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Old 07-15-2019, 08:01 PM   #1
pazzoduc
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Default Wheel Width for Track Use?

My 06 project WRX has sustained non-repairable wheel damage. This means I'm going to have to source a new set, the wheels I have are apparently too damn rare to find a replacement.

This puts me at a cross roads. Do I stick with the wheel size I have that stays within the fenders (18x8.5 @45) or opt for flares and wide wheels. Still learning subaru's and don't really know how these cars respond to wide I.E. 11" wheels.

I don't really want to buy wheels and tires now only to buy them again in the future. Buy once cry once eh? I'm not opposed to spending the money if the benefits are there.

My motorsports background is motorcycle racing. The car racing thing is new to me and I'm just getting started. I don't currently have a plan to attack a specific class of racing. Part of it for me is just enjoying building a capable machine.

Currently the car is swapped to an STI drivetrain with 114.3'x5's, the 6spd, dccd, Spiider, Coilovers, ALK, Hi caster control arms, all the drive line and suspension bushings changed to superpro etc. Goal is a track worthy car. Currently engine is running 350whp/340wtq with a goal this fall/winter of going to 450-500ish. Mods with wheel choice will include carbon drive shaft and reducing front end weight (oswald). Trying to make good decisions that enhance track performance.

What say you?
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:35 AM   #2
subydude
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I'd say buy a cheaper set of 17x9's. Cheaper tires available there in a 255/40/17 and more money for other mods. 11's and 12's work, but the work to fit them is pretty considerable and the tires are a lot more too.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:11 AM   #3
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The "current" set I have is 18x8.5 with 255's seated quite well.
Yes cost is a factor, but I guess what I'm really asking is if the chassis and car in general would see a large benefit to the wide set-up? The car isn't going to win any car shows... It's 2-3 different colors of black with some rattle can effect thrown in. LOL. Flaring wouldn't be for looks, trust me.

Been looking around at what local guys run. Wide as possible in the stock configuration. Corvettes, mopar, mustangs, miatas, brz's etc. The only Subies I have seen are running in the stock fenders. Except there is one 04 STI running 11's. Of course people like to justify their own decisions, and he says the wide set-up made a dramatic difference. Poor for street driving with added bump steer, but the track benefits were worth it. Or so he says.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:54 AM   #4
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There's a lot of other questions that would need to be answered before I'd say go wide. Personally, in autox I run 18x12's and believe wider is better, but for track driving it's more of a "it depends" type of answer. The car will benefit, yes, but you'll see other issues. You shouldn't see bump steer issues unless you change the roll center. You would see scrub radius issues, but those are not that big on track, or not as big as people say.

If cost is an issue the 17" tires are a lot cheaper, and there's a lot of 9's out there, and with a 255 you'll get a bit more feedback from the tire vs an 8.5 (not a lot).

As you add rubber, you generally add grip, which adds body roll, so you can run mildly stiffer springs, and now you're going faster so you'll see the brake system take a bit more of a beating, and then you'll see aero start to come into play which again adds speed and starts the cycle over again. Not to mention the more grip you have the more differentials come into play.

EDIT: I didn't mention engine oiling issues either. As grip goes up, so do the oiling system problems. Running 200 TW, no real aero, and not as wide of tires reduces lateral grip (obviously) and most people don't see as much oil starve on track. On big tires, aero, lots of optimized bits, you'll start to see people burn up engines as they put more G loads through the car.

All of that to say, grip is good, more grip is better, but it's part of a system so just adding really wide rubber isn't going to make the car super fast. It will go faster, but you'll start running into other issues and until you develop it as a system you won't be able to really take advantage of 10's on up. Hence my recommendation for 9's and 255's while you get the rest of the car sorted.

Last edited by subydude; 07-16-2019 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:03 AM   #5
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Now that's a darn fine answer right there! Thx Subydude.
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:22 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
There's a lot of other questions that would need to be answered before I'd say go wide. Personally, in autox I run 18x12's and believe wider is better, but for track driving it's more of a "it depends" type of answer. The car will benefit, yes, but you'll see other issues. You shouldn't see bump steer issues unless you change the roll center. You would see scrub radius issues, but those are not that big on track, or not as big as people say.

If cost is an issue the 17" tires are a lot cheaper, and there's a lot of 9's out there, and with a 255 you'll get a bit more feedback from the tire vs an 8.5 (not a lot).

As you add rubber, you generally add grip, which adds body roll, so you can run mildly stiffer springs, and now you're going faster so you'll see the brake system take a bit more of a beating, and then you'll see aero start to come into play which again adds speed and starts the cycle over again. Not to mention the more grip you have the more differentials come into play.

EDIT: I didn't mention engine oiling issues either. As grip goes up, so do the oiling system problems. Running 200 TW, no real aero, and not as wide of tires reduces lateral grip (obviously) and most people don't see as much oil starve on track. On big tires, aero, lots of optimized bits, you'll start to see people burn up engines as they put more G loads through the car.

All of that to say, grip is good, more grip is better, but it's part of a system so just adding really wide rubber isn't going to make the car super fast. It will go faster, but you'll start running into other issues and until you develop it as a system you won't be able to really take advantage of 10's on up. Hence my recommendation for 9's and 255's while you get the rest of the car sorted.

So I've been planning on picking up an extra set of wheels do to some track days and AX in my '05 WRX wagon on stock suspension. I'm planning on swaybars before then as well.

You don't think I'd see any oiling issues running 225ish RE71R or other sticky 200TW 'street' tire? Probably sticking to 7.5"-8.5" rim width to stay on the cheaper side of most used wheels in the area. My other car has seen years of track duty and AX on 200TW tires with a stock pan/oiling system, and been fine, but certainly not an apples to apples comparison.

Last edited by WhiteZombie; 07-22-2019 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 07-22-2019, 01:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteZombie View Post
So I've been planning on picking up an extra set of wheels do to some track days and AX in my '05 WRX wagon on stock suspension. I'm planning on swaybars before then as well.

You don't think I'd see any oiling issues running 225ish RE71R or other sticky 200TW 'street' tire? Probably sticking to 7.5"-8.5" rim width to stay on the cheaper side of most used wheels in the area. My other car has seen years of track duty and AX on 200TW tires with a stock pan/oiling system, and been fine, but certainly not an apples to apples comparison.
You shouldn't see many issues on those with stockish suspension and stock diffs. As long as you keep the oil full and check it between sessions you'll be fine. The later 2.5 pan (the 2005 got the 2.0 pan since it has a 2.0 ) is a reasonable upgrade and can be found super cheap from people taking them off for other pan upgrades. It gives better baffling than the older 2.0 pan. But other than that, you should be fine.

Most oiling issues come from tires in the 265 and up range on reasonably well sorted suspensions with cooling mods that let the car run longer, faster, and harder. A lot of oiling issues seen on stockish cars are more from people not checking oil between sessions cause these cars WILL push oil out even on mostly stock hardware if you're driving hard. A full oil pan at the start of the track day doesn't mean it stays full during. An AOS, or extra oil is a good solution there. Extra oil is a lot cheaper though if you're just getting started.

Shameless plug, I have a 2.5 pan I took off a car recently if you're interested for cheap.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:00 PM   #8
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Pictures of the unobtainium.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:22 PM   #9
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Pictures of the unobtainium.
Unobtainium?
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Old 09-14-2019, 05:28 PM   #10
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Checking back in on the thread. After consideration I'm going to go ahead and pull the trigger on 18x11's. Autoxing will be much more frequent than track. Tires TW200 (Re-71's)

Suidude, can you clarify the "later 2.5" pan? How later? Or do you mean the std 2.5 pan as the 2.5 superseded the 2.0? I'm running a 2006 WRX pan at the moment.

Last edited by pazzoduc; 09-14-2019 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pazzoduc View Post
My 06 project WRX has sustained non-repairable wheel damage. This means I'm going to have to source a new set, the wheels I have are apparently too damn rare to find a replacement.

This puts me at a cross roads. Do I stick with the wheel size I have that stays within the fenders (18x8.5 @45) or opt for flares and wide wheels. Still learning subaru's and don't really know how these cars respond to wide I.E. 11" wheels.

I don't really want to buy wheels and tires now only to buy them again in the future. Buy once cry once eh? I'm not opposed to spending the money if the benefits are there.

My motorsports background is motorcycle racing. The car racing thing is new to me and I'm just getting started. I don't currently have a plan to attack a specific class of racing. Part of it for me is just enjoying building a capable machine.

Currently the car is swapped to an STI drivetrain with 114.3'x5's, the 6spd, dccd, Spiider, Coilovers, ALK, Hi caster control arms, all the drive line and suspension bushings changed to superpro etc. Goal is a track worthy car. Currently engine is running 350whp/340wtq with a goal this fall/winter of going to 450-500ish. Mods with wheel choice will include carbon drive shaft and reducing front end weight (oswald). Trying to make good decisions that enhance track performance.

What say you?
I wold get the lightest set of wheels you can find. if this is a dedicated race car, light will make more of a difference than any amount of power you can add.. I mean at 500 youre still not going to be able to keep up with the big boys on the straights so the only place you will have the advantage is in the twisties. there are the 6ul's they are pretty light and they are pretty affordable.

http://949racing.com/17x9-6UL.aspx
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Old 09-15-2019, 10:22 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subaru_gc8 View Post
I wold get the lightest set of wheels you can find.
Absolutely.
I don't have delusions of keeping up with "the big boys". I could have bought a used corvette and put less money into it and probly had better results for track use. Primary goal is "FUN FACTOR". The modified hawkeye is tons of fun and very few around running GD body subis these days, at least around here. If I was serious about competing I'd probly run a DOT-r as well, but my resources aren't infinite, though ample enough.
Currently thinking 18x11 Konig hypergrams with 285/30 Re-71's. I'd support 949 but the 6UL 18" apparently isn't an option, and If I'm going wide 17" tire sizes don't seem to work out. The Hypergrams are #20.69 with an RE-71 #27 that's #47.69 per corner with the added benefit of a 24.76 OD. 24.76 is 17" territory but a 18" is a weight disadvantage due to the added width from a 255 to a 285.
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Old 09-19-2019, 11:54 PM   #13
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you can fit up to 265's without flares. some 9's or 9.5's will fit fine with the right offset.
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pazzoduc View Post
Absolutely.
I don't have delusions of keeping up with "the big boys". I could have bought a used corvette and put less money into it and probly had better results for track use. Primary goal is "FUN FACTOR". The modified hawkeye is tons of fun and very few around running GD body subis these days, at least around here. If I was serious about competing I'd probly run a DOT-r as well, but my resources aren't infinite, though ample enough.
Currently thinking 18x11 Konig hypergrams with 285/30 Re-71's. I'd support 949 but the 6UL 18" apparently isn't an option, and If I'm going wide 17" tire sizes don't seem to work out. The Hypergrams are #20.69 with an RE-71 #27 that's #47.69 per corner with the added benefit of a 24.76 OD. 24.76 is 17" territory but a 18" is a weight disadvantage due to the added width from a 255 to a 285.
you know the re71 are good but I would go better than that, real track tires.. get the super stickys ie like the Toyo RR . I have a friend that races a old porsche. it only has like 230 HP with 225 50 15 hoosiers but he can keep up with these guys that are have 600hp and tear them apart in the corners.. basically HP is a bandaid for bad technique.. dont sell your self short bud

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
you can fit up to 265's without flares. some 9's or 9.5's will fit fine with the right offset.
Doesnt that cause alot of slop?

Last edited by subaru_gc8; 09-20-2019 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 09-20-2019, 11:02 PM   #15
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I have fun on falken azentis 615k + 215/45/17 with eneki 17x7's . I'm in STS class and limited to 225 as what I can go for wide size. it all depends on what you want to do with the car. it can be a slippy slope. are you wanted to do hpde or solo.

your in DFW right. I'd go see what squid shawn owner of kraken motorsports can do for you. I think he runs a 265 as his daily and a 315 as his track/solo tires.
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Old 09-21-2019, 10:43 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by subaru_gc8 View Post
you know the re71 are good but I would go better than that, real track tires.. get the super stickys ie like the Toyo RR . I have a friend that races a old porsche. it only has like 230 HP with 225 50 15 hoosiers but he can keep up with these guys that are have 600hp and tear them apart in the corners.. basically HP is a bandaid for bad technique.. dont sell your self short bud



Doesnt that cause alot of slop?
slop?
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Old 09-23-2019, 06:42 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by subaru_gc8 View Post
you know the re71 are good but I would go better than that, real track tires.
Primarily I'm set up for AX, but doing HDPE/track days too. For the most part i need to stick with TW200. Hence going with WIDE to make up for lack of R rubber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nemos_black_wrx View Post
your in DFW right. I'd go see what squid shawn owner of kraken motorsports can do for you.
HA! Yeah I know Rizzo. He has done a ton and will be doing more. Lets just say the car has some "issues" that put me out of most classes. I'm primarily set up for AX, but also have an eye for HDPE. Everything is a compromise. ONe wheel width, one tire for doing everything. I don't know why thats such an issue... HAHA.
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Old 09-25-2019, 10:58 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Primarily I'm set up for AX, but doing HDPE/track days too. For the most part i need to stick with TW200. Hence going with WIDE to make up for lack of R rubber.:
ah I hear ya, you know the new yokos are saposed tob e pretty good too
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Old 09-25-2019, 04:24 PM   #19
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We have a lot of track customers on our 17x9" Mach V Awesome wheels. They are Subaru hubcentric, and dual-drilled with both Subaru bolt patterns. They are light and tough.






(Uh...they are strong, but do try to avoid this...)



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