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Old 08-07-2020, 12:53 AM   #26
slow.wagon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benflynn View Post
A good question would be has anyone ever broke one in wrong and had a bad result?
I've built a few EJ257's from the ground up, one full stock build using all standard parts and three heavily modified ones. I had to tear down the first heavily modified one because of a poor break-in. It took about 6000 miles to realize that it wasn't broken-in correctly. The first symptom was nonsensical oil consumption. Something like a quart every 2k miles. The next symptom was too much blow by. The third was misfires due to oil being in the combustion chamber. All of this was caused by me doing a soft break-in (no boost). I had to tear down the motor, re-hone, replace the rings and re-gap. I did a soft break-in because I had different turbo and didn't feel comfortable going into boost before figuring out the tune. Next break-in consisted of the normal series of initial oil changes followed by tune stabilization then right to multiple third gear 18psi pulls and heavy engine breaking. That motor burned less oil than brand new STI's and was silent despite having forged pistons (weisco 2618's). My last two builds were hard break-ins from the get go, no problems at all.
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Old 08-07-2020, 07:15 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by subydude View Post
It’s the sound of you making a red herring logical fallacy.

He talks about extended break in, commenting that break in is usually done in the first 80-100 km. He also touches on a few bits about how most reciprocating parts inside an engine don’t (or shouldn’t) touch. Basically what I said that it’s rings and some valve train parts.

I would suggest learning more than an hours worth (he did drone a bit) of YouTube video before you give advice on something you’ve never done
I heard what he said, so I'll repeat that just because somebody took the time to make a video doesn't make their statements true or in context. So to summarize, all the major ultra high end manufacturers are wrong and the youtube video sets it straight. Got it.
Please forward that video to the designers of the Ford GT so you can educate them.

Thanks for the suggestion, I took your advice 25 years ago when I started doing this stuff and you tube didn't exist then. It's highly likely I'm far more qualified than you to give advice like this but I can tell now you are offended that I pointed out a youtube video isn't the be all end all. (interesting also how you point to the youtube video as your "proof" of "echoing your statements" then you immediately discredit youtube videos as a source of information or learning)
Not sure what moronic fallacy that would be classified as but I'm sure there's one for it.
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Old 08-07-2020, 07:20 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by slow.wagon View Post
All of this was caused by me doing a soft break-in (no boost)
^right, and nobody said not to use good throttle and boost for a run in, so that was a mistake thinking you shouldn't do that. That would be a great way to glaze bores and end up with. . . . . .wait for it. . . poor compression, blow by and oil consumption.
It's high rpm that brings zero value and only risk to a newly assembled unit.
The fact that you can get lucky and not screw something up by ramping right to redline does not mean it brings a shred of value and no risk.

Guys like Subydude are precisely the reason manufacturers have simply given up and locked out high rpm use for the first 500 to 1000 miles. They're tired of repairing the issues from the people that just don't get it and never will.
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Old 08-07-2020, 08:16 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
I heard what he said, so I'll repeat that just because somebody took the time to make a video doesn't make their statements true or in context. So to summarize, all the major ultra high end manufacturers are wrong and the youtube video sets it straight. Got it.
Please forward that video to the designers of the Ford GT so you can educate them.

Thanks for the suggestion, I took your advice 25 years ago when I started doing this stuff and you tube didn't exist then. It's highly likely I'm far more qualified than you to give advice like this but I can tell now you are offended that I pointed out a youtube video isn't the be all end all. (interesting also how you point to the youtube video as your "proof" of "echoing your statements" then you immediately discredit youtube videos as a source of information or learning)
Not sure what moronic fallacy that would be classified as but I'm sure there's one for it.
25 years and you still haven***8217;t participated in building an engine? My statement stands of don***8217;t give advice on something you***8217;ve never done

I did enjoy the comments of that video, but my comment after was pointed at how you couldn***8217;t be bothered to watch much of it or see where it came from. I don***8217;t discredit YouTube, and it is still just a video. The point was you are pretty well stuck in your thought process and don***8217;t have the experience to comment outside of pointing at what some oem manufacturers do. Kudos to them for doing what they want. No where did I say they were wrong. I simply stated after multiple engine builds and seeing many more from others that a harder break in tends to keep oil consumption at bay and give more compression.

I***8217;m not offended in the slightest. More intrigued actually. You seem to be clinging to what others say in general with very little personal experience to back it up. The method I mentioned doesn***8217;t go right to redline, it works up to it. Granted it works up to it quickly, usually in the first 50-80 miles. Do I think big oem manufacturing has reasons for limiters? Of course. I also see a lot of stupid things done by them based on a target idea we***8217;ll never get.

So I***8217;ll go back to agree to disagree.
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Old 08-07-2020, 08:36 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by subydude View Post
commenting that break in is usually done in the first 80-100 km. He also touches on a few bits about how most reciprocating parts inside an engine don’t (or shouldn’t) touch.
^this right here is the perfect false statement, but of course because HP academy says it it must be true.

Answer me this brosky. So the motor is run in within 80-100km, or 60 miles round about right?
Cool. Since you have built so many motors, you could change the oil at 60 miles and the run in is done right? Then go ahead and change it at 500 miles again and what will you see?
Hmmmmm. . . . .wait for it. . . . .METAL particulate in the oil. So what's the theory there? The metal particulate was teleported into the oil? Or maybe the motor is NOT broken in and the metal particulate is from the motor.

Then change it again at 1000 miles.
Know what you'll see with all your experience???
Wait for it. . . .METAL particulate yet again.

After 1000 you get close to the point of NOT getting metal in the oil, thus objectively proving that is approximately the useage range that completes a run in.
Completely contrary to that guys statements that "echoed" your statements and are objectively false.
I'd love to hear your theory about how metal particulate is still being shed from the motor drastically beyond 60 lousy miles but somehow the run in is not taking place. (let me guess, agree to disagree)

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25 years and you still haven’t participated in building an engine? My statement stands of don’t give advice on something you’ve never done
You're the guy saying I've never done it. I said I never built a subaru because you are a classic dude who thinks subaru engines operate under different fundamentals.
I've actually built several motors and a complete custom vehicle from a bare frame with ZERO suspension or motor provisions of any kind and personally designed, fabricated and welded the entire platform single handed.
So yes, I have done a couple things.
I'd guess you never even came close to building a complete vehicle from two bare frame rails and probably could not pull it off, but I don't know that for sure.
All I know is what I said already, It's highly likely I'm far more qualified than you on this subject. Not positive, just highly likely.
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Old 08-07-2020, 10:28 AM   #31
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Yes, you're right
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Old 08-12-2020, 03:14 PM   #32
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Stick with the builder's recommendations. I'd hate for you to test out someone's crazy theory at the cost of thousands.
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Old 08-12-2020, 06:15 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by 3-MPG View Post
Stick with the builder's recommendations. I'd hate for you to test out someone's crazy theory at the cost of thousands.


Another one? Show me at least 1 motor failed due to poor break in
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:14 PM   #34
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just to add fuel to the fire, if you after changing the oil twice or more are still getting glitter, your engine is garbage, and was poorly built.
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:11 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by igoiks View Post
Another one? Show me at least 1 motor failed due to poor break in
I don't think anyone said poor break-in would result in engine failure, it just results in poor performance and potential engine malfunction. Engine failure would only occur if assembly or the tune was done incorrectly.
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Old 08-13-2020, 01:55 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by slow.wagon View Post
I don't think anyone said poor break-in would result in engine failure, it just results in poor performance and potential engine malfunction. Engine failure would only occur if assembly or the tune was done incorrectly.


Drag cars get new rotating assembly every regulatory they seem to perform just fine with 0 break in miles. New cars barely ever get broken in people just buy them and drive with no issues. Yeah you want to wear in cams and do oil change flush assembly lube and what not on built motor . Other than that breaking in your clutch and breaks are WAAAY more important and there’s actually data and on poorly broken in clutches and breaks never seen any on engines.
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Old 08-13-2020, 11:39 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by igoiks View Post
New cars barely ever get broken in people just buy them and drive with no issues. Yeah you want to wear in cams and do oil change flush assembly lube and what not on built motor .
New cars have been started and tested, driven on and off ships and auto transports, driven around dealer lots and on test drives. By the time a "new" vehicle has reached it's new owner, most already have 4-8 miles on the clock, which is more than enough run time to knock down any high spots and wear in the rings, etc.

A freshly rebuilt engine that has never turned over under its own power is another story all together.

As far as drag race engines go, do you really think teams spending tens of thousands of dollars on a race program are going to build an engine and run it without dyno testing it? Even the top fuel engines that are being dismantled between runs down the strip have been broken in prior to hitting the track.
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Old 08-13-2020, 03:13 PM   #38
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Every car manufacturer runs and tests their eng BEFORE its even put in the chassis. They put it together, put it on a stand and then test it with different power bands. That is the brake in process. Then of course the driving during shipment and test drives. Dealer employees do most of the new car brake in for you if you know what I mean.

Again, dont forget we care comparing apples to oranges. Can not compare a brake in for a stock eng that is designed to last long with stock numbers with not a lot of power, or and a freshly built block that has never been turned over pushing 150whp extra then what the block was designed for.

The miles on your dash have nothing to do with eng run time.
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:15 PM   #39
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Default Too late for “hard” break-in? Is it worth doing? IAG stage 2.5 short block

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Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
New cars have been started and tested, driven on and off ships and auto transports, driven around dealer lots and on test drives. By the time a "new" vehicle has reached it's new owner, most already have 4-8 miles on the clock, which is more than enough run time to knock down any high spots and wear in the rings, etc.



A freshly rebuilt engine that has never turned over under its own power is another story all together.



As far as drag race engines go, do you really think teams spending tens of thousands of dollars on a race program are going to build an engine and run it without dyno testing it? Even the top fuel engines that are being dismantled between runs down the strip have been broken in prior to hitting the track.


Exactly my point as i sated above there is nothing to break in after 50 miles and these people arguing you need upwards of 1000 per IAG and others, as far as drag engines they have no water they don’t run more than few seconds at the time.

Last edited by igoiks; 08-13-2020 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 09-09-2020, 01:48 AM   #40
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Ask 5 people and you will get 5 different opinions on this. I worry about:
1st, lifter/lobe lapping. At initial start up, do not let it idle. Get up to 2k RPM and hold it for 5-10 min. This is a good time to burp the coolant, check for leaks, and ensure oil pressure is stable. I built a pressurized oil heater tank and fill with hot oil under pressure directly at the pressure sender port (mains). Then give it 50PSI of hot oil while baring the engine over. Maybe not necessary but it make me feel better to do this before initial start up.
2nd, oil pressure, especially at idle. If you don't know your bearing clearances, this will take some experimenting. You will need to adjust idle speed and oil viscosity to obtain the HOT idle PSI you want. I like about 18-20PSI. Some will say you only need 10-15, but I have seen lobes get wiped out with stiffer springs at these pressure levels so I'm cautious now. 18-20PSI gives you a bit of buffer on a very hot day or if tracking the car. For me VR20w50 and 1000RPM on .001 mains and .002 rods gets me where I want to be. If your not hitting your desired oil PSI at higher RPM you will need to think about adding a shim to the relief.
3rd change oil frequently and look for sparkelies. After the first 100 miles it should be coming out very clean. If your at 500 miles and still getting sparkalies I would wonder about cylinder finish and if the lobes are wiping out. Listen for lifter tick progressively getting louder and do a compression check to get an idea of where the sparklies are coming from.
Everything else is up for debate (hard vs soft break-in, x miles before boost, x-miles of engine braking, ect) in my mind and has a lot to to do with how the engine was built, especially cylinder finish, PWC, lifter gap, and bearing clearance.
this thread should off been locked after this reply.
this is best info for you to have, now just use your brain and quit asking to be spoon fed
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Old 09-09-2020, 08:13 AM   #41
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just to add fuel to the fire, if you after changing the oil twice or more are still getting glitter, your engine is garbage, and was poorly built.
my stock STI motor did that and now has 113,000 miles on it and runs perfectly, so you are completely wrong
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Old 09-09-2020, 10:22 AM   #42
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my stock STI motor did that and now has 113,000 miles on it and runs perfectly, so you are completely wrong
based on your total experience of 1, im completely wrong.
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Old 09-10-2020, 09:05 AM   #43
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based on your total experience of 1, im completely wrong.
no you are a tool. . . . .and wrong too yes
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Old 09-10-2020, 09:50 AM   #44
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no you are a tool. . . . .and wrong too yes
so all you have is name calling. fact is, yes your pile of garbage will run, likely for a long time. it is however not built correctly. anybody who knows anything about building engines, will if they find sparkly stuff in the oil on first oil change tear a motor down to find the problem. there should be nothing sparkly in your oil, EVER! sparkly stuff in your oil is a sign something is not right, or dirty/sloppy assembly work. so what name are you going to call me next?
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Old 09-10-2020, 10:35 AM   #45
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Sparkly "stuff" like you call it is normal after the first, maybe 2nd oil change. Keep in mind we are not talking about 5k-10k miles oil changes, we are talking about 50, then 300-500miles. Now if you get the sparkly "stuff" after that, then yes you might deff have a problem.

Last edited by BlackFighter; 09-10-2020 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 09-10-2020, 10:55 AM   #46
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Someone pass the popcorn please. Exxxtra butter on that
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Old 09-10-2020, 12:28 PM   #47
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I can get into the debate from various angles: OEM diesel truck engines, OEM GM longblocks in marine use, and actual race engines buuuuutttttt

Call IAG. /thread
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Old 09-11-2020, 09:20 AM   #48
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Hard Break in FTW, Ive gotten hard break in instructions from both IAG and Outfront.
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Old 09-12-2020, 09:42 AM   #49
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All I do now is hard break-ins. I’ve built maybe 5 motors and all, with the exception of the first one, got tough love. Within a few days I’m usually beating the **** out of them. 1 RB, 1 1JZ, and 2 EJ25’s. No excessive oil consumption and super quiet even with forged pistons.
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Old 09-14-2020, 07:43 PM   #50
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oh my....

seat them rings, stop glazing the walls with the softness.
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