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Old 11-25-2004, 12:05 PM   #26
crazymikie
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He actually spoke to cobb about sending the ecu back for a reflash. They claim he's on the latest rev- I think differently since he's had the ECU reflashed long before the new maps came out.

He just has the AccessECU, no Accessport. He's not had good luck with cobb's service in general wrt this and some other problems.
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Old 11-25-2004, 12:37 PM   #27
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Many people have posted reasons and fixes for your problem. You don't want to fix your car, you want SOA to fix your problem. Fine, how about contacting SOA and stop pestering us with your singular issue?
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Old 11-25-2004, 12:47 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber
Many people have posted reasons and fixes for your problem. You don't want to fix your car, you want SOA to fix your problem. Fine, how about contacting SOA and stop pestering us with your singular issue?
Here, here!

....and I'll stop posting when this gets moved to the appropriate forum and stops being thrown in our faces unnecessairily, time and time again.

....and for those of you who have NOT read ALL the threads started by this thread starter, THAT is why some of us are sick of it....

This IS and always has been an engine management issue and belongs in that forum....not this one.....and HAS been discussed THERE ad naseum.

These threads are ridiculous.
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Old 11-25-2004, 01:18 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymikie
I did a few pulls this morning. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of road to work with, so I only got up to about 80mph in 3rd, but here's what I found.

It usually takes 2-3 seconds for AFR to go from stroich to rich after I floor it. This usually translates to running lean with full boost up to 5200rpm or so. I didn't see any knock at all and my knock correction was fine, too.
Mike
Mike,

That is exactly what we were seeing. What were your EGTs at and your injector duty cycles? The reason we believe you weren't seeing knock is because your fuel may be able to hold on longer before it "bursts". That, however, does not change the fact that REGARDLESS of fuel, the car shouldn't be running that lean that long under full boost and full throttle.
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Old 11-25-2004, 01:52 PM   #30
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didn't clark, azscoobie already clarify this? that this isn't something soa wanted to do, but was mandated by the epa to do? here's a quote from clark:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZScoobie
.......The EPA has mandated that there be a delay put in place for open loop switching. This saves fuel and reduces polution.............

Clark
that was from another thread.....why are people jumping on soa about fixing it, when it seems to be an epa issue?
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Old 11-25-2004, 06:16 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber
Many people have posted reasons and fixes for your problem. You don't want to fix your car, you want SOA to fix your problem. Fine, how about contacting SOA and stop pestering us with your singular issue?

in case you didn't see the the service slip in his other thread oh master of FAQing he has contacted Subaru about this problem and even had the ECU reading live data streamed to FHI... and this obviously isn't a singular problem if Bill Knose from I-Speed has seen 14.7 AFR on other '04 Subes....

The problem isn't Dan. It's the naive WRX owners who don't even know what to look for in finding problems with their car. This was a big prob with the STi when it came out and the problem was fixed, some might say the STi owners actually knew what they were hearing while most of the younger, less wealthy, wrex owners just think it's road debris tapping the underside of the car.
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Old 11-25-2004, 06:45 PM   #32
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It is a singular issue. I have an 04 and you don't see me complaining. It's much a do about nothing. You get knock, your car compensates. Some days/some gas more power, some days/some gas less power. The fact is he got a bum car that knocks, but also puts down a lot of power for a bum car. This happens and he continues to spend a lot of time and money on this issue. His probably will AT BEST be solved by SOA on an "as can" basis. I think he'd best be served fixing the problem rather than searching for an SOA based solution, driving the car like he stole it, or getting rid of it. This is a SINGULAR issue as no one else has this problem. The problem isn't the AFR, it's the pinging and pinging isn't a widespread issue. It was on the STi, so they took care of it. If it was an issue with the 04s (or other MY) SOA would take care of it too. Life sucks, odd ducks happen, roll with it.
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Old 11-25-2004, 08:56 PM   #33
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I see what you're saying but the comment by Bill about having datalogged numerous cars with ****ty factory A/F ratios is pretty disheartening. I know of quite a few other '04s that are having this problem... the fact that you have an '04 just leads me to believe that you got a "good" one. It's probably not a singular issue, probably closer to 25-possibly 50%. The average owner, like I said, probably just has no idea what they're hearing.

BTW foo... when are you getting into the SD area?
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Old 11-25-2004, 09:25 PM   #34
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I should arrive at the end of Feb/early Mar.

If what you say is true, why don't more people speak up? This is the one problem I have heard of about 04s.
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Old 11-25-2004, 09:46 PM   #35
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I dunno man. I mod the car I get det. I correct det. Make the car make more power and det comes back. Correct the det and then make the car make more power then I make more det.

Try 1 step colder plugs yet man. Oh and use Iridum regardless of what you hear. Throw out those NGK cooper POS. Try it and post back. I use step 8 now. That would be 2 steps colder than stock. That alone cured my det and allowed 100whp more. Of course I have det again but I am also making 450 hp with modest timing. So I back down 85whp over previous det point and more and no probs. I bet step 9 plugs would work too but I am happy with my power.

Everybody dets even with ECU flash. I use ECU-Tek. Skip the ECU snooping and try Iridum BRE7EIX. Still det? Try BRE8EIX plugs. $1500 dyno time and $800 in replaced parts and $30 in plugs fixed it. Good luck.
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Old 11-25-2004, 10:32 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmac02
... and this obviously isn't a singular problem if Bill Knose from I-Speed has seen 14.7 AFR on other '04 Subes....
I'm curious about the credentials of Bill Knose from I-Speed. Does he have a degree in Mechanical Engineering of any kind? Or does his claim to fame rely soley on access to EcuTeK software?
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Old 11-25-2004, 11:34 PM   #37
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My EGTS were hitting about 1550 degrees. This is the factory sensor in the uppipe. That's hotter than I would like to see, but I don't have any logs from before I installed the turboback, so it's hard to say whether or not the exhaust is making things worse. I've heard different opinions as to what removing the downpipe/downpipe cat has on EGTs.

I accidentally logged wastegate duty cycle instead of injector duty cycle. I shouldn't try to think in the morning. I'll see if I can get some more pulls tomorrow with injector duty cycle. I may have some old ones. I'll check.

Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by adg016
Mike,

That is exactly what we were seeing. What were your EGTs at and your injector duty cycles? The reason we believe you weren't seeing knock is because your fuel may be able to hold on longer before it "bursts". That, however, does not change the fact that REGARDLESS of fuel, the car shouldn't be running that lean that long under full boost and full throttle.
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Old 11-26-2004, 12:32 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber
It is a singular issue. I have an 04 and you don't see me complaining. It's much a do about nothing.
SINGULAR issue??? I have a list of 50 owners that IM and PM me telling about their det. woes. Just because YOUR ears and eyes don't hear about it or see it, doesn't mean it's not happening. And let the record show that SOA is dealing with this on other cars as well. You aren't wrong, you're DEAD wrong about the singularity of the issue.
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Old 11-26-2004, 12:33 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebeck
I dunno man. I mod the car I get det. I correct det. Make the car make more power and det comes back. Correct the det and then make the car make more power then I make more det.

Try 1 step colder plugs yet man. Oh and use Iridum regardless of what you hear. Throw out those NGK cooper POS. Try it and post back. I use step 8 now. That would be 2 steps colder than stock. That alone cured my det and allowed 100whp more. Of course I have det again but I am also making 450 hp with modest timing. So I back down 85whp over previous det point and more and no probs. I bet step 9 plugs would work too but I am happy with my power.

Everybody dets even with ECU flash. I use ECU-Tek. Skip the ECU snooping and try Iridum BRE7EIX. Still det? Try BRE8EIX plugs. $1500 dyno time and $800 in replaced parts and $30 in plugs fixed it. Good luck.
If you look at my service record, you'll see the dealer tried that already. No dice.
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Old 11-26-2004, 12:35 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmac02
I see what you're saying but the comment by Bill about having datalogged numerous cars with ****ty factory A/F ratios is pretty disheartening. I know of quite a few other '04s that are having this problem... the fact that you have an '04 just leads me to believe that you got a "good" one. It's probably not a singular issue, probably closer to 25-possibly 50%. The average owner, like I said, probably just has no idea what they're hearing.

BTW foo... when are you getting into the SD area?
\

Hmmm D, you went from aggressive bandit to appeasement pretty darn quickly.
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Old 11-26-2004, 12:35 PM   #41
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Wow... Scotty and Unibomber, from most of the post I read, you both seem to be very knowledgeable Suby gurus. You both give a lot of help, and a lot of good, well reasoned, information. My question is, why do you keep reading this thread? You obviously disagree with it, so why do you do something that causes you pain? I just keep picturing you both in a Monty Python movie hitting yourselves on the head with boards, or whipping yourselves. (does this show my age?) As to the "no other car has this problem" not only do I doubt this (see later in this post) but you can not ever prove an absolute negative. Unless you datalog all of the 04's and 05's produced. And the "this is an engine management issue," please tell me what other Subaru cars have this problem, or is it just 2.0L Turbo's? Lastly to the "this is a known issue" thing... So? What is the known solution, covered by warranty since it is a stock car with warranty?

Now, the "why I posted this carp" part. For the most part I was just watching this thread as an interesting thing, but not directly applicable. Then I took my car in to replace a fuel gage that was flaky. (Under warranty) When I got my car back, WOW! I had POWER like never before! Actually, after looking at it closer, I had power like before the summer. Hmmmm... Could I have had this problem as well? I never heard any knock, but the Scooby is so damn loud, I may have missed it. And I can bet that if I did, and I put on the exhaust I am looking at, SOA would have blamed it on the exhaust. I also bet that the pulled timing sneaks up on you, and a lot of people have this problem, and do not know. So, yes, this thread belongs here, and everywhere else until we can get a scope of the problem.

Now, once I figure out how to spot this problem with a ScanTool, I will look at cars around me for free to help find the scope of the problem. Any hints folks?
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Old 11-26-2004, 12:45 PM   #42
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Yep,

With even a catback exhaust of some sort, you could be hard pressed to actually hear the detonation. I'd indeed posit that many owners just don't know what's going on. The pulled timing does indeed sneak up on the car...that's a good way to put it actually. Thing is, it can pull all the timing it wants and it will probably still det. with the fueling as it is right now. Not to mention the fact that even if the timing pull solves det, it inevitably gives that timing back until it has a moderate to severe det event again, and again, and again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bofh
Wow... Scotty and Unibomber, from most of the post I read, you both seem to be very knowledgeable Suby gurus. You both give a lot of help, and a lot of good, well reasoned, information. My question is, why do you keep reading this thread? You obviously disagree with it, so why do you do something that causes you pain? I just keep picturing you both in a Monty Python movie hitting yourselves on the head with boards, or whipping yourselves. (does this show my age?) As to the "no other car has this problem" not only do I doubt this (see later in this post) but you can not ever prove an absolute negative. Unless you datalog all of the 04's and 05's produced. And the "this is an engine management issue," please tell me what other Subaru cars have this problem, or is it just 2.0L Turbo's? Lastly to the "this is a known issue" thing... So? What is the known solution, covered by warranty since it is a stock car with warranty?

Now, the "why I posted this carp" part. For the most part I was just watching this thread as an interesting thing, but not directly applicable. Then I took my car in to replace a fuel gage that was flaky. (Under warranty) When I got my car back, WOW! I had POWER like never before! Actually, after looking at it closer, I had power like before the summer. Hmmmm... Could I have had this problem as well? I never heard any knock, but the Scooby is so damn loud, I may have missed it. And I can bet that if I did, and I put on the exhaust I am looking at, SOA would have blamed it on the exhaust. I also bet that the pulled timing sneaks up on you, and a lot of people have this problem, and do not know. So, yes, this thread belongs here, and everywhere else until we can get a scope of the problem.

Now, once I figure out how to spot this problem with a ScanTool, I will look at cars around me for free to help find the scope of the problem. Any hints folks?
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Old 11-26-2004, 01:00 PM   #43
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The fact that Subaru, without announcing it, has offered reflashes without question to customers who complain about det shows that there's more than just one car out there that all this is happening to. And to the guy that wants to question Bill's credentials why don't you just go to I-Speeds website. Bill's been under the hood of more subies and tuned more ecus than you've probably ever seen. The comment asking if he has an engineering degree is irrelevant. You don't need a degree to realize that 14.7 a/f and 1700 deg. EGT readings are a bad thing. Many of the posters in this thread further prove that having Guru next to your name doesn't mean dick.

-Turd
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Old 11-26-2004, 01:07 PM   #44
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I even have to agree... this has no place in 2.0, and will just further increase the noise ratio for people searching for stuff, as this is not a mechanical issue, but a EM/T issue. It should be there.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
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Old 11-26-2004, 01:34 PM   #45
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This open/closed loop fueling problem you all speak of is actually intended by the manufacturer. Most turbocharged japanese autos have this logic. They call it A/F enrich delay. It's intended to lean out the fuel mixture (meaning keep it near stoich ~14.7) after heavy tip-in to inprove spool time. Notice that in all the datalogs, it only occurs after an upshift. Notice also that it only lasts at most 2-3 seconds.

I have tested vehicles with this logic active and deactivated, and it does make a difference in spool time and therefore works as intended. The problem with the knock occurring under this condition is due to aggressive ignition timing combined with "not so good" fuel.

I make no blatant statements saying whether or not the manufacter should fix this because I don't know the exact conditions under which everyone is experiencing this issue. I have a 02MY WRX and have never had a knocking issue. I always run 93 octane fuel from many different manufacturers. If I were experiencing knock under my running conditions, I would expect the manufacturer to take care of the problem by a reflash. Getting that reflash from the dealer would depend on how politely you approach the situation.

Take this info as you will...
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Old 11-26-2004, 01:45 PM   #46
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Edited. the content edited from this post was done in hindsite, it was unuseful for this disucssion.

I look forward to seeing how many people make the effort and have data logs performed on their stock car now that adg016 has pursued and identified the reason for his det and high EGT's. The problem has been isolated, if enough people obtain this information Subaru will have to address this situation for all '04 owneres and I specualte '05 owners as well.

adg016 do not let these few bitter and argumentative people sway your from your efforts. It is about 2% at most that are having difficulty with your endeavor, the rest of us commend you, agree with you, or are indifferent and skip to something else as any mature adult would do.

Last edited by subindiego; 11-27-2004 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 11-26-2004, 02:34 PM   #47
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I have a stock car, I have detonation, SOA needs to fix it... what else do I have to say?
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Old 11-26-2004, 03:02 PM   #48
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Here is a log I just took of a WOT run in 2nd gear shifting to 3rd for a bit. Saw two cops, so I only got this data, but it definitely seems similar. My EGTS got up to 1560, but would have probably gone higher if I had more road to work with.



Sorry about the small graph- I couldn't fit everything on one screen, so I put it in excel. I shifted the EGT values and Knock Correction values up so that they would be out of the way. If anyone wants them I can mail the larger graph or DD logs.

Thanks
Mike
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Old 11-26-2004, 03:33 PM   #49
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After reading this thread, I have to agree with just about everybody in some respect. Those logs show a CLEAR problem in the Fuel mapping. Under no circumstances should you be seeing full boost and still only 14:1 afr. I've done a fair share of tuning (via UTEC) myself and I can say that unless you have good afrs to start with, your timing will make very little difference in how well the car runs.

My 2002 WRX would always switch to closed loop (nice and rich) as soon as I got heavy on the throttle. Sure, this wasted some fuel sometimes, but heck, it was strong and bulletproof. My 2005STI also has no problem like these newer WRX - it behaves, (as far as the fuel curves are concerned) very much like my 2002 did.

I'll put in a vote for "dammit subaru you gotta fix this!"
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Old 11-26-2004, 03:40 PM   #50
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A smart man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhluhr
After reading this thread, I have to agree with just about everybody in some respect. Those logs show a CLEAR problem in the Fuel mapping. Under no circumstances should you be seeing full boost and still only 14:1 afr. I've done a fair share of tuning (via UTEC) myself and I can say that unless you have good afrs to start with, your timing will make very little difference in how well the car runs.

My 2002 WRX would always switch to closed loop (nice and rich) as soon as I got heavy on the throttle. Sure, this wasted some fuel sometimes, but heck, it was strong and bulletproof. My 2005STI also has no problem like these newer WRX - it behaves, (as far as the fuel curves are concerned) very much like my 2002 did.

I'll put in a vote for "dammit subaru you gotta fix this!"
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