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Old 02-09-2006, 08:54 AM   #1
bluemax_1
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Default Deadbolt Zilla Super16G, FP Evo3 16G, SBR Evo3 16G, EJ5-40T, turbochargers.com 16G?

Hi all!

Been browsing NASIOC for a few months reading all the info I could find and finally registered in the hopes you could all give me some advice/feedback from experiences with these turbo options.

As the title states, I'm trying to choose between: (incl.prices I've found)
Deadbolt Super 16G's - $1195 ea (includes Monster port, Black Xtreme turbine coating and Grey Ceramic comp coating)
Forced Performance WRX Evo3 16G's - $844 ea (+$95 porting)
SBR Evo3 16G's - $899 ea (+$60 turb outlet port, +$60 turb inlet port)
Momentum's EJ5-40T's - $759
Turbochargers.com 16G's - $599 (these are built off turbochargers.com's Evo3 16G clones made in Taiwan?)

Which of these would you recommend for a daily driver (set to 17psi - 22psi on 93 octane pump gas) that will also see some serious use on roadcourses and occasional dragstrip boosting to ~30psi? Any significant differences between them?

In addition, would/should I need to have them ported? What benefits have been seen here ported vs. unported?

It's also important to give you some info about my car. I have a '94 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 all-wheel drive, twin turbo (no unfortunately I don't have a Suby).

I'm actually looking at twin turbo upgrades for my VR-4. I have a set of custom headers made to bolt IHI/WRX VF-series bolt pattern turbos to my 6G72 engine. The engine has a fully built bottom end with forged Crower rods and a forged crank with forged Ross pistons. The block is slightly overbored to fit the Ross pistons and is now just about 3.1 liters (a hair under actually).

Currently, one of the hot setups for 3/S's (3/S = 3000GT/Stealth) is with twin MHI Evo3 16G's. Makes good power with decent spool. So far, they've already been proven to hold about 30+psi (at sea-level) to 7000-7500rpm, making about 640 - 670+ awhp on VP C16 race gas (on bone stock blocks, 3.0l, stock pistons, rods etc.) and 3/S's have hit 10's @ 130-140mph 1/4's (no NOS). To bolt them on though, requires TD05 headers (and all the supporting mods of course), since the stock headers are TD04. An example of what's been done with twin MHI Evo3 16G's on TD05 headers:
http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=313133
and a indication of the 6G72 engine's demand and what's needed to boost ~30psi:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm

Please note that we have confirmed that there are 3 different MHI TD05H-16G variants (not counting the TD05HR twin-scroll). There is the small 16G which uses a smaller compressor wheel (1.830/2.365), the large 16G with a bigger compressor wheel (1.892/2.680) and the Evo3 16G which has a lighter aluminum compressor wheel which slightly differs from the large 16G (Evo3-16G = 1.902/2.680) and has thinner blades. There is also some difference in the housing with the Evo3 being fractionally larger than the housing of the large 16G (can't remember if this was hot or cold side). The Evo3 turns out to spool a little faster and is also slightly more efficient than the older 'large16G'.

Well, I have the custom DNP headers for the IHI VF bolt pattern and was hoping to bolt some turbos on that WOULDN'T necessitate spending an additional $1k-$2k for a new set of headers and realized that there are now Evo3 16G options that bolt on to WRX's and should fit my headers. The headers I have were originally meant to be used with VF22's and have also been paired with twin PE1820's. Decent trap speeds with the PE1820's (130's mph) but awful lag.

The car is being built/tuned for mostly hardcore roadcourse use though, with maybe a little dragstrip use so I'm hoping to minimize lag. Hoping to test it on Road America after tuning. Already have a tuned suspension and 355mm Stoptech brakes.

So with that said, I'd like to hear the opinions of everyone who has experience with these turbo options, your recommendations and why. Comments from the vendors/manufacturers of these turbos are also welcome. Also, are the Evo3-16G's from Forced Performance and/or Slowboy racing built off MHI Evo3 wheels and housings? What about the turbine side? Are they hybrid retrofitted for the different bolt pattern/flanges (and if so, what housings were used if not the Evo3 TD05H) or did someone get MHI to actually produce them with the different flanges/bolt pattern?

Thanks in advance for any help and info.


Max
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Old 02-09-2006, 11:48 AM   #2
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Great post! If if were to buy a turbo right now I wouldn't know what to get. I am also debating between the same turbos. Here are some compressor maps to help you pick.

http://www.stealth316.com/0-frames.htm

That site is invaluable.
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Old 02-09-2006, 07:00 PM   #3
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Just to let you guys know, i talked to a guy at Turbonetics who said the u actually want some turbulent flow in the compressor housing so a polished compressor housing does not help....
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Old 02-10-2006, 07:13 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markuswelby
Just to let you guys know, i talked to a guy at Turbonetics who said the u actually want some turbulent flow in the compressor housing so a polished compressor housing does not help....
Well, I'm interested in what gains there are from porting, whether it's top-end gains or faster spool etc. Not interested in having anything polished really. Polishing the outside of the compressor housing is an aesthetic thing, although in physics theory, by increasing the reflectivity, it should have better thermal rejection of radiant heat but it's a mostly negligible performance gain with turbos. A better intercooler (and potentially ceramic insulation coatings) have a greater effect on the intake charge.

And yes, a smooth surface is not quite as good especially under high velocity airflow, due to earlier separation and transition of the boundary layer from laminar flow. Turbulent surface flow of the boundary layer reduces this effect, like the dimples on a golf ball.

Same reasoning for not making heads smooth and shiny (on the inside) when you're porting them.


Max
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Old 02-10-2006, 09:34 AM   #5
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this has been on my mind for the last 6 months and i have decided to take a shot and get the momentum 40t , i was set on the 18g and ppg gears, but i have recently changed my mind
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Old 02-10-2006, 11:09 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimtweet
this has been on my mind for the last 6 months and i have decided to take a shot and get the momentum 40t , i was set on the 18g and ppg gears, but i have recently changed my mind

I guess it just depends on when u want the monster boost to hit...
As for me, going to bolt up a VF39 to my WRX and leave it at that.
Good luck out there guys.
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Old 02-10-2006, 11:45 AM   #7
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I had the evo III 16g on my galant and it's pulled hella hard at 22 psi, this is with all the supporting mods as well..wish I knew I could have reused the evo III before I sold my gvr4 :-(
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Old 02-10-2006, 12:05 PM   #8
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Good thread. Peeps need this type of research! The 16G has powered the Mitsu world for years. We should take what they have done and run with it =).
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Old 02-10-2006, 12:55 PM   #9
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you should talk to the guys at Slowboy Racing. I just got a 16g package from them and had it protuned. It runs like a champ!!!
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Old 02-10-2006, 10:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimtweet
this has been on my mind for the last 6 months and i have decided to take a shot and get the momentum 40t , i was set on the 18g and ppg gears, but i have recently changed my mind
Let me know how the EJ5-40T goes. So far the only owner I've seen anything from is Nick (Nick4956?). would like to hear more results especially dynos and spool. May not be the same on my car but it'll give me an idea in comparison to other folks with the other turbos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ted dibiase
you should talk to the guys at Slowboy Racing. I just got a 16g package from them and had it protuned. It runs like a champ!!!
You got the small 16G right? Any reason why you didn't go with the Evo3-16G? Or were you simply not aware of it and the differences?

On the 3/S platform, there's been a difference between the small 16G and Evo3-16G. No one's hit 10's on the small 16G and they haven't hit the same power numbers.


Max
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Old 02-10-2006, 11:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemax_1
Let me know how the EJ5-40T goes. So far the only owner I've seen anything from is Nick (Nick4956?). would like to hear more results especially dynos and spool. May not be the same on my car but it'll give me an idea in comparison to other folks with the other turbos.


You got the small 16G right? Any reason why you didn't go with the Evo3-16G? Or were you simply not aware of it and the differences?

On the 3/S platform, there's been a difference between the small 16G and Evo3-16G. No one's hit 10's on the small 16G and they haven't hit the same power numbers.


Max

.....d00000d....sometimes it isn't all about power....it is about transient response and spool.....THAT is where a 'small' 16 delivers.

10's(or even low 11's) are a myth for 9x% of subaru drivers and ya gonna need a LOT more turbo than ANY '16' to get a GD into the 11's without heroic effort and nitrous
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Old 02-11-2006, 12:07 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty
.....d00000d....sometimes it isn't all about power....it is about transient response and spool.....THAT is where a 'small' 16 delivers.

10's(or even low 11's) are a myth for 9x% of subaru drivers and ya gonna need a LOT more turbo than ANY '16' to get a GD into the 11's without heroic effort and nitrous
Gotta admit, I haven't kept up on what Suby's are doing these days, but I'm not putting 1 of these in a Suby. I'm putting 2 of them in a 3000GT VR-4.

My comments about what Evo3-16G's have done so far as stated in my posts is in the 3/S community. Twin small and twin large 16G's were tried first and only recently (within the past year or so) have there been several people trying twin Evo3-16G's on the 3/S, and as it turns out, they don't really spool much slower than the small 16G and they've produced higher numbers than the small or large 16G's. As far as what numbers these have made on the 3/S platform, they're in my 1st post, but those have all been with DSM bolt pattern factory new MHI TD05H Evo3-16G's on TD05 headers. I've already got custom headers for Subaru bolt pattern turbos and one of the things I'm trying to figure out is if the Subaru Evo3-16G's perform the same as the factory MHI Evo3-16G's with the only difference being the bolt pattern flange.

My other question is, with the price differences, I'm just trying to figure out if there are any advantages to going with Evo3-16G's (or the equivalent) from one vendor vs another.


Max
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Old 02-11-2006, 01:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemax_1
Gotta admit, I haven't kept up on what Suby's are doing these days, but I'm not putting 1 of these in a Suby. I'm putting 2 of them in a 3000GT VR-4.

My comments about what Evo3-16G's have done so far as stated in my posts is in the 3/S community. Twin small and twin large 16G's were tried first and only recently (within the past year or so) have there been several people trying twin Evo3-16G's on the 3/S, and as it turns out, they don't really spool much slower than the small 16G and they've produced higher numbers than the small or large 16G's. As far as what numbers these have made on the 3/S platform, they're in my 1st post, but those have all been with DSM bolt pattern factory new MHI TD05H Evo3-16G's on TD05 headers. I've already got custom headers for Subaru bolt pattern turbos and one of the things I'm trying to figure out is if the Subaru Evo3-16G's perform the same as the factory MHI Evo3-16G's with the only difference being the bolt pattern flange.

My other question is, with the price differences, I'm just trying to figure out if there are any advantages to going with Evo3-16G's (or the equivalent) from one vendor vs another.


Max
Hey Max,

I don't have any input but am in the same boat as you and 1/3 of the people on this board. I wanted to say welcome to the club. Nothing unfortunate about not having a Suby. Sounds like you have a nice ride on your hands!
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Old 02-11-2006, 04:32 AM   #14
bluemax_1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjimpreza
Hey Max,

I don't have any input but am in the same boat as you and 1/3 of the people on this board. I wanted to say welcome to the club. Nothing unfortunate about not having a Suby. Sounds like you have a nice ride on your hands!
Thanks for the welcome. As I mentioned, I've been browsing this forum for some time now, and finally registered so I could ask all the folks here for some recommendations based on their opinions and experiences. Seemed like there were several variations available of the same thing that people have tried or were looking at so I figured I'd start a thread to consolidate info and experiences that might help make the decision easier for me and perhaps others too.

At one time, I was considering the VF34 or APS SR30 as options, but after searching and reading the comparisons between the IHI VF-series on this forum and other Subaru forums, it seemd like the SR30 was about equivalent to a VF34 but 150% of the price. When searching about VF34 vs 16G, it seems like people have gotten similar spool, but the 16G's have been tried and tested on Mitsu's for quite some time and their performance and durability are quite well known. Given the background of the TD05-16G's and the wealth of experience on the Mitsubishi platforms with the 16G's, specifically the Evo3-16G, I figured I'd go with the Evo3-16G's or some variation of it.

I still haven't completely ruled out the possibility of trying a twin T3/T4 setup with Turbonetics' ceramic ball-bearing turbochargers. I've heard a lot about how fast those can spool and that their bearing design can withstand thrust loads 50 times greater than a journal bearing, but I'm still trying to get a little more info on how well those would work with my engine. At this time, the twin Evo3-16G has proven itself to be quite a good performer at quite a nice price. The Subaru pattern Evo3-16G's aren't quite as cheap as the DSM pattern factory MHI Evo3-16G's which can be found for about $500, but using the Suby version with the headers I already have will still be cheaper than going with the DSM version and buying new headers.


Max
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Old 02-12-2006, 07:23 PM   #15
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bump for more info
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Old 02-12-2006, 09:45 PM   #16
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The 3/S's trannies can handle that type of power???
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:46 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MomoWRX
The 3/S's trannies can handle that type of power???
It depends on what exactly you do wth the car and which generation it is. The 1st gens/1G (91-93) had a notorious weak link in the aluminum transfer case (the 3/S is built off an inherently FWD chassis. For AWD, there is a transfer case and VCU that transfer and control torque to the rear axle).

In fact, the 1G transfer case is weak enough that it was possible to snap the output shaft bonestock or BPU with too many hard launches on grippy tires. There is now a aftermarket 300M output shaft that hasn't been destroyed yet, but the older aluminum case itself can split in two under very hard launches usually at a track with VHT.

For the 2G ('94-'99), Mitsu learned and used an iron transfer case. Much stronger than the aluminum one but not indestructable. Some people HAVE managed to destroy several of the 2G cases, but those people are few and far between. One wonders how they drive/launch and whether they're fond of sidestepping the clutch. One sidestep bone stock, can snap the 1G output shaft or crack a case, the 2G can't handle sidesteps that much better.

However, given a good clutch, it's possible to launch the hell out of these cars. There are a few guys out there with pretty much stock drivetrains who've many passes at the track with 1.5 - 1.7 60-ft times without breaking anything, inlcuding some of the folks who've run 10's turbos only and nitrous.

Quite a few 2G's with 550-650+ awhp on stock drivetrains. The most common drivetrain upgrade on a 2G is a carbonfiber driveshaft (I've got one), but not because the stocker breaks or can't handle it. It's simply a weight/rotating mass reduction mod. Makes the car feel more torquey and responsive (and some believe it also reduces shockloading on the transfer case) and it aids acceleration especially in higher gears or at lower rpms.

The trannies themselves though aren't too bad when it comes to handling power. There are a few folks who've managed to split a tranny, but there are also more than a few with 600+ HP whose trannies are fine. One of the problems with the tranny though is worn synchros. I'd say the majority of the worn synchro problems come from improper shifting and shifter abuse.

This Getrag tranny definitely isn't fond of powershifting. It can be done and there's a guy who's made 200+ passes powershifting and his tranny is still fine. For most mortals (and that guy isn't), powershifting is setting a clock on the synchros. For some, the first attempt at powershifting results in wiped synchros, for others, it may take a few passes. Another possible problem is a worn clutch slave cylinder not fully disengaging the clutch and allowing it to drag when shifting. This wears synchros really fast. Downshifting on the street from high rpm's without doubleclutching also accelerates the wear on the synchros.

With the exception of a clutch not fully disengaging, the folks who can shift very well aren't prone to killing trannies. I think user error/abuse plays a greater part. Of course, get to the even higher HP's and the drivetrain shows severe problems. One of the guys making 800+ awhp has snapped countless transfer cases at the strip. On the street, he's managed to smoke lots of cars including rwd cars making way more power, simply because he has the advantage of the AWD launch on the street, and the tires spin on the street greatly reducing the shockloading. But everytime he's taken it to a track.... *snap*.

All in though, drag racing especially on a prepped track and on drag radials/slicks is much harder on the drivetrain. Road racing puts different stresses on the car, but not quite the same way. People usually split transfer cases on dragstrips, not road courses.

BTW, the completely stock 6g72 block handles 600+ awhp quite well. One guy even ran his car daily on race gas with a high 700 awhp tune for 2 years before blowing the stock block heading for 800+awhp. Although there have been issues with this engine for spinning rod bearings, it isn't directly related to power output up to the mid-600 all wheel HP level. These engines will spin bearings if you dent the oilpan (the pickup is so close to the base of the oilpan even what seems like a minor dent can significantly reduce oil flow). Any oil contamination (from running a car pig rich and diluting the oil with fuel). Low oil level, or not changed at proper intervals. Bad tune causing detonation and hammering the bearings, etc.

Otherwise, if you're running on a good tune with no problems in the oiling system, a stock bottom end and stock drivetrain (with uprated clutch) holds just fine.


Max

Last edited by bluemax_1; 02-13-2006 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 02-13-2006, 09:52 AM   #18
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wow good write up......Thanks
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Old 02-13-2006, 02:49 PM   #19
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^^ yup. great post. Why can't Subaru's 5MT take repeated 1.6 60 foots? I understand the 1-2 2-3 3-4 shift can kill the synchros but come on. It seems like every other AWD car's gearbox holds up just fine. I would rather fix a driveshaft than replace and rebuild a gearbox. i don't know about you.

The driving style that bluemax_1 has described would be considered extremely bad to practice on a FHI 5MT.
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