Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday May 20, 2019
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-03-2019, 07:35 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 73805
Join Date: Nov 2004
Default Why So Many Carmakers Use ZF's Eight-Speed Automatic




Quote:
Why So Many Carmakers Use ZF's Eight-Speed Automatic

It's on-par with dual-clutch in terms of performance, but smoother, cheaper, and easier to package. It's no wonder so many cars use it.

The Aston Martin DBS Superleggera. The Toyota Supra. The Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio. The BMW M5. The Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk. The Rolls-Royce Phantom. Though these cars are all different, there's one thing they (and many other cars) have in common: ZF's 8HP eight-speed torque converter automatic transmission.

First introduced in 2008, ZF's eight-speed gearbox has come to occupy the transmission tunnels of countless new cars, from big American trucks to compact hatchbacks and ultra-luxurious grand tourers. In some cases, it's even replaced dual-clutch transmissions. ZF sold an astonishing 3.5 million units in 2017 alone, according to our colleagues at Car and Driver. How has the 8HP come to conquer the market? Well, it's very good at a lot of things.


As Jason Fenske of Engineering Explained says in his latest video above, the ZF eight-speed has been engineered to fulfill many different roles in a single, compact package. It can be quiet and well-behaved in a Ram 1500, or wildly responsive on track while bolted into a new M5. It can be used as a transaxle, like it is with every new Aston Martin, or sit right behind the engine, like in the Giulia. It's also not any bigger than the company's last-gen transmissions, despite having more forward gears. That means companies like Dodge don't have to design an entirely new chassis with a bigger tunnel to fit a new, bigger gearbox. It's also lighter than your average dual-clutch, broadening the performance appeal. It truly checks all the boxes.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by Skylab; 05-06-2019 at 06:03 PM. Reason: photo
AVANTI R5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 05-03-2019, 07:36 AM   #2
AVANTI R5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 73805
Join Date: Nov 2004
Default

AVANTI R5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 09:46 AM   #3
Masterauto
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 198376
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Delaware
Vehicle:
18 Alfa GiuliaTi S
LOTUS Esprit ES, ML TDI

Default

Its better than a DCT as does not have to spool clutches when stopped or crawling in traffic for the average on street driver. Shifts through gears flawlessly and precisely the way you want without hunting or pause and never a do loop up and down scenario like some do.
Masterauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 01:32 PM   #4
neg_matnik
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 132389
Join Date: Nov 2006
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: SF Bay Area
Vehicle:
2006 WRX Wagon SGM
2003 SV1000S, 2014 DL650

Default

Quote:
[...]That means companies like Dodge don't have to design an entirely new chassis with a bigger tunnel to fit a new, bigger gearbox.[...]
Actually, in the case of Challenger, the ZF 8-speed didn't fit the tunnel of the original LC chassis from 2008 (basically, a shortened LX chassis).
They had to modify the tunnel for MY2015 and the chassis got a new code: LA.

I wouldn't have purchased my 2015 Charger without the ZF 8-speed; it's probably one of the best thing about this car.
It's so responsive and has this Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde attitude that you can call up and shut down at any time without having to push a button or anything.
neg_matnik is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 03:10 PM   #5
heavyD
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 194216
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Vehicle:
2018 M2 LCI

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterauto View Post
Its better than a DCT as does not have to spool clutches when stopped or crawling in traffic for the average on street driver. Shifts through gears flawlessly and precisely the way you want without hunting or pause and never a do loop up and down scenario like some do.
It still can't match the best DCT's in terms of pure performance but there's no doubt it's a quality transmission that is probably better for the majority of drivers that don't track their cars.
heavyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 04:22 PM   #6
neg_matnik
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 132389
Join Date: Nov 2006
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: SF Bay Area
Vehicle:
2006 WRX Wagon SGM
2003 SV1000S, 2014 DL650

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
It still can't match the best DCT's in terms of pure performance but there's no doubt it's a quality transmission that is probably better for the majority of drivers that don't track their cars.
It works well at the track too when it's well calibrated and paired up with a responsive engine. See Giulia Quadrifoglio.
Personally, I think that any downshift that happens in less than 200 msecs is fast enough.
Downshifting in a DCT happens 10 times quicker than that and it's nice but that wouldn't make me any faster at a track day, again, that's IMO.
neg_matnik is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 04:32 PM   #7
Straight6
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 419593
Join Date: Apr 2015
Default

It is an excellent transmission. M division is replacing all DCT cars with this in the future. I also agree that it is better than the DSG/DCT units.
Straight6 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 05:41 PM   #8
moshter11
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 110190
Join Date: Mar 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Default

Huh, I thought everyone hated this transmission at one point.
moshter11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 06:49 PM   #9
Straight6
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 419593
Join Date: Apr 2015
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moshter11 View Post
Huh, I thought everyone hated this transmission at one point.
You are confusing it with the ZF9 (for FWD based applications).
Straight6 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2019, 06:52 PM   #10
KC
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 442
Join Date: Oct 1999
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: RI/SE Mass
Vehicle:
17 Imp Spurt
00 S2k | 14 BRZ (SSC)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moshter11 View Post
Huh, I thought everyone hated this transmission at one point.
Even number ZF=good. Odd number ZF = bad.

--kC
KC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2019, 09:03 AM   #11
moshter11
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 110190
Join Date: Mar 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Default

Ah, I see. Thanks for the info.
moshter11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2019, 11:37 AM   #12
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
'18 Golf R
'14 Outback

Default

Could Subaru get this to work with the DCCD? I don't see why not... Because this would be a reasonable way for them to introduce a legitimate performance automatic into the STI, instead of their CVT. Sure, keep the CVT in the wrx, but pony up for the ZF8HT if you really need an automatic in the STI... IIRC, the STI's manual transmission isn't made by Subaru either, just assembled by Subaru.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2019, 12:14 PM   #13
neg_matnik
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 132389
Join Date: Nov 2006
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: SF Bay Area
Vehicle:
2006 WRX Wagon SGM
2003 SV1000S, 2014 DL650

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Could Subaru get this to work with the DCCD? I don't see why not... Because this would be a reasonable way for them to introduce a legitimate performance automatic into the STI, instead of their CVT. Sure, keep the CVT in the wrx, but pony up for the ZF8HT if you really need an automatic in the STI... IIRC, the STI's manual transmission isn't made by Subaru either, just assembled by Subaru.
Problem is the current ZF setup would deviate from Subaru's "symmetrical AWD" motto; see pics of the ZF 8HP55 AWD setup (courtesy of allpar.com):

neg_matnik is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2019, 01:08 PM   #14
b4wantab
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 21293
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Oak Park, IL
Vehicle:
05 OB Black Bean
1969 W-30

Default

Subaru's "symmetrical AWD" isn't symmetrical either but, it isn't as offset as that. As long as the front axles are the same length they just call it symmetrical.

It would be nice if they could package one of the newer generations of auto trans. Subaru needs an auto that can handle some power and is serviceable.

Peace,

Greg
b4wantab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2019, 02:13 PM   #15
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
'18 Golf R
'14 Outback

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
Problem is the current ZF setup would deviate from Subaru's "symmetrical AWD" motto; see pics of the ZF 8HP55 AWD setup (courtesy of allpar.com):
I think they'd do themselves a favor to ditch the "symmetrical" awd cvt in favor of something like the ZF8, at least for the STI. Keep the cvt in the appliance cars.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2019, 02:37 PM   #16
Dex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 163775
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Getting schwifty
Vehicle:
2014 Ford Fiester ST
Murica Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
It works well at the track too when it's well calibrated and paired up with a responsive engine. See Giulia Quadrifoglio.
Personally, I think that any downshift that happens in less than 200 msecs is fast enough.
Downshifting in a DCT happens 10 times quicker than that and it's nice but that wouldn't make me any faster at a track day, again, that's IMO.
How many who buy sporty cars with 2 pedals would be able to squeeze the difference out of a newer ZF vs a DCT? Damn few, I'd imagine. If people are happy to buy a CVT in a WRX, then I'd wager most all won't mind the automatic over the DCT in other car. Save the DCTs for the GT edition track cars.
Dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 02:28 PM   #17
neg_matnik
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 132389
Join Date: Nov 2006
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: SF Bay Area
Vehicle:
2006 WRX Wagon SGM
2003 SV1000S, 2014 DL650

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4wantab View Post
Subaru's "symmetrical AWD" isn't symmetrical either but, it isn't as offset as that. As long as the front axles are the same length they just call it symmetrical.

It would be nice if they could package one of the newer generations of auto trans. Subaru needs an auto that can handle some power and is serviceable.

Peace,

Greg
I agree 100%.
Although, regarding serviceability, the ZF 8HP requires a little more work compared to, let's say, the old 4EAT on my wife's 2011 Forester (there's no fluid dipstick on the ZF for instance...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
I think they'd do themselves a favor to ditch the "symmetrical" awd cvt in favor of something like the ZF8, at least for the STI. Keep the cvt in the appliance cars.
Yes, that's it, keep the CVT for FB20/FB25 and stick something like a ZF8 or an Aisin 8-speed in the WRX and STI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dex View Post
How many who buy sporty cars with 2 pedals would be able to squeeze the difference out of a newer ZF vs a DCT? Damn few, I'd imagine. If people are happy to buy a CVT in a WRX, then I'd wager most all won't mind the automatic over the DCT in other car. Save the DCTs for the GT edition track cars.
My thoughts exactly.
neg_matnik is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 04:11 PM   #18
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
'18 Golf R
'14 Outback

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
Yes, that's it, keep the CVT for FB20/FB25 and stick something like a ZF8 or an Aisin 8-speed in the WRX and STI.
Honestly, I say keep the cvt in the WRX. The sti has always had the superior transmission, why tweak that recipe? The wrx is the more commuter focused car anyway.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 07:50 PM   #19
b4wantab
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 21293
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Oak Park, IL
Vehicle:
05 OB Black Bean
1969 W-30

Default

The newer 8 and 9 speed trans are more efficient and have a better ratio spreads than Subbie's CVT. Audi figured that out quickly and dumped their CVT. Subaru could probably get another 1-2 mpg across the board with a newer 8 speed.

CVT or not, my problem is buying a car that has a major component that is considered a $6-8K throw-away.

Peace,

Greg
b4wantab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 09:54 PM   #20
JustyWRC
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 153088
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Arlington, TN
Vehicle:
2005 Baja Turbo
06/04 For 18 Imp 4dr Sprt

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
I think they'd do themselves a favor to ditch the "symmetrical" awd cvt in favor of something like the ZF8, at least for the STI. Keep the cvt in the appliance cars.

Yeah. That ain't happening. How long have they advertised that? How long has that been hammered out? Not a chance. At least here in the states.
JustyWRC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2019, 11:25 AM   #21
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
'18 Golf R
'14 Outback

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Yeah. That ain't happening. How long have they advertised that? How long has that been hammered out? Not a chance. At least here in the states.
Subaru is the AWD KING!

Except here is this 2wd sports car. And get this, by branching out into a new realm, subaru learned something from it...

Things change. "symmetrical" is a gimmick - a marketing ploy that in reality means very little to the average consumer. Hell, I've been on this forum for 12 years, and am an engineer who likes to understand how things work, and not until yesterday did I know what "Symmetrical" actually meant... And in these days with lots of electronic controls, it actually means very little mechanically either. An AWD STI with a ZF transmission would be FAR superior to one with a "symmetrical" CVT. Period. Maybe in 20 years when subaru has some time to develop a reasonable CVT, maybe it could work... until then, why not use what's already on the market? It's not like Subaru is manufacturing the STI manual transmission.

Last edited by dwf137; 05-08-2019 at 11:31 AM.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2019, 12:33 PM   #22
heavyD
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 194216
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Vehicle:
2018 M2 LCI

Default

CVT’s have their place in entry level economy cars but Subaru really does have to start investing in automatic transmissions as they are heading down the road of Nissan which is not a road you want to be on unless you have aspirations of becoming the Japanese Chrysler.
heavyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2019, 12:35 PM   #23
Sid03SVT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 183032
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: CT
Vehicle:
OLD Family Wagon

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Subaru is the AWD KING!

Except here is this 2wd sports car. And get this, by branching out into a new realm, subaru learned something from it...

Things change. "symmetrical" is a gimmick - a marketing ploy that in reality means very little to the average consumer. Hell, I've been on this forum for 12 years, and am an engineer who likes to understand how things work, and not until yesterday did I know what "Symmetrical" actually meant... And in these days with lots of electronic controls, it actually means very little mechanically either. An AWD STI with a ZF transmission would be FAR superior to one with a "symmetrical" CVT. Period. Maybe in 20 years when subaru has some time to develop a reasonable CVT, maybe it could work... until then, why not use what's already on the market? It's not like Subaru is manufacturing the STI manual transmission.
Obligatory reminder that the USDM Subarus weren't always AWD; there were 4WD variants (ex: Brat) and FWD variants until the late 90's+/- (ex: 1996 Impreza was still available in FWD trim).
Sid03SVT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2019, 03:25 PM   #24
lil'redwagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 10854
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Los Angeles, CA.
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan ej207
2008 Infiniti G37 S/C'd

Default

If they could use the ZF 8 speed, and push the engine back behind the front axle, it would be a huge win.
lil'redwagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2019, 06:01 PM   #25
PovertySpec
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 437188
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Houston
Vehicle:
06 TR Stage 2
17 SS 1LE

Default

So why donít Toyota Ford and GM use this transmission?
PovertySpec is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2019 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2017, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.