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Old 01-06-2012, 02:05 PM   #276
este brawn
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we'll never know will we.
Easy there fun police; just speculating for conversation.

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the only thing you can say about Red Bull and the Bridgestones was that Vettel and Webber were much closer in qualifying on that tire.

Also Sebastian wasn't the only driver out there on Pirellis so everyone was forced to look after their tires...which is why on race pace the Red Bull was nowhere near as dominant as Vettel's quali performances would have us believe.
That's precisely my point. The fact that he couldn't (wouldn't?) push the Pirelli's, yet still easily pulled away from the field at most races was eye opening and appeared effortless. The RB7, more than most in my opinion, was held back by the Pirellis.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:06 PM   #277
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I saw este brawn harass Eddie Jordan. True story.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:20 PM   #278
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Also Sebastian wasn't the only driver out there on Pirellis so everyone was forced to look after their tires...which is why on race pace the Red Bull was nowhere near as dominant as Vettel's quali performances would have us believe.
I likely have some of this wrong, but very early on in the season, James Allen had a little article talking about the differences in the DRS and rear wing setup that Redbull and McLaren used. He illustrated that the Red Bull was using a steeper angle to the rear wing element, in comparison to the McLaren.

In qualifying, the drivers were able to trim out the DRS all around the track, not just in the DRS zone. So the Red Bull was able to run more trimmed out in that single flying lap, giving them an advantage.

Come race time, The Red Bull had a bit more rear wing around the track (excluding the DRS zone) so the McLaren had a bit of advantage in the race and was able to grab back some of that .5 to .75 second advantage Vettel always pulled out in qualifying.

I'll try to find the article.

Found it: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/0...e-in-the-race/

Last edited by Draken; 01-06-2012 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:49 PM   #279
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That is true, Red Bull went contrarian and optimized DRS for qualifying (remember they had it open exiting turn 8 at istanbul and nobody else did that) at the expense of it being less effective in the race.
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:25 PM   #280
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New Regulation for 2012:

9.8.2 At the race start and at pit stops, first gear must be used until the car is traveling 100kmh

Soooo, will there be a penalty if the driver short shifts on the launch due to wheel spin? I assume the spirit of the rule is to ensure the 1st gear ratio will take them to 100kph, but isn't that rule written so that penalties can be assessed if they choose to shift early?
I would think the ECU would just lock them into first.

I'm probably going to neither race. I have a cousin getting married during the Canadian GP weekend, and I don't have enough faith in Austin happening to order plane tickets for it
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:28 PM   #281
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That's precisely my point. The fact that he couldn't (wouldn't?) push the Pirelli's, yet still easily pulled away from the field at most races was eye opening and appeared effortless. The RB7, more than most in my opinion, was held back by the Pirellis.
why make pointless speculations about what the car might have done with a more durable tire? Every team had to cope with the same tire issues last year and as always some driver team combinations nailed it while others didn't. It's not that remarkable honestly.

Vettel alone among the front runners seemed able to unlock the Pirellis full potential from the off. Webber with the same equipment could not.

You simply have no idea how much or how little speed he had in reserve but it stands to reason he was winning at the slowest speed possible to save not only the tires but the car. Par for the course in F1. Interesting that the few times he was put under serious pressure he made mistakes...something I suspect he'll be working to fix over the holiday...like he figured out between 2010 and 2011 that NOT running into people while overtaking is better then bashing around like a Formula Ford rookie.

Good start, stellar first lap, build on that. While Sebastian at times made it look easy it still was nowhere near as dominant on race pace as Schumacher in early 2000s, or Williams in the early 1990s, or McLaren at the end of the 1980s.

Vettel never lapped the entire field while cruising...
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Old 01-06-2012, 06:08 PM   #282
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The FIA has clarified the rule governing how many moves a driver can make when defending a position.

Questions were raised following the Italian Grand Prix when Michael Schumacher appeared to make numerous moves across the track in order to prevent Lewis Hamilton from passing him, often returning to the racing line after defending. It was a previously unwritten rule that drivers are only allowed to make one move, and the FIA has now entered an article in to the sporting regulations to clarify the issue.

Article 20.3 reads: "More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off***8208;line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner."

Ultimately, this means that a driver can defend the inside line and then move back across to take a better line in to the following corner as long as they leave space for another car on the outside.
I wonder how this will work for chicanes..... if you take the inside defending corner, does that mean you have to apex a full car length away from the following corner to give the room the FIA rule requires you to give to the person you are defending against?
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Old 01-06-2012, 07:45 PM   #283
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I wonder how this will work for chicanes..... if you take the inside defending corner, does that mean you have to apex a full car length away from the following corner to give the room the FIA rule requires you to give to the person you are defending against?
Oh not to worry...we'll get a seasons worth of controversy as the stewards interpret this rule differently at every race.

F1: as much spectacle as sport
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:38 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Ferg
why make pointless speculations about what the car might have done with a more durable tire? Every team had to cope with the same tire issues last year and as always some driver team combinations nailed it while others didn't. It's not that remarkable honestly.
Is that what I was saying? No. I'm suggesting the car was significantly held back by the tires, more so than the others, yet was still one of the most dominant F1 cars in history.

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Originally Posted by Ferg
Vettel alone among the front runners seemed able to unlock the Pirellis full potential from the off.
Speculating. We don't speculate here apparently, discussion be damned.
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:38 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by falcongsr

Oh not to worry...we'll get a seasons worth of controversy as the stewards interpret this rule differently at every race.

F1: as much spectacle as sport
Quoted for truth.
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:42 PM   #286
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Is that what I was saying? No. I'm suggesting the car was significantly held back by the tires, more so than the others, yet was still one of the most dominant F1 cars in history.

Speculating. We don't speculate here apparently, discussion be damned.

So now it was significantly held back by the Pirellis? You're making this assumption that putting the Red Bull on a more durable tire would have handed it a greater advantage over everyone else...who would also be on a durable tire (control tires in F1) so where does that lead again? For all you know the Red Bull might have hated a harder tire. The Ferrari certainly did. So what? Some get it right, some don't.

Yes the Red Bull won a lot of polls and races this year in Vettel's hands but it was nowhere near as dominant a machine compared to the rest of the field as those I mentioned earlier. Sorry but it just wasn't, not on race pace, not even close.

Who's speculating? Vettel had one lap pace nailed last year while Webber didn't...and being something he's (Mark) is known for it's worth some thought. Why did Seb click and Mark didn't this past year? Damn good question that and I wonder if it goes back to Sebastian being the only driver to visit with Pirelli during the off-season. Obviously it didn't hurt

Whatever, nobody is trying to say the Red Bull wasn't the dominant car last year...results prove it was, but the degree of it's dominance has been way over blown, at least on Sundays.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:57 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by falcongsr

Oh not to worry...we'll get a seasons worth of controversy as the stewards interpret this rule differently at every race.

F1: as much spectacle as sport
Quoted for truth.
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:39 AM   #288
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How do most of you guys watch F1?

I will likely be sampling some of the BBC / Sky Sports coverage next year as I get really frustrated with the US coverage.

Here is a Sky Sports' first intro to their coverage: http://www.skysports.com/video/inlin...415542,00.html

pretty well done.
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Old 01-07-2012, 12:47 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by falcongsr
How do most of you guys watch F1?

I will likely be sampling some of the BBC / Sky Sports coverage next year as I get really frustrated with the US coverage.

Here is a Sky Sports' first intro to their coverage: http://www.skysports.com/video/inlin...415542,00.html

pretty well done.
If its a race I really want to watch Spa, Turkey, Suzuka, etc I get up early or stay up late to watch live. Most other races I download and watch later the same day. Races I hate Monaco, Valencia, just about all the races in the desert. I download and watch when I have nothing else to watch or do.
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Old 01-07-2012, 07:04 PM   #290
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I watch the streaming Speed coverage...and with no commentary it's like being in heaven...via laptop to bigscreen with an HDMI cable. Also worked great for all the ALMS races last year...well when they managed a steady stream it did.

very handy when there's a conflict, like Montreal GP and LeMans...tv tuned to Speed for LeMans while streaming F1.


-sorry about the silly clicky clicky noise, I was messing around with an app

Then it's the regular Speed broadcast which typically starts out fantastic for FP2 then gradually goes downhill the rest of the weekend. I always look forward to the races Varsha misses since Leigh DiffyDippy is worlds more professional when calling a race.

I enjoyed Matchett and Hobbs a lot more in 2011 then I have in the past for whatever reason although Steve still has the habit of always starting form absolute zero when describing ANY and EVERY topic.

We need a drinking game for every time Matchett says, "...and if you're new to F1..."

Last edited by Ferg; 01-07-2012 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 01-07-2012, 07:13 PM   #291
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I'm going to miss the BBC build ups. I haven't read up, but I hope Sky keeps the commercial free coverage.
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Old 01-07-2012, 08:20 PM   #292
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I'm going to miss the BBC build ups. I haven't read up, but I hope Sky keeps the commercial free coverage.
i highly doubt this. Sky is a for profit organization...
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Old 01-07-2012, 08:32 PM   #293
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...although Steve still has the habit of always starting form absolute zero when describing ANY and EVERY topic.
Agreed. I find Steve's technical "stories" to just be super long-winded. He often gets interrupted by on-track activities, and always feels the need to start over and attempt to finish his story.

I absolutely hate Varsha.
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Old 01-07-2012, 09:04 PM   #294
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Wait. Speed streams the races live without commentary?
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:12 AM   #295
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Wait. Speed streams the races live without commentary?
I believe that was FP2.

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I absolutely hate Varsha.
I dislike Varsha too, I hope he gets sacked soon.


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I wonder how this will work for chicanes..... if you take the inside defending corner, does that mean you have to apex a full car length away from the following corner to give the room the FIA rule requires you to give to the person you are defending against?
I don't believe so. I believe the issue they are stopping is drivers blocking a faster driver, who, entering the corner is still faster, and having the driver blocking push them off the road or force them to brake much earlier.

Based on that, I don't believe you have to give them room for the rest of the lap because of this blocking.

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Is that what I was saying? No. I'm suggesting the car was significantly held back by the tires, more so than the others, yet was still one of the most dominant F1 cars in history.



Speculating. We don't speculate here apparently, discussion be damned.
I believe his beef is the fact we can't prove it was held back by the tires more than the other cars, and there is no way to prove this either way. He doesn't like discussions like this since, in his view, its just a waste of time.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:14 AM   #296
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Love the Speed coverage, don't know why people seem to hate Varsha so much. Of course I've only ever seen F1 with Varsha and this current setup. I try to watch some of the races live, but my work schedule is all over the place so the DVR gets programmed to record all F1, MotoGP, WSBK, and AMA Super Bike events - practice, qualifying, the races. That way I can watch whenever I want.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:15 AM   #297
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Then it's the regular Speed broadcast which typically starts out fantastic for FP2 then gradually goes downhill the rest of the weekend. I always look forward to the races Varsha misses since Leigh DiffyDippy is worlds more professional when calling a race.

I enjoyed Matchett and Hobbs a lot more in 2011 then I have in the past for whatever reason although Steve still has the habit of always starting form absolute zero when describing ANY and EVERY topic.

We need a drinking game for every time Matchett says, "...and if you're new to F1..."
I just couldn't deal with Hobbs bias for everything Hamilton this year, as well as their concentrated ability to miss whatever was happening in the race and take multiple laps to realize what was going on. Matchett seems to hold personal grudges as well whenever anyone would contradict him on a technical issue.

I hope 2012 can be better for them, I loved them in 2006/2007.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:33 AM   #298
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Love the Speed coverage, don't know why people seem to hate Varsha so much. Of course I've only ever seen F1 with Varsha and this current setup. I try to watch some of the races live, but my work schedule is all over the place so the DVR gets programmed to record all F1, MotoGP, WSBK, and AMA Super Bike events - practice, qualifying, the races. That way I can watch whenever I want.
If you're not watching live, there's no reason to watch Speed when you could be watching BBC, IMO. Although this year, I'm probably going to switch between Sky and BBC to see who's offering the better coverage.

I thought Speed only streamed FP1 and FP3 online.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:33 AM   #299
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For you guys saying the BBC crew is better, no thanks. Brundle never shuts his mouth and is extremely opinionated, which would be fine if he still played the analyst part, but he doesn't. I haven't heard who Sky is going with, but hopefully Ben Edwards gets his chance, because he's long overdue for an F1 gig. I do agree that Speed's lineup is stale. Bob seems like he's checking out a little bit mentally. From what little I saw of Hobbs this year, he's not stuttering and repeating other people as much as 2010, but it's still annoying. Leigh Diffey, Tommy Kendall, and Matchett would be dynamite. Failing that, I'd love to see Marshall Pruett in Matchett's role. Just keep Scott Pruett away.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:37 AM   #300
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+1 for Leigh.
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