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Old 05-08-2019, 06:26 PM   #26
bemani
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post

I wouldn't have purchased my 2015 Charger without the ZF 8-speed; it's probably one of the best thing about this car.
It's so responsive and has this Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde attitude that you can call up and shut down at any time without having to push a button or anything.
The only thing I don't like is Dodge's wonky programming, where it won't hold gears or won't shift into a particular gear based on your speed and mode and whatever. Its better to just let it do its thing.
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:10 PM   #27
neg_matnik
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Originally Posted by bemani View Post
The only thing I don't like is Dodge's wonky programming, where it won't hold gears or won't shift into a particular gear based on your speed and mode and whatever. Its better to just let it do its thing.
Yeah, Dodge's programming isn't perfect, they haven't spent nearly as much time polishing things like Audi/BMW or even Alfa.
I usually leave the tranny and engine in "normal/regular" mode and I occasionally trigger downshifts with the paddle when I'm in slow moving traffic.
Otherwise, it's just like you said, I let it do its thing and it's been working well.
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:51 PM   #28
KC
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Originally Posted by PovertySpec View Post
So why donít Toyota Ford and GM use this transmission?
Toyota has it in the new Supra. The others? To keep their partners in business?

--kC
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Old 05-08-2019, 08:39 PM   #29
JustyWRC
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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Subaru is the AWD KING!

Except here is this 2wd sports car. And get this, by branching out into a new realm, subaru learned something from it...

Things change. "symmetrical" is a gimmick - a marketing ploy that in reality means very little to the average consumer. Hell, I've been on this forum for 12 years, and am an engineer who likes to understand how things work, and not until yesterday did I know what "Symmetrical" actually meant... And in these days with lots of electronic controls, it actually means very little mechanically either. An AWD STI with a ZF transmission would be FAR superior to one with a "symmetrical" CVT. Period. Maybe in 20 years when subaru has some time to develop a reasonable CVT, maybe it could work... until then, why not use what's already on the market? It's not like Subaru is manufacturing the STI manual transmission.

I won't disagree with your view of "Symmetrical". Things have progressed. I don't have much idea what it takes to design a car and "balance" it. Could Subaru do non-symmetrical with the boxer layout? If they could, how much effort does that take? SOA did not want the BRZ. Mainly because it did go against what they hammered into their market for 16 years. In the 7 years it's been out, have you seen ONE advertisement for the BRZ? I'll answer that for you. No. They were certainly not disappointed in what that car brought them though, I am sure. I could see them slowing stopping to use "symmetrical" in their marketing and move away from it. You suggest they give up on CVT for 20 years? How do they improve something without trial an error? I'll be first in line for a HTCVT STI if that is available on the SGP when it debuts. I have a big grin every time I get to play with a WRX and can only imagine how much better it will get with the STI. That's me. Anyone else can do whatever they want. My view on it is, by the time they ever kill the manual WRX/STI, their auto option will be fine. Not perfect, obviously, for those that would always want that third pedal.

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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Obligatory reminder that the USDM Subarus weren't always AWD; there were 4WD variants (ex: Brat) and FWD variants until the late 90's+/- (ex: 1996 Impreza was still available in FWD trim).
And for many years after that Subaru in Japan had FWD variants of several models. Including the Impreza.

My point is, they decided on a direction and it has done nothing but improve their position in the market ever since. Why on Earth would you mess with something that works?
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Old 05-08-2019, 09:20 PM   #30
gathermewool
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My point is, they decided on a direction and it has done nothing but improve their position in the market ever since. Why on Earth would you mess with something that works?
Because it make technical and financial sense????

We're not talking about an Ascent with an 8-speed, but a specialty sports-model, like the STI!

I'd bet real dollar-bucks that many more people would accept a tried-and-true slush-box over a CVT for their AT STI.
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Old 05-08-2019, 09:59 PM   #31
heavyD
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Originally Posted by gathermewool View Post
I'd bet real dollar-bucks that many more people would accept a tried-and-true slush-box over a CVT for their AT STI.
Well that's not exactly a risky bet. I imagine the 99/100 people would opt for a proper automatic over a CVT as you have to account for the odd person that hates themself.
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Old 05-09-2019, 01:38 AM   #32
PovertySpec
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BMW has it in the new Supra. The others? To keep their partners in business?

--kC
Fixed.
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Old 05-09-2019, 06:32 AM   #33
Sid03SVT
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Originally Posted by PovertySpec View Post
So why don’t Toyota Ford and GM use this transmission?
They've done a cost-benefit analysis and determined the in house options are cheaper:
-Ford/GM 10 speed that's in most vehicles sold (Aka trucks), and starting soon will be in nearly all vehicles sold (because, yo know, dropping most cars in the USDM)
-Toyota potential applications are limited to tundra/tacoma/4runner and lexus products; beyond that though, it's likely cheaper for Toyota to build in house, because building efficiently is what Toyota/aisin does.

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Old 05-09-2019, 03:46 PM   #34
gathermewool
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Well that's not exactly a risky bet. I imagine the 99/100 people would opt for a proper automatic over a CVT as you have to account for the odd person that hates themself.
That, and something like the STI is an enthusiast's car, which means none of us who might be interested in a slush-box STI would give a **** whether its AWD is "symmetrical" or not, so long as it's reliable and just as capable as the MT.

With that said, if Subaru ever did offer an STI with a SUPER-DUPER HTCVT, I'd for sure be skipping the first five years of production to see how things turn out. I mean, who in their right mind would adopt the first generation of any higher-powered CVT option???

Anyway, with that said, I actually really like the HTCVT in my '14 FXT!

I like it, because it doesn't simulate shift points (except in manual-mode) and it seems to fit the FA20DIT nicely for such a large vehicle. I'm probably wrong, but I don't know if I'd enjoy this FXT if it was a manual.

I think the one saving grace, is that it locks in at an RPM, boosts quickly and just goes, which is nice in a CUV.
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Old 05-09-2019, 04:41 PM   #35
dwf137
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
I won't disagree with your view of "Symmetrical". Things have progressed. I don't have much idea what it takes to design a car and "balance" it. Could Subaru do non-symmetrical with the boxer layout? If they could, how much effort does that take? SOA did not want the BRZ. Mainly because it did go against what they hammered into their market for 16 years. In the 7 years it's been out, have you seen ONE advertisement for the BRZ? I'll answer that for you. No. They were certainly not disappointed in what that car brought them though, I am sure. I could see them slowing stopping to use "symmetrical" in their marketing and move away from it. You suggest they give up on CVT for 20 years? How do they improve something without trial an error? I'll be first in line for a HTCVT STI if that is available on the SGP when it debuts. I have a big grin every time I get to play with a WRX and can only imagine how much better it will get with the STI. That's me. Anyone else can do whatever they want. My view on it is, by the time they ever kill the manual WRX/STI, their auto option will be fine. Not perfect, obviously, for those that would always want that third pedal.

And for many years after that Subaru in Japan had FWD variants of several models. Including the Impreza.

My point is, they decided on a direction and it has done nothing but improve their position in the market ever since. Why on Earth would you mess with something that works?
I don't think that they give up on the CVT, but that it currently doesn't have a great place on a vehicle like an STI, and that Subaru would need to spend significant time and money to make it appropriate for a track-ready vehicle. They better it by continuing to tweak it in the WRX, where I feel the CVT is probably adequate - it's a commuter car after all.

They're improving their position because of their unique styling and the history that the brand developed, not because they started dumping CVT's into every car.

Yes, I realize that Subaru has had 2wd cars, but just not recently in the US, apart from the brz, and none that were "sporty". Somehow toyota bent subaru's arm into finishing development on the 86/brz, and despite not being interested at first, they have pretty much said they learned a lot about chassis development and handling... Perhaps figuring out how to integrate DCCD and all with a different trans would open their opportunities...
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Old 05-10-2019, 07:32 AM   #36
b4wantab
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
I don't have much idea what it takes to design a car and "balance" it. Could Subaru do non-symmetrical with the boxer layout?
Don"t kid yourself. Subaru hasn't had a balanced chassis in generations. Not including the BRZ. The programmers "balance" the handling and ride at Subaru. That's why the Legacy Sport sedan and the raised Outback have the exact same skid pad numbers.

Subaru could engineer it a multi-speed auto in but it would take a bit of work. The 5EAT was just an adaption of a Jatco unit that Nissan used in the Titan. I am unsure how this ZF measures based on the 5EAT or the CVT. For all of Subaru's engineering prowess I have to believe that are working on a more capable trans. Who knows?

Peace,

Greg
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