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Old 04-24-2012, 11:07 PM   #1051
bettner12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582

Blue is the BRZ front strut angle. Do not like! Damn near perpendicular for an even ****tier camber gain than an Impreza which is already quite terrible.
Its not about camber gain. Ideal shock placement IS perpendicular to wheel travel. Maybe Pitt should have taught you that too...
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:23 PM   #1052
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And looks like there isn't any room to slot the top mounting holes. This thing is going to need much more roll stiffness up front to not suck.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:35 PM   #1053
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what are you guys, daft? the inclination of the strut doesn't matter, it's the points between the strut top and LBJ in relation to LBJ and inner arm pivots. oh no there's more bending load there..
edit: clint yeah.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:38 PM   #1054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bettner12 View Post
Its not about camber gain. Ideal shock placement IS perpendicular to wheel travel. Maybe Pitt should have taught you that too...
LOL, you are dead wrong.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:51 PM   #1055
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Jason, that is the steering axis and not the strut inclination angle!

Last edited by MRF582; 04-25-2012 at 12:00 AM.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:53 PM   #1056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582
LOL, you are dead wrong.
Not going to waste my time.on here tonight explaining suspension design. I encourage you to read the race car vehicle dynamics book by Millikan and Millikan. There is another book too, ill find it when I get back home.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:05 AM   #1057
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^Please follow your own advice and re-read it. We're not talking about a baja off-road car here. We're talking about tarmac racing.

http://books.google.com/books?id=rY2...0strut&f=false
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:11 AM   #1058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582
^Please follow your own advice and re-read it. We're not talking about a baja off-road car here. We're talking about tarmac racing.

http://books.google.com/books?id=rY2...0strut&f=false
You mean a Baja off road racer with better bump steer than a GT-1 with. 013" of total bumpsteer? And perfect camber gains through droop and compression?
Macpherson strut sucks end of story.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:12 AM   #1059
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So anyone got room for 2 adults and 1 car at OCAWD? We're lookin at hotels and I can get one for $100 a night but it'll be quite boring with just the 2 of us.

We'll pitch in up to that amount if need be
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:18 AM   #1060
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Originally Posted by bettner12 View Post
You mean a Baja off road racer with better bump steer than a GT-1 with. 013" of total bumpsteer? And perfect camber gains through droop and compression?
Macpherson strut sucks end of story.
Dude, we're talking about the BRZ front suspension here. Are you high?

We're talking about the BRZ front MacPherson strut. Camber gain DOES matter. And Jason is wrong. The strut inclination absolutely matters when defining the instantaneous center. The steering axis which is what he described does not matter.

http://www.modified.com/tech/0508_sc...3/viewall.html
Quote:
To find the instant centers on a car with upper and lower control arms, draw lines from the center of the ball joint through the inner pivots of the upper and lower control arms and extend them inward toward the center of the car until they meet. Now draw a line from the center of the tire's contact patch to the instant center on both sides of the car. The point where these two lines intersect is the roll center.

For a car with a MacPherson strut suspension, the upper line is made by drawing a line 90 degrees from the strut axis, starting at the upper mounting point of the strut.

Last edited by MRF582; 04-25-2012 at 12:47 AM.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:51 AM   #1061
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K.....
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:56 AM   #1062
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Originally Posted by Tenacious Bee View Post
Oh sorry. It was the mother of all graphs !!! The Eva Mendez of graphs !!!! The 86 Bears defense of graphs !! The best graph I have ever !!!
Show me a really good one with similar mods.
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:10 AM   #1063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582 View Post
Dude, we're talking about the BRZ front suspension here. Are you high?

We're talking about the BRZ front MacPherson strut. Camber gain DOES matter. And Jason is wrong. The strut inclination absolutely matters when defining the instantaneous center. The steering axis which is what he described does not matter.

http://www.modified.com/tech/0508_sc...3/viewall.html
i can't argue with you this right here and now, i don't have the time to do a convincing job, but all i should tell you is: do some modeling on extreme offset examples.
what you read on the webz with all the 90 degree to the top of the strut mount is effectively the upper arm's axis slag falls apart. besides, when you take off the 180lb/in springs and put on some real springs(400+) to handle non-low rolling resistance prius tires(not joking), how much usable suspension travel you actually have? so who cares about camber curves and camber gain? i'd care more about damper valving, static caster and camber, and what diff to be running, oh, and how much the engine has left before it's gonna go big joe.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:11 AM   #1064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582 View Post
^Please follow your own advice and re-read it. We're not talking about a baja off-road car here. We're talking about tarmac racing.

http://books.google.com/books?id=rY2...0strut&f=false
Don't you want to raise the instant (roll) center? If so then a more perpendicular strut will do that!

Last edited by FXTSPORTS08; 04-25-2012 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:22 AM   #1065
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Originally Posted by glhs377 View Post
i can't argue with you this right here and now, i don't have the time to do a convincing job, but all i should tell you is: do some modeling on extreme offset examples.
what you read on the webz with all the 90 degree to the top of the strut mount is effectively the upper arm's axis slag falls apart. besides, when you take off the 180lb/in springs and put on some real springs(400+) to handle non-low rolling resistance prius tires(not joking), how much usable suspension travel you actually have? so who cares about camber curves and camber gain? i'd care more about damper valving, static caster and camber, and what diff to be running, oh, and how much the engine has left before it's gonna go big joe.
Gawd, you're so ****ing annoying. Can't even admit when you're wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by glhs377 View Post
what are you guys, daft? the inclination of the strut doesn't matter, it's the points between the strut top and LBJ in relation to LBJ and inner arm pivots. oh no there's more bending load there..
edit: clint yeah.
^This is dead wrong.

And are you seriously that attention challenged that you can't stay on the discussion at hand?

This discussion started as turbocat and I observing how ****ty the inherent negative camber gain the BRZ has which is even worse than an Impreza. And I said you'd need much more front roll stiffness to make the car not suck. Did you forget to read that part?

Then Clinton chimes in with his massive amount of Formula Baja experience to say camber gain does not matter. I told him we aren't talking about a baja off-road car, to which he attempts to whip out his dick and talk about how perfectly the camber was controlled through droop and compression on one of the Baja cars. That is the exact opposite of what you want for a car driven on tarmac! The point is for the tire to stay perpendicular to the road as the body rolls. This can only be achieved if negative camber increases under compression!

Then YOU chime in with your massive amount of Formula SAE experience and trip over such an elemental part of MacStrut design. And you're telling ME to go search when YOU are the one that's totally got this wrong? For the love of god, please look up how to calculate the front roll center of a MacStrut car. Don't try to weasel out of this by talking about the engine, differential and tires etc. We are talking about the inherently worse MacPherson strut inclination of the BRZ compared to the Impreza.

How about page 36 'How to make your car handle' by Fred Puhn. http://books.google.com/books?id=cr4...0strut&f=false

Why don't you do some research about why strut inclination matters and then get back to me? Because I don't have time to put up with your arrogance and inability to accept when you're wrong.

Maybe the both of you should've gone to Pitt.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:24 AM   #1066
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Originally Posted by FXTSPORTS08 View Post
Don't you want to raise the instant (roll) center? If so then a more perpendicular strut will do that!
Jesus ****ing Christ.

Which strut inclination would YOU rather have? (You clearly don't know how to calculate roll center because you think the instant center is the same as the roll center.)

Pretend the strut inclination as drawn is perpendicular to the top red line... (obviously)

Last edited by MRF582; 04-25-2012 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:29 AM   #1067
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kinda wish we were talking steaks and phones again.

shek/turbo - what's the purpose of the shallower strut angle on the BRZ?

Does it have to do w. being able to fit the motor in there? Safety? Is it somehow a cost thing? I'm just curious why more angle wouldn't be engineered in (especially since it doesn't seem like a cost-prohibitive act) if it matters so much on a car that was built for tarmac.

And do you have to approach changing the angle from the top? What about pushing the point at which the strut mounts to the knuckle away from the centerline?
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:56 AM   #1068
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Originally Posted by garagedefeat View Post
kinda wish we were talking steaks and phones again.

shek/turbo - what's the purpose of the shallower strut angle on the BRZ?

Does it have to do w. being able to fit the motor in there? Safety? Is it somehow a cost thing? I'm just curious why more angle wouldn't be engineered in (especially since it doesn't seem like a cost-prohibitive act) if it matters so much on a car that was built for tarmac.

And do you have to approach changing the angle from the top? What about pushing the point at which the strut mounts to the knuckle away from the centerline?
Yep, blame all Subaru horrid strut designs on the boxer motor. Too wide. You can either move the top point in or move the knuckle away from the centerline of the car. Wider control arms will do that. They could've just made the car wider to begin with.


They can't move the top in much further without rendering a spark plug swap almost impossible without removing/lifting the engine. They did give the car enough fender room so a wider control arm will work.


Look how close the tire is to the coil. Won't even be able to install 'camber bolts' to tilt the wheel in.

In a year's worth of time, all fast BRZs will be running with 30mm less backspacing on the wheels and -3.5 degrees or more of camber to try and bandaid the pile of **** Subaru designed. If someone can sell wider control arms, they will sell very very well.

Last edited by MRF582; 04-25-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:56 AM   #1069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garagedefeat View Post
kinda wish we were talking steaks and phones again. The phones... Meh. The Steaks, ribs, brisket, smokers, all very good, but I was getting bored. Engines and all the bit that get them down the road is what really makes my head spin. I like that this thread always has variety.


shek/turbo - what's the purpose of the shallower strut angle on the BRZ? I have no official answer for you. I freely admit that I'm no engineer, and that there are people in this thread that have a ton of engineering knowledge above my own. My best guess is packaging, safety, and feel. I think this (Feel) was one of the biggest factors in the whole design of this chassis. Look at this pic again. The strut towers don't have much room to be pushed in.

Does it have to do w. being able to fit the motor in there? Safety? Is it somehow a cost thing? I'm just curious why more angle wouldn't be engineered in (especially since it doesn't seem like a cost-prohibitive act) if it matters so much on a car that was built for tarmac.

And do you have to approach changing the angle from the top? What about pushing the point at which the strut mounts to the knuckle away from the centerline? My next thought on camber adjustment was eccentric bushings and/or slots on the lower control arm(ball joints or chassis mounts). Which is what I think you are getting at.
So I think Shek beat me to it.

Look at Ken Gushi's FR-S Drift car. They have tons of inward(Neg) camber adjustment left on the top mounts. I don't have exact answers. Plus we all know Drift cars are completely opposite of the kind of handling we are talking about. I do know the stock BRZ has been reviewed as being very responsive, and easy to toss about, and slide. I don't know what the rest of Gushi's suspension looks like, but it does get me asking more questions about the stock BRZ.

Last edited by turbocat; 04-25-2012 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:35 PM   #1070
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:59 PM   #1071
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Hey guys, what's up with PVGP registration? Should we just go register independently via the website?
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:04 PM   #1072
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Thank you for hurting my brain sir!

Jiffy
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:18 PM   #1073
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If I had a BRZ, those camber plates would be my first mod and crank the things in.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:25 PM   #1074
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good question!

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Hey guys, what's up with PVGP registration? Should we just go register independently via the website?
Hold off on that till you hear from fisher. He has the most up to date info on that.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:31 PM   #1075
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Yeah but does it have an O2 sensor bunghole on the DP a few inches past the hotside?

But I do like the fact that this car will actually see some track time. Do eeet Jeremey!
Actually, my car has seen track time on every turbo set up except stock. This is the fourth set up to include stock. Wow! I hadn't thought about that up until this point. Turbo set-up ADD.

I don't see why this turbo setup would be any different. I just can't do it as much as I'd like to due to my schedule.
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