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Old 06-05-2010, 04:10 AM   #1
SueBaroo
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Default Questions on the "Subie Newbie Tuning Guide"

I read BadNoodle's "Subie Newbie Tuning Guide" and have a few questions that will also help other "tuners"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Page 24
***8226; Set your WGDC map to all 0, so you only run waste gate pressure for boost.
***8226; Set your OL fueling to ~10.2 for tmic and 10.5 for fmic to run rich
***8226; Lower your timing in the WOT areas by about 4 degrees.
When setting OL Fueling, where in the Primary OL Fueling table do I change this? Obviously you can't put it in every cell. Unless I'm wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Page 26-27
FIND YOUR MECHANICAL PROPERTIES.
1) Make sure you removed some timing, are running rich, and all your WGDCs are set to 0. You are doing this to test the mechanical efficiency of the turbo and wastegate first. So we want to see how the turbo and wastegate behave without any help from the ECU and boost controller.
2) Drive around logging your
a. RPM
b. Throttle Position,
c. Relative Pressure corrected (boost)
d. FBKC to make sure you're not knocking.
- Is BadNoodle basing this off the stock map?
- If I already have a Stage 2 map, how much timing should I remove for it to be safe? 4*?
- I'm guessing by him saying "make sure you are running rich", it pertains to my first questions above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Page 27
TUNE TO REACH YOUR TARGET BOOST
The best thing to do for now would be to look through other people's boost maps for the turbo you are running. This is just to get a general idea of what other people are doing. Not that you will follow their lead, but you want to look though a couple maps and notice the different patterns. Like where they make max boost, what their max boost is, and the general flow of the map. It's just to give you insight into how your boost map will likely progress. We will take the boost map we made previously, add more boost to it, and adjust the WGDCs to make the car reach that boost.
1) Pick a spot in the 100% column and guess what RPM you want full boost at. Bigger turbo's spool later, but for now, this is just a guess.
2) Enter about 75% of your theoretical target boost in that cell. We're only going to try and reach 75% of our theoretical max boost for now just to make sure everything is working properly. Once everything is setup to reach this goal, getting 100% should be easy.

3) So put in the value and interpolate the table horizontally and vertically from that cell and make sure your target boost values are a smooth progression to your max boost.
How do I interpolate it? IE: A stock TD04 has been able to reach 20psi on more than a few cars. So if my Target Boost is 18psi, 75% of that would be 13.5psi.

So I found my 75%, obviously I should not target that throughout the every cell in the Target Boost table. I know at low RPM's and low G/S that obviously it shouldn't target rich. Unless I'm wrong about that also. What is a rule of thumb on how to make this table from scratch?



I'm trying to learn the "rules of thumb" for tuning from scratch. I already have a stage 2 map I am working on, but want to learn more in-depth and possibly make my own MAP from scratch.
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:17 AM   #2
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I think you need to spend a LOT more time reading the basics of engine tuning before worrying about the details of making your own map. Once you understand what exactly the maps are doing, it becomes much clearer where you make changes. It is good that you are asking questions here and being safe, not wanting to make changes blindly. But there is a lot more to read first besides the Guide before you should consider yourself set to make some changes.
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Old 06-05-2010, 09:55 AM   #3
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That is just a guide and not 100% "the rules". As far as the OL fueling I'm sure he means redline. Unless you have done a turbo swap there is no reason to remove timing,richen the fueling or reduce the boost on a stage 2 tune just to re-tweak it. You have not even stated what your doing or your goal. I agree with what was said above. If your this confused you really need to read more. Most people tuning their own WRX's have been turning wrenches and tuning other types of engines/cars (fuel injected or carburetor) for years/decades.
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Old 06-05-2010, 02:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MConte05 View Post
I think you need to spend a LOT more time reading the basics of engine tuning before worrying about the details of making your own map. Once you understand what exactly the maps are doing, it becomes much clearer where you make changes. It is good that you are asking questions here and being safe, not wanting to make changes blindly. But there is a lot more to read first besides the Guide before you should consider yourself set to make some changes.
I'm on RomRaider daily and here daily readying FAQ's, How-To's etc... I have a book NSFW recommended. I already understand how the timing table, fueling, boost,works and such (to an extent). Most of these resources don't explain the how-to in the tuning guide. IE Interpolate the boost.

Does no one want to explain it at all? Seems like everyone is always saying "you need more reading".....yet I am.
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Old 06-05-2010, 02:40 PM   #5
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Explain what? You want some one to sit down and just explain to you how to tune every part of the ROM? Are you more special than everyone else? Welcome to Opensource Tuning.....you want all the answers? Take an EFI 101 class............

http://www.efi101.com/
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Old 06-05-2010, 08:50 PM   #6
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Wow I feel the love.

No you don't have to explain it all to me, I'm just asking what I don't understand.
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Old 06-05-2010, 10:17 PM   #7
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I recently took EFI101 and enjoyed it. More of Theory and less about tuning.

Jeff Hartmans book is awesome .
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Old 06-06-2010, 09:48 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SueBaroo View Post


Wow I feel the love.

No you don't have to explain it all to me, I'm just asking what I don't understand.
I have seen your posts both on here and Romraider. You act like nobody is answering your questions when they are. People keep telling you to read because they can clearly see you need to learn to crawl before you can walk. All the information is 100% on Romraider and in the Engine Management forum here. It's funny how everybody expects everyone else to always step up do the work for them. People help them and then when they don't they get butt hurt. The search function is fixed and working very well now on this site. Now you can get pissy for me telling you that but what you don't understand (and most other people) is by searching you learn probably 300% faster due to all the information you encounter trying to find the actual information you want. People in this day and age want everything right now. I mean RIGHT now. You kind of need to have the ability to actually find and locate information on your own to some degree. You also just have to sit down and play with the software and figure stuff out on your own,the same as everybody else did. Not everybody uses Badnoodle's Guide. In fact when he wrote it he himself was just learning to tune. I would say 50%-75% don't use it. He did a good job on it but it is strictly for beginners to to get a general idea/theory of one way to go about tuning.

Last edited by quazimoto; 06-06-2010 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 06-06-2010, 10:01 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorne View Post
I recently took EFI101 and enjoyed it. More of Theory and less about tuning.

Jeff Hartmans book is awesome .
I think the EFI102 has more "hands on" as far as tuning. Greg Banish's book is quite good too. Jeff Hartman's Turbocharging Performance Handbook is written quite nicely as well.
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Old 06-06-2010, 11:38 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SueBaroo View Post
When setting OL Fueling, where in the Primary OL Fueling table do I change this? Obviously you can't put it in every cell. Unless I'm wrong.
Take a log of your car, once you see about 10psi look at the engine load and engine speed. Then set your OL fueling map to a richer(I do not recommend as rich as he says, try 10.8-11.0 for starters) AFR in those areas all the way up to the highest load and rpm cells in your map.

- Is BadNoodle basing this off the stock map?
- If I already have a Stage 2 map, how much timing should I remove for it to be safe? 4*?
- I'm guessing by him saying "make sure you are running rich", it pertains to my first questions above.
It all depends on the car and the mods. Removing too much timing will result in really high EGT's and poor throttle response. 4* is a pretty safe bet though.

If you already have a tune, why are you removing timing? It SHOULD be set pretty well if you have a decent tune on the car.



How do I interpolate it? IE: A stock TD04 has been able to reach 20psi on more than a few cars. So if my Target Boost is 18psi, 75% of that would be 13.5psi.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/interpolate Look at number 2.
If you think you should be running your TD04 at 20psi, you need to learn to read compressor maps, or else you better have a damn good IC and/or E85/race gas.
With that being said, you have a TON more reading to do. All the questions you asked have been answered before. Also, click the map help buttons in RomRaider. If you don't understand what the map help says, you shouldn't be adjusting the table until you can figure it out.

Andy
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elevenpoint7five View Post
With that being said, you have a TON more reading to do. All the questions you asked have been answered before. Also, click the map help buttons in RomRaider. If you don't understand what the map help says, you shouldn't be adjusting the table until you can figure it out.

Andy
Thanks for your reply. I was thinking there was a tool on RR to interpolate like the MAF rescaling tool.

I have an APS 525 FMIC. I'm not actually trying to run 20psi. It was just an example.

Quote:
Take a log of your car, once you see about 10psi look at the engine load and engine speed. Then set your OL fueling map to a richer(I do not recommend as rich as he says, try 10.8-11.0 for starters) AFR in those areas all the way up to the highest load and rpm cells in your map.
So I start at 10psi...I've been searching all weekend and didn't see any information on this. If there is, it's well hidden in the threads.

Quazimoto, I understand where you're coming from. I have searched and some of the questions I seek aren't fully answered. I will do my best in searching.

I have Jeff Hartman's book and currently reading it. I will probably get the Engine Management: Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish as well.
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:47 PM   #12
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Thorne, do you recommend taking the EFI 101 first? Or 102?
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SueBaroo View Post
Thorne, do you recommend taking the EFI 101 first? Or 102?
Seriously? Holy crap..............what part of "learning to crawl before you walk" did you not understand? Go to EFI101.COM AND READ THE CLASS MATRIX. Considering you think rescaling your MAF will help get rid of your boost oscillations then yes you would take EFI101 before EFI102 as 102 is the "advanced" course. You are far from "advanced"...........
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Old 06-07-2010, 01:30 PM   #14
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I will look into it. Didn't particularly read the class outlines.
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Old 06-07-2010, 01:55 PM   #15
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man Quazi, hard on the guy (or girl). Suebaroo, welcome to the wolves den....
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Old 06-07-2010, 02:05 PM   #16
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Thanks fbu. Your help on RR is great.

It's alright. Don't really care other than the drive of wanting to learn to tune. I've been just trying to gather the information that's not completely outlined in threads that have talked about my questions.
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Old 06-07-2010, 04:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SueBaroo View Post
So I start at 10psi...I've been searching all weekend and didn't see any information on this. If there is, it's well hidden in the threads.
Eh, it's just an arbitrary target because you're only at a stage 2 setup. 10psi isn't going to hurt anything if the AFR's are not dialed in perfectly. There is no set psi that you should start richening up at.

Andy
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Old 06-07-2010, 06:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elevenpoint7five View Post
Eh, it's just an arbitrary target because you're only at a stage 2 setup. 10psi isn't going to hurt anything if the AFR's are not dialed in perfectly. There is no set psi that you should start richening up at.

Andy
Thanks for the help. My LC-1 should be arriving tomorrow (amazon ftw), so I'll be able to dial everything in now
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:52 PM   #19
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Wow, just found this thread so I thought I'd answer:

When writing the guide, I planned for the worst. You don't have to follow anything, a lot of it is a bit over the top in terms of safety. Yes, you don't have to run that rich, remove timing, or all boost IF you've done everything correctly mechanically. But if you did something stupid liked hooked up the boost controller ncorrectly, then taking all those safety precautions will help to save your engine while you go for a spin and realize that's something is wrong.

Hope that clears it up
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:58 PM   #20
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??? delete post please

Last edited by wadecarlson; 06-28-2010 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:47 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SueBaroo View Post
How do I interpolate it? IE: A stock TD04 has been able to reach 20psi on more than a few cars. So if my Target Boost is 18psi, 75% of that would be 13.5psi.
about interpolation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_interpolation


You cant do interpolation in romraider......but ecuflash has it.

Open up base timing in ecuflash. go view -> graph

hilight a column or row. then go file -> interopolate horizontally (row) or interpolate vertically (column)

You will see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11.75
Then set your OL fueling map to a richer(I do not recommend as rich as he says, try 10.8-11.0 for starters) AFR in those areas all the way up to the highest load and rpm cells in your map.
again.....11.75 and i differ here.....but im pretty sure i've tuned quite a few more california 91 octane cars than him....

i target 10.5-10.8 on cali 91 oct......we need the fuel to be able to run the timing necessary to keep the EGT's down.

he can do whatever he wants on 93 octane and e85.....but "starting" at 11:1 on 91 oct isnt really a good idea.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:49 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
about interpolation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_interpolation


You cant do interpolation in romraider......but ecuflash has it.

Open up base timing in ecuflash. go view -> graph

hilight a column or row. then go file -> interopolate horizontally (row) or interpolate vertically (column)

You will see what happens.



again.....11.75 and i differ here.....but im pretty sure i've tuned quite a few more california 91 octane cars than him....

i target 10.5-10.8 on cali 91 oct......we need the fuel to be able to run the timing necessary to keep the EGT's down.

he can do whatever he wants on 93 octane and e85.....but "starting" at 11:1 on 91 oct isnt really a good idea.
I'll have to check out that ECUFlash thing, I didn't know that! Thanks!

Yeah, on Cali piss gas, err on the side of richer like Ron says.

Andy
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:13 PM   #23
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Ecuflash Is solely what I use to
Modify roms. It runs way faster with the individual def files and it graphs and does interpolation nicely too.

The only thing I use romraider for is copy/pasting the tables into airboy.
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:54 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quazimoto View Post
I have seen your posts both on here and Romraider. You act like nobody is answering your questions when they are. People keep telling you to read because they can clearly see you need to learn to crawl before you can walk. All the information is 100% on Romraider and in the Engine Management forum here. It's funny how everybody expects everyone else to always step up do the work for them. People help them and then when they don't they get butt hurt. The search function is fixed and working very well now on this site. Now you can get pissy for me telling you that but what you don't understand (and most other people) is by searching you learn probably 300% faster due to all the information you encounter trying to find the actual information you want. People in this day and age want everything right now. I mean RIGHT now. You kind of need to have the ability to actually find and locate information on your own to some degree. You also just have to sit down and play with the software and figure stuff out on your own,the same as everybody else did. Not everybody uses Badnoodle's Guide. In fact when he wrote it he himself was just learning to tune. I would say 50%-75% don't use it. He did a good job on it but it is strictly for beginners to to get a general idea/theory of one way to go about tuning.
quazimoto is a jerk with no good information just ignore him dude.
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:44 PM   #25
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wade....with all due respect.....you are on here asking for maps....and pm'ing people for maps and at the same time posting in peoples threads trying to give out advice.

just take a step back and read for about 6 months, do some testing on your own car and form a solid foundation of knowledge before you try to give advice to others.

and you pm'd me about a map. my view on this is kind of weird. I browse the OS forums and try and help people. if i help them and they know im a vendor on here (phatbotti tuning) they usually thank me and send a little money to me for the help. so i will tune peoples cars for free that have posted looking for help....but i really dont like just sending people maps for free that pm me. its kinda weird....but it makes sense to me.
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