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Old 02-02-2009, 01:27 PM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default BMW to use automatic over dual-clutch transmissions, 8-speed coming this year

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BMWs development chief Klaus Draeger says that the German automaker is turning way from dual-clutch and more towards automatic transmissions for its high-volume models.


The eight-speed automatic that we developed with ZF can compete with dual-clutch transmissions on shifting times, but its lighter and more efficient and has cost advantages, he told Automotive News Europe. The incompatibility with high engine-speed designs is a disadvantage, however.

BMW currently offers dual-clutch transmissions in its sporty versions of the 3-Series coupes and Z4 Roadsters. Draeger says that dual-clutch is complex, costly and heavy.


The 8-gear automatic that BMW co-developed with ZF Friedrichshafen is for cars with rear-wheel and all-wheel-drive. The transmission will go into BMW and Audi vehicles later this year along with an optional fuel-saving start/stop feature.
http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/02/02...ing-this-year/
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:37 PM   #2
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I don't remember BMW ever having a dual clutch tranny, they have SMG.

Did I miss something?
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:39 PM   #3
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Quote:
Draeger says that dual-clutch is complex, costly and heavy.
Umm.. not when compared to an automatic. o_O


Edit: I get it.. BMW doesn't want to service the clutches on a dual clutch box. They can just change the trans fluid with an automatic. Included maintenance is swiftly ruining BMW.
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:21 PM   #4
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“The eight-speed automatic that we developed with ZF can compete with dual-clutch transmissions on shifting times, but it’s lighter and more efficient and has cost advantages,”

Are you saying he's lying?
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:26 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaverboy View Post
Umm.. not when compared to an automatic. o_O


Edit: I get it.. BMW doesn't want to service the clutches on a dual clutch box. They can just change the trans fluid with an automatic. Included maintenance is swiftly ruining BMW.
With every new iteration, MB is showing that you can make a damn good slushbox these days. See also the IS-F. If the efficiency is really up, and the shift times are down to where they say they are...not sure what the advantage of a clutched system is. Th best autos already lock up almost immediately, and indeed feel very clutch-like.

I say, why not.
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:38 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by erich_sc View Post
“The eight-speed automatic that we developed with ZF can compete with dual-clutch transmissions on shifting times, but it’s lighter and more efficient and has cost advantages,”

Are you saying he's lying?
I'm saying it's hard to believe.

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Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
With every new iteration, MB is showing that you can make a damn good slushbox these days. See also the IS-F. If the efficiency is really up, and the shift times are down to where they say they are...not sure what the advantage of a clutched system is. Th best autos already lock up almost immediately, and indeed feel very clutch-like.

I say, why not.
Sure.. it just seems weird. The IS-F has a great auto (and yes, I have driven it).. but it's still an auto, and there's no mistaking it. If the F had been given a proper transmission, it wouldn't have been playing 2nd fiddle to the M3 in driving enjoyment. Would you buy an M3 with an auto?

At least with the dual-clutch transmission there was an option that could appeal to the enthusiast (albeit, the softcore enthusiast).. and the manual transmission's days may be numbered.

Lets face it, the only reason the auto is doing so well against the dual-clutch transmission is that it's had 10x the development cycle.
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaverboy View Post
Umm.. not when compared to an automatic. o_O


Edit: I get it.. BMW doesn't want to service the clutches on a dual clutch box. They can just change the trans fluid with an automatic. Included maintenance is swiftly ruining BMW.
You can change the trans fluid in BMW slushboxes? (I know, I'm way behind the times) I'm surprised BMW does any preventative maintenance to automatic transmissions at all, they're all going to fail a few years after the free maintenance period is done anyway!
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Old 02-02-2009, 04:24 PM   #8
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You can change the trans fluid in BMW slushboxes? (I know, I'm way behind the times) I'm surprised BMW does any preventative maintenance to automatic transmissions at all, they're all going to fail a few years after the free maintenance period is done anyway!
Good point. I bet they're saving $40,000 a year by not using tranny drain plugs.
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:20 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post
I don't remember BMW ever having a dual clutch tranny, they have SMG.

Did I miss something?
Dual clutch in the new M3, its called M-DCT.
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Old 02-03-2009, 01:07 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Beaverboy View Post
I get it.. BMW doesn't want to service the clutches on a dual clutch box. They can just change the trans fluid with an automatic. Included maintenance is swiftly ruining BMW.
But the free maintenance is only for 4 years/50k miles... I'm not too familiar with what differences (if any) there are in the maintenance of a dual-clutch, but I'd assume that anything drastic (beyond fluid changes) would occur beyond 50k miles.
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Old 02-03-2009, 01:12 PM   #11
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i dont think their free maintenance covers any wear and tear items... so clutch and brake services are not included... right?...
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Old 02-03-2009, 01:33 PM   #12
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i dont think their free maintenance covers any wear and tear items... so clutch and brake services are not included... right?...
Incorrect. The maintenance program covers brakes and clutches (usually only 1 clutch replacement though, any more than that is considered abuse). So, in fact, wear and tear items are covered, the exception being the tires. It does not cover transmission/ diff oil changes as those are considered to be "lifetime", the exception being M cars. BTW, its not "free" maintenance, I guarantee that you pay for it when you buy the car.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:42 PM   #13
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The new 7 with the 8-speed is sounding very nice for a DD - maybe it's my gray hair talking...
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:54 PM   #14
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^ You sure it's not your VAGINA? Just kidding... gray hair won't stop me from wanting a manual transmission... or at least that's what I say now.
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Old 02-03-2009, 03:01 PM   #15
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^ You sure it's not your VAGINA? Just kidding... gray hair won't stop me from wanting a manual transmission... or at least that's what I say now.
Well, I do have a manual car for the weekends, so I guess I just have half a vag.
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Old 02-03-2009, 03:04 PM   #16
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^ That makes you... a tranny, haha.
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Old 02-03-2009, 03:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaverboy View Post

Sure.. it just seems weird. The IS-F has a great auto (and yes, I have driven it).. but it's still an auto, and there's no mistaking it. If the F had been given a proper transmission, it wouldn't have been playing 2nd fiddle to the M3 in driving enjoyment. Would you buy an M3 with an auto?

At least with the dual-clutch transmission there was an option that could appeal to the enthusiast (albeit, the softcore enthusiast).. and the manual transmission's days may be numbered.
I'm confused. You didn't give any reason for an enthusiast to prefer an automated manual over an actual auto (besides that the one uses a clutch, and the other, well, still uses a kind of clutch just not a plate clutch).

If it locks up early, shifts as fast, etc...why would an enthusiast prefer a dual-clutch system to an advanced torque converter? If the IS-F box behaves just like an auto-clutched setup, why would anyone care? I mean, there are instances were you can -feel- its a torque converter (in the IS-F)...but I think those characteristics are being eliminated...which is really the point of this article.

So, hypothetically, if they advance them enough to perform the same, and one is cheaper/weighs less...well, I'll tell you what one I'll take.

What is the advantage to further development of the clutched boxes?
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Old 02-03-2009, 03:09 PM   #18
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^ That makes you... a tranny, haha.
Or a Hermie discussing trannies!
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:25 PM   #19
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I'm confused. You didn't give any reason for an enthusiast to prefer an automated manual over an actual auto (besides that the one uses a clutch, and the other, well, still uses a kind of clutch just not a plate clutch).
You pointed it out:
Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
I mean, there are instances were you can -feel- its a torque converter (in the IS-F)...
As good as the IS-F's gearbox is.. it's still just good 'for an automatic'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
but I think those characteristics are being eliminated...which is really the point of this article.
Can I please hate on an automatic without you bein all up in ma face?


Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
So, hypothetically, if they advance them enough to perform the same, and one is cheaper/weighs less...well, I'll tell you what one I'll take.

What is the advantage to further development of the clutched boxes?
The first production DSG was fantastic. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of room for improvement. I'll be satisfied when you can operate a DSG through a drive-by-wire clutch & shifter (with gear-preselect!) and it feels like a real manual gearbox.


*giggles* Just think of it.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:10 PM   #20
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The first production DSG was fantastic. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of room for improvement. I'll be satisfied when you can operate a DSG through a drive-by-wire clutch & shifter (with gear-preselect!) and it feels like a real manual gearbox.


*giggles* Just think of it.
What's the point of having a DSG then? It'll remove any of the advantages such as quick shifts since traditional manuals are limited by how fast you can move your hands and feet. So rather than have instantaneous gear changes, it'll be slowed down to give that "manual feel"
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