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Old 05-15-2019, 12:10 AM   #651
edkwon
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Toyota prez sez MT for Supra is in development.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...-future-plans/

Not surprising since BMW never made a manual for their Z4 platform Toyota pretty much has to develop their own from scratch. Curious which model year it will become available
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:08 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by edkwon View Post
Toyota prez sez MT for Supra is in development.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...-future-plans/

Not surprising since BMW never made a manual for their Z4 platform Toyota pretty much has to develop their own from scratch. Curious which model year it will become available
What do you mean? It will be the same ZF manual transmission offered in the M2/M3/M4 that bolts right up to the B58, N55, S55 and all the modular BMW engines. When they say "development process" they are discussing implementation and tuning of the manual transmission hardware added to a car that was originally designed for automatic only.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:43 AM   #653
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Aren't some BMW cars underrated from the factory as well? I could have sworn I saw an article or two about recent-year BMWs performing much better on the dyno than the spec sheet would have you believe.
YMMV, but from what I understand, for a long time now what BMW quotes for rated horsepower you can pretty safely assume it makes about that much at the wheels. They're all underrated.

I didn't think this Supra would be any exception, and with numbers like these, it's very safe to say it is making closer to 400 horsepower.

Last edited by Skunkers; 05-15-2019 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:04 AM   #654
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What do you mean? It will be the same ZF manual transmission offered in the M2/M3/M4 that bolts right up to the B58, N55, S55 and all the modular BMW engines. When they say "development process" they are discussing implementation and tuning of the manual transmission hardware added to a car that was originally designed for automatic only.
The part that bothers me is he says they wanted to protect the 86. An automatic is optional for the 86. Are they axing the automatic option too? IMO these cars should be complimentary not competition. Nobody is cross shopping the two. Weird justification knowing enthusiasts wanted a manual and the rags will eventually turn from praise to criticism until a manual is released. Pretty much like the 86 and lack of power moaning.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:16 PM   #655
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Yeah it’s ridiculous as the objective should be to sell as many Supras as possible as I can just see people rolling their eyes in the Toyota dealership the first time a salesman tells a prospective Supra buyer that if they want a manual transmission they will have to look at the 86. Honestly I would think Toyota management would have a better grip on the market.
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:46 PM   #656
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Yeah itís ridiculous as the objective should be to sell as many Supras as possible as I can just see people rolling their eyes in the Toyota dealership the first time a salesman tells a prospective Supra buyer that if they want a manual transmission they will have to look at the 86. Honestly I would think Toyota management would have a better grip on the market.
Hereís what I think some of you are missing. Newer performance based engines are designed with DCT in mind. When they add the manual as an option, it typically doesnít match well and the feeling just feels odd and like it belongs in another car. Furthermore, the car is about performance. If you want it to be achieve itís best performance, itís getting flappy paddle.

I donít have data to back up my claim, but Iíd be willing to bet that actual buyers of this car (note not online wishful buyers) would overwhelming prefer DCT.
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:59 PM   #657
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Hereís what I think some of you are missing. Newer performance based engines are designed with DCT in mind. When they add the manual as an option, it typically doesnít match well and the feeling just feels odd and like it belongs in another car. Furthermore, the car is about performance. If you want it to be achieve itís best performance, itís getting flappy paddle.

I donít have data to back up my claim, but Iíd be willing to bet that actual buyers of this car (note not online wishful buyers) would overwhelming prefer DCT.
but it doesn't even have that... at the very LEAST have DCT for transmission.

most of the supra's competitors in class/price offer both auto and MT.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:03 PM   #658
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Hereís what I think some of you are missing. Newer performance based engines are designed with DCT in mind. When they add the manual as an option, it typically doesnít match well and the feeling just feels odd and like it belongs in another car. Furthermore, the car is about performance. If you want it to be achieve itís best performance, itís getting flappy paddle.

I donít have data to back up my claim, but Iíd be willing to bet that actual buyers of this car (note not online wishful buyers) would overwhelming prefer DCT.
Well Tada himself knows about the contingent of bummed would be buyers of this. He didnít ignore them and deflect with some BS answer about how much quicker it is with the ZF8. I acknowledge the mix of torque heavy engines and very very good selection of autos out there. But the Supra, THIS Supra, is clearly a drivers car. Itís small with only 2 seats and affordable for a whole host of enthusiasts. I mean itís a proper sports car! Not a muscle car or a GT car like their heavy RC-F. If there were any a car that warrants 3 pedals, I canít think of a better one.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:04 PM   #659
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Here’s what I think some of you are missing. Newer performance based engines are designed with DCT in mind. When they add the manual as an option, it typically doesn’t match well and the feeling just feels odd and like it belongs in another car. Furthermore, the car is about performance. If you want it to be achieve it’s best performance, it’s getting flappy paddle.

I don’t have data to back up my claim, but I’d be willing to bet that actual buyers of this car (note not online wishful buyers) would overwhelming prefer DCT.
While it's true that automatics typically sell better it has to be noted that when it comes to the M2 the take rate for the MT is at 50% or better in North America;

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1404565

Now it's worth noting that the take rate for the MT drops considerably when it comes to M3/M4 sales but in the $55k range of the M2 it seems like the manual transmission is viable at least in North America but it seems other parts of the world have largely moved on from MT's.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:12 PM   #660
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While it's true that automatics typically sell better it has to be noted that when it comes to the M2 the take rate for the MT is at 50% or better in North America;

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1404565

Now it's worth noting that the take rate for the MT drops considerably when it comes to M3/M4 sales but in the $55k range of the M2 it seems like the manual transmission is viable at least in North America but it seems other parts of the world have largely moved on from MT's.
I done goofed and should have clarified ďgloballyĒ and not just US based.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:15 PM   #661
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While it's true that automatics typically sell better it has to be noted that when it comes to the M2 the take rate for the MT is at 50% or better in North America;

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1404565

Now it's worth noting that the take rate for the MT drops considerably when it comes to M3/M4 sales but in the $55k range of the M2 it seems like the manual transmission is viable at least in North America but it seems other parts of the world have largely moved on from MT's.
50% is impressive IMO. In regards to the M3 and M4, an argument can be made that the people who buy those probably care a little bit less about a "pure" driving experience and care a little bit more about prestige and social standing. Bigger and more expensive = better when you pull up to the green on a Sunday morning at the buttcrack of dawn alongside your fellow surgeons and stock brokers.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:33 PM   #662
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Post Toyota sells fewer and fewer manual transmissions ó here's how many fewer

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Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
Honestly I would think Toyota management would have a better grip on the market.
Well, they do

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It probably comes as no surprise that manual transmissions are on uncertain ground these days. Fewer models are offered with them, and public perception is that rowing-your-own is more of an enthusiast thing. But carmakers do not stick with automatics for no reason: expected and realized demand tells manufacturers if it's worth engineering a three-pedal variant. A good example is the new Toyota Supra, which only comes as automatic. There's surely a justified reason for the omission of a manual option, especially when we take a look at these manual take-rate figures provided by CarBuzz.

You can buy the Corolla sedan and hatch as a manual, just like the Tacoma, Yaris sedan and the 86 coupe. CarBuzz discussed the manual gearboxes' popularity with a Toyota representative at a Supra launch event, and the numbers are telling.

In 2018, Toyota sold some 280,000 Corollas in the United States. Just 1% of buyers chose a manual transmission. One! If you only look at the hatchback's figures, they are a touch more positive at 15% for the manual, but as the sedan considerably outsells the hatch, there aren't that many eager manual Corolla buyers in the States. As for the Tacoma and Yaris, they both hover at 5 percent, and undoubtedly as a result, the 2020 Yaris hatch is auto only for the U.S. market. (In the Tacoma, a manual is only available with the four-cylinder engine, not the six, so the pickup's manual take rate is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.)

But the real knife twister is the 86. Even though it's viewed at an enthusiast car, the 86's figures are heavily on the automatic's side. Just 33% of buyers went for the manual, and 67% would rather have the six-speed automatic do the hard work. It's no wonder the Supra only comes as an automatic, and just looking at these numbers, we wouldn't really be that surprised if the eventual 86 successor left out the manual option as well, at least for the United States. Globally, the results surely differ, but in the States it seems 86 buyers favor autobox convenience to the analog feel of shifting your own gears.

Still, the manual options are out there, even if the numbers and availability are dwindling. If you'd really rather buy and drive a manual car, it's entirely possible. But we'd recommend doing that sooner than later.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/05/15/...sales-figures/
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Old 05-15-2019, 05:38 PM   #663
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You can buy a manual commuter Yaris, but not an everymans weekend getaway sports car developed for track driving. Yep, the lots gone barmy.
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:48 PM   #664
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Manual transmission's days were numbered the instant autos started giving better magazine numbers.

The cross section of people who have an actual deep affinity for cars (like the kid who grew up loving cars, working on them himself, going out and drifting in parking lots, lusting after the fast and the furious, etc) and people who can afford good sports cars is basically nonexistent.

Most of the people who buy them are image chasers who know next to nothing about them, couldn't tell you WHY an i6 is a good engine configuration, and have never spent more than 10 minutes total under the hood of a car their entire life, let alone ever turned an actual wrench.

To that end, chasing image means fronting magazine numbers, which brings us back to my original statement. They get to flex numbers AND not have to put up with stalling the car out as they hamfist their way away from the golf course parking lot? Win/win for them.

I'm betting the manual comes later.

If the engine is capable and they fix the nose, and the manual comes, I'd be swayed back to being interested. Happy to see it can squeeze out a sub-4 second 0-60 and has some decent numbers baseline, even compared to pony cars. At least there's still hope.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:49 PM   #665
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Car guys are just as bad about being idiot magazine racers. It isnít limited to the status chasers.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:49 PM   #666
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Twins without a manual? Just cancel them then. What's the point in a "pure driver's car" if the driver can't drive the car?

I could realistically see myself in a Supra, but not with an auto.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:54 PM   #667
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Sounds like a sports car to me.

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Old 05-15-2019, 10:26 PM   #668
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Car guys are just as bad about being idiot magazine racers. It isnít limited to the status chasers.
Car guys can be pretty bad about it as well, but at least it's more limited to online forums and Facebook and such. Status chasers are the guys who showboat about their M340i at every baby shower/wedding/birthday party/company holiday party/etc., to people who know or care even less about cars than they do
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:09 AM   #669
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Still one of my favourite review channels. Zee spends a lot of time going over the details of the interior of the car for anyone who wants to see that.

Ausfahrt only does German, these days. Set your CC with auto-translations for some amusing misheard statements.

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Old 05-17-2019, 02:35 AM   #670
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Toyota prez sez MT for Supra is in development.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...-future-plans/

Not surprising since BMW never made a manual for their Z4 platform Toyota pretty much has to develop their own from scratch. Curious which model year it will become available
Tada is pretty much a tool. No power for the 86 and no manual with a BMW motor for the Supra. He needs to get axed.
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Old 05-17-2019, 05:46 AM   #671
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Tada is pretty much a tool. No power for the 86 and no manual with a BMW motor for the Supra. He needs to get axed.
Obviously there's more to it since Tada is the only reason the 86 and Supra are here. The former president could not have cared less about sporty cars. Tada has to work around what was set before him.

If anything the Supra proves why the Twins don't have "more power". The Supra is a $50k proper 86 once you add supporting modifications for that power.

Unless you just want mid-200 HP, in which case you're looking at a $30k 86.
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:32 AM   #672
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The take rates in the V8 muscle cars are still pretty good. Same with the MX-5. The affordable enthusiast cars still do just fine. STI sales seem pretty good and I'm sure WRX take rates with the manaul are good as well.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:00 AM   #673
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The take rates in the V8 muscle cars are still pretty good. Same with the MX-5. The affordable enthusiast cars still do just fine. STI sales seem pretty good and I'm sure WRX take rates with the manaul are good as well.
If the rumors are to be believed the C8 Corvette will be DCT only. No manual options. This is a big shift for GM and likely an indicator of what may happen for the next gen Camaro (if there is even a next gen Camaro).

I was surprised to hear that more people buy an automatic 86 than a manual.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:18 AM   #674
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I was surprised to hear that more people buy an automatic 86 than a manual.
That's pretty hard for me to believe. I check stock at that major Subaru site in CO, and most of the time they don't even stock automatics. I just helped some friends buy a car a few months ago. I gave them a set of cars to drive and told them to drive them all, then make a decision. They decided on a BRZ and one of them wanted manual, the other auto, so they bought an auto. Was hard to find and the dealer they worked with was giving it away to get it off the lot.
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:04 AM   #675
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That's pretty hard for me to believe. I check stock at that major Subaru site in CO, and most of the time they don't even stock automatics. I just helped some friends buy a car a few months ago. I gave them a set of cars to drive and told them to drive them all, then make a decision. They decided on a BRZ and one of them wanted manual, the other auto, so they bought an auto. Was hard to find and the dealer they worked with was giving it away to get it off the lot.


Could be a regional thing. I see more autos on the lot around here than Iíd expect... particularly since the roads around here really highlight what is so good about the twins.
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