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Old 09-15-2020, 12:07 PM   #151
TurboQueef
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Originally Posted by collin2ps View Post
I am currently using the fire ring gaskets and 1/2 studs on my Outfront V3. 45 psi on a 6466 ~ 700ish whp. I have about 20+ track passes and 2k of hard street miles. I haven't had a sing hiccup or any issues.
Thank you! I mostly daily drive my STi, wonder how the composit material in the coopers will hold up over 39k plus miles tho!
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Last edited by TurboQueef; 10-08-2021 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 05-13-2021, 03:34 AM   #152
alexmartynyuk
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bumping this one, anyone running the cooper ring gasket on sleeved motors? I'm building a darton sleeved block and looking into head gaskets.
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Old 05-13-2021, 06:59 AM   #153
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why you dont use the fire rings?
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Old 05-13-2021, 09:39 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by alexmartynyuk View Post
bumping this one, anyone running the cooper ring gasket on sleeved motors? I'm building a darton sleeved block and looking into head gaskets.
Plenty of guys have run copper and stainless wire o-rings. Do you have a specific question about it?

I will say the labyrinth seal 'esque IAG system is a nice kit. Takes the Athena stainless ring just one stepped cut further
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Old 05-13-2021, 10:51 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Plenty of guys have run copper and stainless wire o-rings. Do you have a specific question about it?

I will say the labyrinth seal 'esque IAG system is a nice kit. Takes the Athena stainless ring just one stepped cut further
it may be better, but obviously requires specific block machining. So not the easiest route.

The Athena rings work....but do bite into the head and block ( maybe not on Darton sleeved blocks ? depends how big the top is )

So whilst a good solution...a destructive one.

Good MLS gaskets and big studs work very well too though
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Old 05-13-2021, 07:22 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Plenty of guys have run copper and stainless wire o-rings. Do you have a specific question about it?

I will say the labyrinth seal 'esque IAG system is a nice kit. Takes the Athena stainless ring just one stepped cut further
Don't have a specific question about it, just trying to see if I can find any users running them on sleeves. Yeah the firelock from IAG is nice but it does require special machining and IAG will not share specs on step depth on the block side and i'm not shipping the block out just for them to machine a groove for the rings. I want the best seal possible, using 14mm head studs power goal is eventually 800+. I do realize that people are using the cometic and copper wire on the deck as well as other mls gaskets but it i'm just trying to get as much info as possible before making a final decision.
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Old 10-21-2021, 07:38 AM   #157
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Default Milage on Cooper ring daily driver

Hi,

I would like to hear from anyone who has some daily driving miles on the cooper ring gasket (IAG groove style or standard no groove). I am currently using ARP 2000 1/2" studs, JE MLS gaskets and pushing slight coolant at 700 wheel. I heard the cooper ring gasket composite area of the gasket tends to fail / leak when used on daily driven cars.

My specific questions (for someone who is using the gasket on daily driven car)

-Mileage on engine with the cooper ring gasket
-Which cooper gasket used (IAG with groove in deck or non groove)
-Head studs used
-If failure occurred, what was failure mode (ring or composite)
-Wheel HP / boost

Thanks
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Old 03-03-2022, 04:42 AM   #158
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Hello,

I don't really post much, but I wanted to share some clarity for this thread. I have not noticed much info except personal accounts and hear-say/speculation...

Minus the couple that posted follow-ups with their builds..Thank you!

So here is what I have found.

Athena is an Italian based, Industrial machinery manufacturer known in large as, Athena group. They have been doing gaskets since 1954 mostly under the Guarnitauto name. Athena Parts is a division that umbrellas guarnitauto line and most importantly, Athena Racing Gasket Line.

Within the racing line they have a MLS and a CRG (Cooper Ring Gasket), there are others that are custom order and not seen in the catalogue
As mentioned, there are two lines that are somewhat readily available to consumers. The one line that we are mainly concerned about is the CRG. This is the line that has very little info and much speculation about. Below I will drop some intel to help you clarify the right gasket for you.

The catalogue I posted will have a little more detail for you to dive into or for further inquires, direct contact. There is also a datasheet attached for specs. But the bottom line is knowing which one to buy. The CRG is the one you want that will not require machining (easy answer). The part# will have 330 in the beginning. In particular, CR330041R is the one I have (ej207). Its deceiving if you don't know the 411 cause typically when they say copper you immediately think the color.... With these, that is not so, which sparked me on this investigation. lol!

The gasket is specifically described as a copper gasket supplied with an INOX steel ring. Yes, steel ring, which explains the color not being copper. The ring is ASIS 304 and does not require machining!! I will provide some insight to the complexity of machining to get you started... Professionals like IAG can chime in if they want to explain in detail, but it all boils down to the length of your longblock. When you deck your motor you essentially take away from the overall length, which is why IAG (LiC (iag just acquired...)) adjustable idler pulleys are used... Its to cope with the reduction of overall length of the longblock for the timing belt, since the belt links all 4 cams and is static in length. In the past, builds have compensated for this loss by various options which include, but not limited to, adjusting stroke or piston dimensions to maintain a target quench or compression.

The compression, like most know is very important. Especially, when we mess with measurements within the chamber. The change alters the dynamics of the engine's final outcome or performance expected. This is where OCD or when you are in the very high power output really matter (as you know tolerance holds a negative correlation to power output). Depending on the final dimensions of your longblock (post decking/machining) or what your comp ratio goals are, will dictate what path you take. With the CRG being 1.2mm thick it holds a substantial delta in the tolerance for overall length of the longblock. There is definitely more to the complex calculations post decking so I will leave that to the professionals to go deeper.

TL;DR
CR330041R or 330041R is the part number for the copper ring gasket (ej20)
It does not require machining unless specific to a target goal (comp ratio) for your build
The ring is ASIS 304 stainless steel. Steel has some varieties (4, i think) and this variety (i havent sourced this yet) may be the ASIS 304 CU, which is alloy stainless steel with higher amounts of copper. Here is the Datasheet
Gasket will have a Blue silicon surrounding the perimeter of gasket


*its important to note that the datasheet mentions to avoid long durations in 450 -850 degree C (842 F - 1562 F) to avoid embrittlement of the ring.

Hope this helps and if there are corrections please let me know

Last edited by ScoobySnack714; 03-03-2022 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 03-03-2022, 09:42 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by ScoobySnack714 View Post
Hello,

...*its important to note that the datasheet mentions to avoid long durations in 450 -850 degree C (842 F - 1562 F) to avoid embrittlement of the ring.

Hope this helps and if there are corrections please let me know

I could not find this note in data sheet but wonder what they consider a "long duration".


I am installing the Outfront cooper ring gaskets now and will be daily driving them in my build this summer (and beyond hopefully).
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Old 03-03-2022, 11:12 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by TurboQueef View Post
Dragging this one back to life... I took out a JE MLS .051 gasket on a V3 Outfront CD.. with 1/2 inch studs. Running E85 and a FP Red... I build and tune myself... and believe I caused the failure due to very aggressive timing curve (35psi: 17 at hit to 27 at top end)

The HG failure took out my V3 CD cases so I am working on a new build (V3 Outfront CD). I plan to upgrade the turbo to perhaps a FP XR Zero 86 HTZ HP target is ~680 at wheels

So.. I would like feedback on the following:

- Can folks running the copper fire rings (any version) post up reliability status.. include, mileage, power level, type of fire ring gasket used)

- Was my timing curve too aggressive ? Per road dyno it made lot of power, but coolant started to bubble in overflow at 17~27 timing curve. After consulting with a couple of friends (who eloquently told me I was F'ing crazy with the timing). I dropped it to 10 at hit 24 redline.. Power TQ dropped.. and after a month the LH gasket let go. The combustion gas that found it's way into the coolant system etched two deep caverns in the deck rendering it useless!

- For my new build (30~35psi, 680 AWHP on E85) are the copper ring gaskets required or will JE MLS fine?

Thanks

Jeff
Damn Jeff, that's a hotboi tune. no wonder you killed that JE gasket lol.
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Old 03-03-2022, 11:40 AM   #161
TurboQueef
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Originally Posted by Waddlz View Post
Damn Jeff, that's a hotboi tune. no wonder you killed that JE gasket lol.

Yes, timing was the issue back then.. however, last summer I was running the JE MSL 039's with 1/2" headstuds, a new turbo (6466). At 31psi, 10 degrees timing at hit 24 up top it was slightly lifting the head(s).. puked a tad o coolant and bubbled in the over flow after a solid 4th gear pull. I tore down the engine over winter, could not find any issues with the gasket, deck or heads. So.. I am trying the coopers and have them torqued to 140/135 (ARP2000 1/2" studs).
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Old 03-03-2022, 12:40 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by TurboQueef View Post
I could not find this note in data sheet but wonder what they consider a "long duration".


I am installing the Outfront cooper ring gaskets now and will be daily driving them in my build this summer (and beyond hopefully).
opps I made an edit on the link and used a more detailed one. Here is the link to the other datasheet https://www.aesteiron.com/304-cu-sta...omposition.pdf
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Old 03-03-2022, 12:42 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by TurboQueef View Post
I could not find this note in data sheet but wonder what they consider a "long duration".


I am installing the Outfront cooper ring gaskets now and will be daily driving them in my build this summer (and beyond hopefully).
Good luck with your build! Im smacking mine together as we speak lol
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Old 03-03-2022, 01:03 PM   #164
stevieturbo
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Originally Posted by TurboQueef View Post
Yes, timing was the issue back then.. however, last summer I was running the JE MSL 039's with 1/2" headstuds, a new turbo (6466). At 31psi, 10 degrees timing at hit 24 up top it was slightly lifting the head(s).. puked a tad o coolant and bubbled in the over flow after a solid 4th gear pull. I tore down the engine over winter, could not find any issues with the gasket, deck or heads. So.. I am trying the coopers and have them torqued to 140/135 (ARP2000 1/2" studs).

140lbft sounds extremely high for 1/2" ?
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Old 03-03-2022, 03:51 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
140lbft sounds extremely high for 1/2" ?

140 ft/lbs nets 80% yield of fastener, 150 nets 90%

140/135 was recommended by a friend who has had success at my power level (750 wheel)
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Old 03-03-2022, 05:50 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by TurboQueef View Post
140 ft/lbs nets 80% yield of fastener, 150 nets 90%

140/135 was recommended by a friend who has had success at my power level (750 wheel)
flirting with that sweet spot lol
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