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Old 03-03-2004, 02:04 PM   #1
MinesFaster
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Default STi cams and shimless buckets

Since the 2004 and up 2.0 and 2.5 use shimless buckets now, is it feasible to swap 2.5 cams and buckets into an older shim/bucket designed head? I was pondering the problem of high rpm falloff and short of forking 3500+ for RA heads and cams or the limited benefits of the JUNS (as shown by the baseline Axis graph on the 60-1 2.35L) for the cost involved led me to this. Is it doable? Or is it simply a nice thought?I know that the 2.0L stuff is interchangeable (shim type to shimless) so basically its just the cam swap at this point. Yes, I realise it is still the small port head problem, but it has to better right?
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Old 03-03-2004, 02:53 PM   #2
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Default Re: STi cams and shimless buckets

Quote:
Originally posted by MinesFaster
Since the 2004 and up 2.0 and 2.5 use shimless buckets now, is it feasible to swap 2.5 cams and buckets into an older shim/bucket designed head? I was pondering the problem of high rpm falloff and short of forking 3500+ for RA heads and cams or the limited benefits of the JUNS (as shown by the baseline Axis graph on the 60-1 2.35L) for the cost involved led me to this. Is it doable? Or is it simply a nice thought?I know that the 2.0L stuff is interchangeable (shim type to shimless) so basically its just the cam swap at this point. Yes, I realise it is still the small port head problem, but it has to better right?
The switch was made in 2003 for shimless and I have seen many 02 EJ205's that where shimless also. You can swap over the 2.5 STI cams but you will need the AVCS intake cam sprockets because AVCS cams are off 5 degrees on the key. All this bolts right in. You might need to order some different sized buckets depending on how yours measure out.

$3500 for RA heads and cams? Are you insane? I just watched a guy buy a set for $1800. My entire V7 RA engine was only $3500 shipped.

Jun cams? Limited benifit? Again you must have been dropped as a baby

Clark
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Old 03-04-2004, 01:21 AM   #3
MinesFaster
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Default This is what I meant

http://axispowerracing.net/newpics/358whpdynosheet1.JPG

I guess I should have phrased that somewhat differently. It moved the powerband 500rpm higher than a stock 2.0L with stock heads and cams. It didnt make much more power at roughly the same boost level that couldnt just be explained by the size of the turbo. (see Nathan's post on the 18G dyno plot, as this is what I am referencing)

As far as the heads I have looked high and low and only found one place that offered RA heads. Dont worry even though I was dropped as a child it wasnt frequent enough or hard enough to convince me to buy them.

http://www.gruppe-s.com/Subaru/subeng.htm

Not even Rallispec offers just heads, though I admit I havent got around to calling them yet to verify it for fact. Show me some links or give me some phone numbers and I would really appreciate it.
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Old 03-04-2004, 07:55 AM   #4
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You may want to call Gruppe-S for pricing, you may find out it's alot cheaper than posted on their site
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Old 03-04-2004, 11:23 AM   #5
MinesFaster
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Default O I C

Thank you, I appreciate the info
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Old 03-04-2004, 12:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: This is what I meant

Quote:
Originally posted by MinesFaster
http://axispowerracing.net/newpics/358whpdynosheet1.JPG

I guess I should have phrased that somewhat differently. It moved the powerband 500rpm higher than a stock 2.0L with stock heads and cams. It didnt make much more power at roughly the same boost level that couldnt just be explained by the size of the turbo. (see Nathan's post on the 18G dyno plot, as this is what I am referencing)

As far as the heads I have looked high and low and only found one place that offered RA heads. Dont worry even though I was dropped as a child it wasnt frequent enough or hard enough to convince me to buy them.

http://www.gruppe-s.com/Subaru/subeng.htm

Not even Rallispec offers just heads, though I admit I havent got around to calling them yet to verify it for fact. Show me some links or give me some phone numbers and I would really appreciate it.

Do you realize how much power 358whp on that dyno is? Thats not a 2.0 motor... Cant compare stock cams on a 2.0 to race cams on a larger motor... What you would normally see with the Juns is a solid 1000 rpm later power peak. That added displacement moved that back by half I bet.

Those Jun cams are worth alot of power throughout the band. They have a ton of lift. I love em... I dont like the idle. The problem with the STi cams is that they have lots of duration but not much lift. Probably to save valve train wear. I have the RA 258's and they have less lift then the US WRX cams. They still dont make power at 8k.


Kingpinperformance.com (Mike) has STI heads all the time. There are two sets of V7's. Depending on exactly what they are and the condition they sell for $1500-$1900 complete and ready to bolt on. A friend just purchased some from him only days ago. They sell fast but Mike gets them in on a weekly basis.

IAperformance.com (Stephen) has or will have three sets in a short time. One V8 set, One V7 set and one V7 RA set.

If you want some heads, just call these guys up and let them know...

Cya man

Clark
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Old 03-04-2004, 02:07 PM   #7
MinesFaster
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Default

Thanks clark I appreciate the info. I hadnt fully thought about the offset of bigger cam to displacement. Makes sense. I am used to what a 272 in a 1.6 can do(though I hate to admit it I was a former honda addict). Course then again thats apples to oranges.
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Old 03-04-2004, 02:35 PM   #8
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Default

The graph that you showed was on a brand new motor with maybe 400 miles on it. Power was tuned with winter pump 93 octane. Lower boost and the AFR past 6000 dropped to 10:1. So the power is pretty good. Could be better and will be.

Tuned to perfection on race gas I would expect they make peak HP a little past ~7000RPMs on this set up.

-Mike
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Old 03-05-2004, 10:01 PM   #9
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Default You're right

Mike- It was a bad example. I knew the details of your buildup as you presented them. The fact that the cams were set at stock values and hadnt been played with. Like I said before, it was former Honda bias sneaking in. The SOHC D series that I had a 272 pulled HARD to 8500 with a torque peak at 5800rpm. But as I noted after that it is an apples to oranges situation.

So Clark as I understand what you are saying about the 5* offset, I can either get the STi cam gears (probably better in the long run) or get adjustable and run them 5* off to make up for it.

At this point I need to ask if its really even worth it for a 2.0 to switch to the 2.5 cams. Is it gonna make any difference other than where the powerband is?

My personal 60-1 setup has yet to run, its just pre-dyno anxiety attacks causing me to behave this way.
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Old 03-08-2004, 12:13 PM   #10
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The non AVCS cams use the plastic pulleys on the intake side and are straight up 0. The AVCS cams use the hydralic AVCS cam gears which offset the cam 5 degrees. If you install AVCS cams with non AVCS cam gears your off 5. If you used non AVCS cams like the Jun's with AVCS cam gears you would be off the other way 5. Axis has posted about this and this is where I recieved that info.

FYI.. I dont know of any adjustable Intake cam sprockets for the EJ. They might exist but I do not know of any. I was told the reason is the Plastic Cam wheels have magnets inside for the Cam sensor (hal effect) and that they would be very difficult to produce. Adjustable Exhaust cam sprockets are available from Axis.. Although not cheap and no easy to adjust they are something I am considering if my next dyno session still shows drop off past 7000 rpm.

For me I would change the cams to gain the Valve lift. Have you seen Jeff sponaugles post about the different cams? He made charts showing the lift and duration. Its insightfull information. The JUN 272's are a bit overboard for a car that is going to see street duty in my opinion. The idle is rough, there is very little vac at idle.. About half of what a stock cam'd EJ has. It makes tuning difficult. Plus, They are a bit noisy.. I would probably choose the 264's if I wanted to ditch AVCS.

Hmm... I wonder if we could disect an AVCS cam gear and some how make it adjustable!......

Clark
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Old 03-16-2004, 04:29 PM   #11
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie

FYI.. I dont know of any adjustable Intake cam sprockets for the EJ. They might exist but I do not know of any. I was told the reason is the Plastic Cam wheels have magnets inside for the Cam sensor (hal effect) and that they would be very difficult to produce. Adjustable Exhaust cam sprockets are available from Axis.. Although not cheap and no easy to adjust they are something I am considering if my next dyno session still shows drop off past 7000 rpm.
A full set. bling bling

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Old 03-16-2004, 06:38 PM   #12
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According to Jun my real problem with the top end is boost keeping the valves open because of the stock springs. I was advised to reduce boost up top or replace my springs with Jun's. Easier said then done..

Clark
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Old 03-16-2004, 08:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie
All this bolts right in. You might need to order some different sized buckets depending on how yours measure out.


Clark

Clark:

Why would you have to order new sized buckets? I thought the different size buckets were to adjust for the different seating depths of the valves. The off lobe grind of the cams ought to be the same, and as long as you don't mess with the valves at all, why would the dimension change?

just curious,
TimK
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Old 03-17-2004, 09:40 AM   #14
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bump for question about buckets...
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Old 03-17-2004, 10:44 AM   #15
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Clark is talking about changing valvesprings, I would assume retainers and perhaps cams as well.

In this case, obvioulsy the measure on the buckets will not be correct. Doing a shim adjustment or ordering new shimless buckets would be in order. Or there is the shim under bucket option.

When doing an adjustment you are looking for .008 on the intake and .010 on the exhaust. A feeler gauge is your friend.

-Mike
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Old 03-17-2004, 12:38 PM   #16
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Thanks Mike, that's what I thought. If you're going to use the stock valvesprings/retainers, etc and don't grind valves or lap seats, the stock buckets ought to be the right size for new cams (as long as the cams are ground to the same diameter off-lobe).

TimK
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