matters.aspx

There are some basic rules of thumb for HP vs. compressor flow vs fuel type used.
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Old 04-29-2014, 02:15 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
Read this article:
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...e-Matters.aspx

There are some basic rules of thumb for HP vs. compressor flow vs fuel type used.
well yes, i'm aware of how it all works.. but that doesn't answer the question.
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:37 AM   #78
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This is not a scientific method, but i always found it easy to extend graphs out further using some imagination. Most if not all graphs drop the same rate after peak torque with rpm because the boost tapers off. The turbo cant keep up with the demand for air. (But not always)

Just extend it another 1k off the paper with a similar downward slope. Unless something funky is going on it will most surely get you a ballpark figure. You can calculate hp from there.
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Old 04-29-2014, 09:44 AM   #79
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This is not a scientific method, but i always found it easy to extend graphs out further using some imagination. Most if not all graphs drop the same rate after peak torque with rpm because the boost tapers off. The turbo cant keep up with the demand for air. (But not always)

Just extend it another 1k off the paper with a similar downward slope. Unless something funky is going on it will most surely get you a ballpark figure. You can calculate hp from there.
this *seems* to be keeping up just fine though. the X67 doesn't *seem* to be able to overwhelm the 30 hotside. boost is flat but only up to 6000, so we don't actually KNOW.

if it doesn't fall on its nose after 6000 then it might be possible to swap to a gtx2867 for even faster spool without it falling over. the lack of >6000rpm data just seemed conspicuously missing to me. killerB hasn't ever been anything other than upfront with everything from what i've seen, hence it seeming quite odd/conspicuous. the vast majority of people will be spinning to at least 7.
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Old 04-29-2014, 10:16 AM   #80
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well yes, i'm aware of how it all works.. but that doesn't answer the question.
Did you read the article? Using the info in the article, this turbo is good for roughly 375whp on 93 octane. On E85, 425whp. Those numbers are typical dynojet numbers and conservative staying within the speed limits of the turbo. I have seen a GTX2867R pushed to 450whp, but highly not recommended if you want the turbo to live a long life.

Using some logical reasoning, the turbine wheel will not max out as GTX3071Rs are making 500whp on various platforms and GTX3076Rs are making 550whp. So, the limit on the GTX3067R will be the compressor wheel.

As for why KillerB only went to 6k? He was doing 3rd gear street pulls. Things like other cars and speed limits get in the way. On the dyno test he did, he noted the IATs were increasing with the stock top mount limiting power. You can see the power flatline in the dyno plot. I'm pretty sure the car is on stock heads which we know flow relatively crappy, so without more fuel octane to run more boost, I'd guess power to flatline to redline.
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Old 04-29-2014, 10:47 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
this *seems* to be keeping up just fine though. the X67 doesn't *seem* to be able to overwhelm the 30 hotside. boost is flat but only up to 6000, so we don't actually KNOW.

if it doesn't fall on its nose after 6000 then it might be possible to swap to a gtx2867 for even faster spool without it falling over. the lack of >6000rpm data just seemed conspicuously missing to me. killerB hasn't ever been anything other than upfront with everything from what i've seen, hence it seeming quite odd/conspicuous. the vast majority of people will be spinning to at least 7.
All good points and observations. There were pulls to redline as well, I only happened to grab one of the last pulls of the day when I left the shop. To me it seems to have enough data to quantify continuing development of a product. As I mentioned, the limitations of the OEM TMIC were shown as the RPMs climbed, timing was pulled. I've had an ETS TMIC sitting here for almost a week to be installed. I doubt the results will be worse. My personal thoughts on the high RPM stuff... If the car is being drive hard you can feel it dying off some after ~6,000RPPMs. If it's casual drive and I rip it through a single gear it pulls pretty well all the way to redline.

All subjective and not very useful, so take it for what it is for now, but as time passes we will have more useful data.
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Old 04-29-2014, 03:08 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
Did you read the article? Using the info in the article, this turbo is good for roughly 375whp on 93 octane. On E85, 425whp. Those numbers are typical dynojet numbers and conservative staying within the speed limits of the turbo. I have seen a GTX2867R pushed to 450whp, but highly not recommended if you want the turbo to live a long life.

Using some logical reasoning, the turbine wheel will not max out as GTX3071Rs are making 500whp on various platforms and GTX3076Rs are making 550whp. So, the limit on the GTX3067R will be the compressor wheel.

As for why KillerB only went to 6k? He was doing 3rd gear street pulls. Things like other cars and speed limits get in the way. On the dyno test he did, he noted the IATs were increasing with the stock top mount limiting power. You can see the power flatline in the dyno plot. I'm pretty sure the car is on stock heads which we know flow relatively crappy, so without more fuel octane to run more boost, I'd guess power to flatline to redline.
this is exactly what i was talking about - awesome. would suggest that a 28 hotside might give the same power with even faster spool.

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All good points and observations. There were pulls to redline as well, I only happened to grab one of the last pulls of the day when I left the shop. To me it seems to have enough data to quantify continuing development of a product. As I mentioned, the limitations of the OEM TMIC were shown as the RPMs climbed, timing was pulled. I've had an ETS TMIC sitting here for almost a week to be installed. I doubt the results will be worse. My personal thoughts on the high RPM stuff... If the car is being drive hard you can feel it dying off some after ~6,000RPPMs. If it's casual drive and I rip it through a single gear it pulls pretty well all the way to redline.

All subjective and not very useful, so take it for what it is for now, but as time passes we will have more useful data.
sounds like it's just heat soak after a while up high, which is good.
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Old 04-29-2014, 03:48 PM   #83
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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2509735

heres more details of my setup with a rotated gtx2867 for those trying to compare. My numbers on VD are also conservative if you look at the inputs, also comparing a 07+sti 4gear pull vs a 04-06 sti pull is impossible as the spool and curve will look alot more impressive on the longer 07+ gearing.

For example my buddys rotated gtx3071 setup (his complete setup is almost exactly like mine) on his 07 sti makes 300wtq at ~3050rpms on a 4th gear pull, which appears to have better response vs 4th gear graph with my setup, but after driving my car and driving his, my car feels like its on crack, the thing is just a monster in how responsive it is, almost night and day difference.
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Old 04-29-2014, 04:49 PM   #84
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That is an E85 plot so not really a super comparison. That car also has the ETS TMIC which we don't have installed yet plus the gearing differences.

Despite yours having the smaller turbo AND E85 both seem to be making 21psi ~3,200 RPMs, according to VD. So it's safe to say if the bigger 3067 were on E85 and ran the same TMIC it would be more responsive AND make more power. Am I wrong in making this statement?

If this is correct, can this be attributed to the Tial housing OEM location setup or is the 3067 that good?

The other car has a bunch of upgraded sensors, crank pulley, etc, but the only other contributing component is different brands of headers on each car.

I think there are just too many variables here to make any decent comparison of the 2 setups.
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Old 04-29-2014, 07:26 PM   #85
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Yeah its almost impossible to compare 2 different cars but im just trying to give a general idea. Before I bought my gtx2867 turbo 2 years ago I was on the fence between buying the gtx3071 or gtx2867 for the longest time and couldn't find any results. The gtx3067 wasnt even an option to buy off the shelf at the time, but im glad somebody finally tested it as its seems like its going to be an awesome choice from your results.

Id guess to say the initial throttle response will still be much better on a gtx2867 but the boost threshold on the gtx3067 could possibly be better vs the gtx2867 on these 2.5L motors.

Last edited by NA STI; 04-29-2014 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 04-30-2014, 02:51 AM   #86
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Yeah its almost impossible to compare 2 different cars but im just trying to give a general idea. Before I bought my gtx2867 turbo 2 years ago I was on the fence between buying the gtx3071 or gtx2867 for the longest time and couldn't find any results. The gtx3067 wasnt even an option to buy off the shelf at the time, but im glad somebody finally tested it as its seems like its going to be an awesome choice from your results.

Id guess to say the initial throttle response will still be much better on a gtx2867 but the boost threshold on the gtx3067 could possibly be better vs the gtx2867 on these 2.5L motors.
yep that's exactly what i was thinking. i don't understand why people buy a hotside any bigger than it needs to be. surely all it would do is hurt spool?
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:51 PM   #87
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Id guess to say the initial throttle response will still be much better on a gtx2867 but the boost threshold on the gtx3067 could possibly be better vs the gtx2867 on these 2.5L motors.
I think the initial throttle response of the GTX3067R will be close to that of the GTX2867R. The 67mm wheel is on the large side for the GT28 turbine causing a relatively worse blade speed ratio. So even though the GTX3067R has higher rotational inertia, it also has a better blade speed ratio which improves the turbine efficiency to help offset the inertia disadvantage. And the 3067 should make about 25whp more than the 2867 all else being equal due to the larger turbine creating less back pressure.

Can read a bit up on blade speed ratio here:
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...p-Details.aspx
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Old 05-05-2014, 03:11 PM   #88
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Not that we didn't kinda know already, but bolted up a 3076 and it looks good.

Something to consider is running this kit does require the bell housing to be 'clearanced' some. Nothing too exciting though.
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Old 05-05-2014, 04:05 PM   #89
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I assume air pump has to be deleted as well?
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Old 05-05-2014, 05:04 PM   #90
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^TGVs yes, but I think the air pump could stay.
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Old 05-06-2014, 08:35 AM   #91
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The compressor housing doesn't hit the hard pipe? Even most of the Blouch turbo's need the air pump gone to be able to fit. It's close though, so if yours sits even a tiny bit higher than the OEM uppipe, then it might work. It may even be close enough to come down to car to car variation.
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Old 05-06-2014, 09:16 AM   #92
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This car has the air pump deleted so I am speculating a bit here. It was also a while since these lines were on the car. I'll see if I have any of the parts kicking around and if they can be fit to a test block.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:16 PM   #93
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Agreed!

That comparison won't come from us, we have no E85 anywhere nearby
I believe last time I was in charlottesville, the shell station on 29business next to the old china house that burnt down had e85 and bio diesel at the pump and in working order . Dont make me go buy 10 gallons and drop it off at your shop
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:30 AM   #94
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^ Correct. Almost 60 mile round trip though :/

This car has become so much fun I am attracting all the wrong attention. It's just soooo easy to be IN the power. It's a bit intoxicating and my addictive immature personality are surely about to clash with the local constables. I don't think going faster would be a wise choice for me right now, lol. Maybe to bring to the dyno for fun or local auto cross.
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Old 05-08-2014, 10:26 AM   #95
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^ Correct. Almost 60 mile round trip though :/

This car has become so much fun I am attracting all the wrong attention. It's just soooo easy to be IN the power. It's a bit intoxicating and my addictive immature personality are surely about to clash with the local constables. I don't think going faster would be a wise choice for me right now, lol. Maybe to bring to the dyno for fun or local auto cross.
Don't let those gestapos get ya down. Also was just bringing up the e85 for someone who was asking for a plot. Wasnt sure yall knew about that 1 station if you ever wanted to show an e85 graph for those wondering (im not personally). I was surprised to see it last time I was visiting back home
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Old 05-08-2014, 10:45 AM   #96
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Could this type of housing be mated to an evo 3 big 16g? or just garrett turbos? I'm doing a small turbo build and would love to run a 10cm housing on my 16G, that turbine housing just makes sense...
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:50 PM   #97
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didn't see this mentioned any options for EWG plumb back for those of us wanting to maintain a lower profile or in need due to sound regulation?
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Old 05-09-2014, 08:18 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
I think the initial throttle response of the GTX3067R will be close to that of the GTX2867R. The 67mm wheel is on the large side for the GT28 turbine causing a relatively worse blade speed ratio. So even though the GTX3067R has higher rotational inertia, it also has a better blade speed ratio which improves the turbine efficiency to help offset the inertia disadvantage. And the 3067 should make about 25whp more than the 2867 all else being equal due to the larger turbine creating less back pressure.

Can read a bit up on blade speed ratio here:
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...p-Details.aspx

Thats what I was thinking before. The pairing of wheel sizes might be better. Yes the smaller mass turbine wheel should spin up faster, but if the compressor wheel is big enough it could be hard for the smaller turbine wheel to get going. This is assuming the 2.5 can produce enough exhaust gas making for pre turbo back pressure for the given size of wheels. I know this is sort of open statement and real testing on the same platform is the only way to find out for sure.
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Old 05-09-2014, 08:19 AM   #99
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Don't let those gestapos get ya down. Also was just bringing up the e85 for someone who was asking for a plot.
LOL, I try not to. For the most part they aren't bad out here in the sticks. The state cops are terrible though, they must be super bored.

Quote:
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Could this type of housing be mated to an evo 3 big 16g? or just garrett turbos? I'm doing a small turbo build and would love to run a 10cm housing on my 16G, that turbine housing just makes sense...
I have no idea. We're just used the Garretts at this point.

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didn't see this mentioned any options for EWG plumb back for those of us wanting to maintain a lower profile or in need due to sound regulation?
No. The intention of this kit was for those already running an EWG and looking to upgrade from the OEM turbo. BUT... there are some nice mini muffler options out there that people have been having good success with as far as noise control. Routing the EWG back into the exhaust stream does negate some of the benefits of the EWG, but I understand the simplicity side for noise management.
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Old 05-11-2014, 12:46 AM   #100
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This is almost exactly what kind of setup I want on my 08 STI except with a .82 hotside on E85. Beautiful! Any chance of running E85 on this setup and posting numbers?
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