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Old 01-07-2019, 02:48 PM   #26
Charlie-III
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I will say, sorta depends on the sanctioning body rules.
Some say kill battery, some say kill ignition, some say both.
Also, do they require an interior switch the driver can get to, exterior for safety crew crew can get to, or both?

When in doubt, read the rule book for whatever you're racing under.

To me, 2 switches that do the same thing. Interior that kills battery power, ignition and fuel pump, paralled to an external switch for safety workers.

But, series rules are first and foremost. While my thoughts may be great, they may not meet the the rules which saves your butt as well as safety workers.

Yes, killing battery power may kill fuel pump, depends on if engine is running.
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Old 01-08-2019, 06:39 AM   #27
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Well I typed up a long reply with a better solution than the cheap-o master switch and then NASIOC went down for maintenance. I'll summarize:

1. A mechanical master switch is good because it's cheap - otherwise, it's horribly messy for wiring and kinda sucks compared to modern EFI solutions.
2. To stop the alternator, just stop the motor. To stop the motor, you just need to interrupt the main (ignition) relay or the ECU power supply.
3. The fuel pump on a Subaru is controlled by the ECU and only runs when the motor is running, so you don't *NEED* to do anything here... but you can add a low-side switch to the fuel pump relay if you want - it has some benefit on a race car.
4. A latching battery isolator can be made with three relays, a toggle switch, a push-button switch, and literally only one single wire cut within the OEM harness.
5. A latching battery isolator will pass ALL rule book scrutiny I can think of; it is considerably safer and easier to wire up.

I'll post a diagram tomorrow when I've got a better image editor - it'll apply to just about every Subaru made in the last 20 years.
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Old 01-08-2019, 09:46 AM   #28
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I have to update mine on the rally car for ARA rules. Master killswitch that will cut power, and turn off engine. I just had a battery disconnect before. I have a Longacre 4430 switch, and it has lead to splice into the ignition switch. Everything I search for comes up with sparkplug related, or splicing into gauges information. This forum post was the only thing I have found related to what I need.
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Old 01-08-2019, 01:11 PM   #29
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As promised:



And this red highlighted wire is the one to cut and wire to the IGN KILL relay. I suggest removing the pin itself from B47 and then adding a new wire + terminal to B47 for the second wire. This way you can extend the length of the wire. Add a DT or DTM 2-pin connector so you can just jumper it to return to OEM anytime.



Other notes -

1. This is a 2006 STI diagram but will apply to literally all Subaru vehicles for the last 2 decades. You just need to double check ECU pin position for this Ignition/Main Relay (Subaru uses the terms Ignition Relay for cable throttle cars and Main Relay for DBW cars, generally speaking... but it's the same exact thing). This is usually shown in pages 2-4 of the 'Engine Electrical System' section.

2. Large relay should be a TE V23132-A2001-B100 or -B200. This is the most expensive part of the circuit.



3. Small relays should be generics mounted in a Hella H84702001 relay holder, or equivalent.

4. Green LED illuminates when power is turned ON. Red LED illuminates when power is tripped via Engine Kill switch. These are optional, but handy - just make sure to use 12V LEDs that don't require a resistor.

5. If power is tripped externally, you must cycle the power using the internal switch to restore vehicle power. This is why this isolator is such a safe system - it requires the driver to acknowledge the fault before power can be restored.

6. Suggested external button is the Lifeline sealed push-button switch p/n 942-100-004. Internal switch can be any automotive-voltage rated toggle switch.



7. Main breaker connections should be:

- Battery Side: Battery (+) terminal and isolator circuit +12V connection
- Switched Side: Starter and main fuse box lug (this is on the underside of the Main Fuse Box (M/B) in the engine bay)

Here's a good location for the main relay and a completed control circuit:




Note - mine has an added charging connector on the battery side and a supplementary looms on both the battery and switched side.

You may need to make a bus bar as the relays don't allow contact stacking very well:



Top to bottom:

1. Switched - Center console breakers (lighting, etc.)
2. Switched - Main fuse box
3. Switched - Starter
4. Battery - Battery
5. Battery - Control circuit (this one is kind of buried in the photo)
6. Battery - Charging connector (Anderson plug)

Lastly, the black connector is the master relay coil (2-pin connector)

Last edited by mrsaturn7085; 01-22-2019 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 01-20-2019, 10:11 PM   #30
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I'm looking at my ignition switch, and I have 2 black white wires, and 2 green white wires. I'm almost thinking it doesn't matter which one I splice into. I figure that if it cuts the circuit it "should" shut the car off. Car is a 07 Impreza 2.5i.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:28 PM   #31
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You should not touch the ignition switch - you should go after the ignition (i.e. main) relay as I explained above.
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Old 01-22-2019, 10:49 AM   #32
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I ended up finding the Green wire that is on the ignition switch in Generallee69's wiring diagram. I was just on the wrong side of the harness. To make it easier for anybody else looking for that ignition wire it is on the blue harness coming of the key ignition switch down the steering column, on the female side. Thanks for your help Mrsaturn, I like the way you did yours, but didn't work well for what I already had to work with.
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Old 01-22-2019, 12:23 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
I will say, sorta depends on the sanctioning body rules.
Some say kill battery, some say kill ignition, some say both.
Also, do they require an interior switch the driver can get to, exterior for safety crew crew can get to, or both?

When in doubt, read the rule book for whatever you're racing under.

To me, 2 switches that do the same thing. Interior that kills battery power, ignition and fuel pump, paralled to an external switch for safety workers.

But, series rules are first and foremost. While my thoughts may be great, they may not meet the the rules which saves your butt as well as safety workers.

Yes, killing battery power may kill fuel pump, depends on if engine is running.
Wouldn't you want those switches in series? If they're in parallel, then as long as one switch closes the circuit, power keeps running. Both would have to be flipped to kill power: cabin and external. If they're in series, then flipping either will break the circuit and kill power.
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Old 01-22-2019, 12:57 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
As promised:

Minor quibble, but isn't RY4's NO/NC connections reversed?

When you close the master switch S11, green LED illuminates, master relay RY3's coil energizes and latches closed to power fuse box + starter, but also energizes ignition kill relay RY4's coil to latch from closing the circuit between ecu main relay and ecu main relay coil to open circuit, thus interrupting ignition.

Or am I missing something in the circuit logic?
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Old 01-22-2019, 02:25 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirBrass View Post
Minor quibble, but isn't RY4's NO/NC connections reversed?

When you close the master switch S11, green LED illuminates, master relay RY3's coil energizes and latches closed to power fuse box + starter, but also energizes ignition kill relay RY4's coil to latch from closing the circuit between ecu main relay and ecu main relay coil to open circuit, thus interrupting ignition.

Or am I missing something in the circuit logic?
I believe you are correct and if so more than minor.

I think you would want RY4 to operate like RY3. It looks like the lower line was meant to go to the main relay coil when energized and it should be NO.
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Old 01-22-2019, 02:35 PM   #36
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Fixed in original post - sorry about that! RY4 has a single task - shutting the motor off thereby killing the alternator power. RY3 has quite a bit more going on given the latching action.

Figured it was easier to sketch an abbreviated diagram (and in the process, made an error) than give you the whole thing:

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Old 01-22-2019, 03:05 PM   #37
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I wasn't sure whether I was missing something or not. I figured RY4 had only one function given that its name was "ignition kill", and that RY3 was more complicated given its name of "Master."
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Old 01-22-2019, 04:55 PM   #38
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Actually RY3 is very simple - ON-OFF switch for the battery power to the car. The control relay is where all the latching action takes place.

The only power NOT traveling through RY3 in my diagram is required for the isolator system itself. In the second, more-detailed diagram, direct battery power also goes to a COMMS breaker which includes map lights, radio (i.e. phone charger), and tripmeter (given the programmed data would be reset if the master switch cut this power). You can ignore the COMMS breaker topic for this thread as we are talking about road cars and not a rally setup.
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:03 AM   #39
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Yeah, I spent a good 20 minutes looking at the logic of RY6 and its interaction with S11, RY3, and RY4, and how S16 plays into it.

Also, even if someone doesn't opt for LEDs, diodes at the positions indicated will be necessary.

It's a very interesting and very good kill switch system. Not too complex, but thorough.
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:18 PM   #40
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Well laid out and described circuitry and great contribution for sure.

The recommended external switch looks like it is momentary - it would make its breaking circuit only while pushed, releasing the breaking circuit once released. If I am wrong about the style of switch or if the control relay holds its state once energized even after it is no longer energized, I apologize and the next statement would not be relevant.

I am not sure that would meet sanctioning body rules. I believe they would require or desire a hard break in the circuits that is maintained, not momentary. The purpose is not only to turn off the engine, but to significantly reduce the circuits which could short if they become damaged.

And while I am sure its location and purpose would be identified and highlighted by the appropriate kill switch decal, I also think safety workers would prefer to see the typical style turn switch they are looking for.

Something like this common 6-pole switch intended to cut the battery and ignition circuits and ground the alternator.

https://www.ogracing.com/battery-6-pole-killswitch
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:28 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboICE View Post
Well laid out and described circuitry and great contribution for sure.

The recommended external switch looks like it is momentary - it would make its breaking circuit only while pushed, releasing the breaking circuit once released. If I am wrong about the style of switch or if the control relay holds its state once energized even after it is no longer energized, I apologize and the next statement would not be relevant.

I am not sure that would meet sanctioning body rules. I believe they would require or desire a hard break in the circuits that is maintained, not momentary. The purpose is not only to turn off the engine, but to significantly reduce the circuits which could short if they become damaged.

And while I am sure its location and purpose would be identified and highlighted by the appropriate kill switch decal, I also think safety workers would prefer to see the typical style turn switch they are looking for.

Something like this common 6-pole switch intended to cut the battery and ignition circuits and ground the alternator.

https://www.ogracing.com/battery-6-pole-killswitch
The external switch is a momentary push button, however, all 3 relays shown in the kill switch circuitry are latching relays. That means it only requires a momentary pulse to lock them to the toggled position. So a momentary contact is all that's needed, and that's safe because if you're cutting power, you don't want to require power to hold the relays open or closed.

The pushbutton external triggers the control relay to latch to the off position, which will send power to the ignition kill coil latching that relay to open circuit, and the control latch won't allow the master relay to be latched closed again until the interior master toggle switch is toggled open then closed again to cause the relay to latch back. So, an external kill input (external push button) will function such that it requires the driver to physically toggle the master switch, thus forcing the driver to acknowledge the kill before being able to restart the car. Very clever and also very secure against accidental kills.
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:48 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirBrass View Post
all 3 relays shown in the kill switch circuitry are latching relays. That means it only requires a momentary pulse to lock them to the toggled position.
Understood, thank you for the clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirBrass View Post
and that's safe because if you're cutting power, you don't want to require power to hold the relays open or closed.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirBrass View Post
So, an external kill input (external push button) will function such that it requires the driver to physically toggle the master switch, thus forcing the driver to acknowledge the kill before being able to restart the car. Very clever and also very secure against accidental kills.
Elegant and awesome.
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Old 01-23-2019, 02:34 PM   #43
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The latching action takes place due to the feedback loop on pin 5 of the CONTROL relay to the coil side. Essentially, once energized, the relay is providing it's own coil power.

The note that all three relays are latching relays is not correct - only the CONTROL relay is the latching relay. The MASTER and IGN KILL relays are simply triggered by the CONTROL relay having power on pin 4.
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