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Old 05-23-2019, 07:57 PM   #26
Rexy18
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Someone explain to me how Full Time Closed Loops is a safety measure?
Open loop value for afr is set and thats what it stays during wot. Wrong gas, bye bye engine.
Closed loop allows for input from cars sensors, like oxygen sensors chasing lambda and perfect burn, wrong fuel and oxygen sensor among others will pick up differnece and correct requested value. So thats that unless there is a closed loop that i dont know about.

Open loop no input from car. Closed loop allows for car input/adjustments, hence safety mechanism. What’s so confusing.
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Old 05-23-2019, 08:43 PM   #27
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In regards to pump gas yes, but I'm asking about in regards to ethanol content (if you had quoted the whole post this would be obvious). How does forcing a car at a lower octane rating to run leaner AFR than it is meant to qualify as a safety feature?

An E30 tune targets (generally) about 12.5:1 or a lambda of .85.

An E15 tune targets (generally) about 11-11.5:1 or a lambda of .75-.78.

How does forcing a car that has E15 into a leaner AFR/Lambda qualify as a safety feature? Forcing an E15 tune to run 12.5:1 (.85 lmabda) will cause excessive knock and could potentially throw rods through blocks.

Theres a reason the guy selling the tunes makes it clear having the right e content is paramount or the car will blow up. FTCL isnt gonna save anything with this scenario.

Try again Stij.
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Old 05-23-2019, 08:49 PM   #28
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So does oxygen sensor work and have any input in this closed loop of yours? Is it a closed loop or not? Do sensors have input or not, cuz if they dont then you are in open loop by definition.

So which is it? It doesnt matter whether its e or gas, oxygen sensor doesnt know which fuel just how it burns.

There is no forcing in closes loop, you can request but being closed loop allows for adjusting of your request. Im tuned but my af corrections happen not cuz of my tuners request but because its in closed loop unlike open loop.

Last edited by Rexy18; 05-24-2019 at 07:09 PM. Reason: Fixed
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:00 PM   #29
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Your responses are absolutely mind boggling. It's like arguing with a wall, a dumb one at that.
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:00 PM   #30
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Im not saying that one can freely run different blend than tuned for.

Just trying to explain why ftcl tuning has a small safety net due to built in automotive safeties/sensors making small adjustments. There is only so much wiggle room though.

Dumb as a wall yet able to differentiate between closed and open loop, freak of nature. Shouldnt ask dumb questions my man. Perhaps ask google first.
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:33 PM   #31
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You think your engine is throwing AF correction in Open Loop, "Im tuned but my af corrections happen not cuz of my tuners request but because its open loop."

YOU are the one who doesn't understand the difference here.

But hey, I think forum-wide we can agree with you that you are "dumb as a wall."
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:57 PM   #32
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Lol.

Focus on an error when you got nothing else. Is my spelling good?
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Old 05-24-2019, 03:25 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Rexy18 View Post
Lol.

Focus on an error when you got nothing else. Is my spelling good?
Talking down to someone/ acting like you know everything and then getting one of the most basic tuning concepts wrong You need to shutup and listen to people and you may just learn something after all
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Old 05-24-2019, 05:43 PM   #34
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Can we for once keep this civil and E30 related ? Please.
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Old 05-26-2019, 10:45 AM   #35
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Buy a flex fuel kit.

/thread
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Old 05-26-2019, 11:54 AM   #36
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Buy a flex fuel kit.

/thread
Not that simple. A FF kit with a tune will run me 1,500 dollars plus. This tune...150 bucks. I don't plan on going farther than the E30 mix and it is about 45 minute drive to my nearest E85 station. I don't plan on running E30 mix more than few times a year. I already have a phenomenal 93 tune that I daily. I am just looking for an occasional fun tune.
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:08 PM   #37
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Bren tune flex fuel for 500 and clark for 400$. Flex kits can be had for 320-350$ on ebay or fb so thats half of what you quoted. Still expensive for minimal gains if you're stg2 93oct.

Otherwise for 150$ you can get an ots e30 tune and guess what your tank e level is, then monitor corrections to add 93 or e85 respectively. People do it all the time, but its just way easier to do it properly with a flex kit once.

Last edited by Rexy18; 05-26-2019 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 07-24-2019, 04:37 PM   #38
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Default Ftcl Ftol

Ok so correct me if Iím wrong but someone was asking about why FTCL is a safety net, itís my understanding that using it on an e30 tune would allow more fuel to be added or pulled if AFR wasnít ideal as opposed to FTOL were thereís no input from sensors and your **** outta luck if your fueling is off... soooo unless Iím wrong idk how that wouldnít be a safety net 🤷*♂️
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Old 07-24-2019, 05:26 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Jon535251 View Post
Ok so correct me if Iím wrong but someone was asking about why FTCL is a safety net, itís my understanding that using it on an e30 tune would allow more fuel to be added or pulled if AFR wasnít ideal as opposed to FTOL were thereís no input from sensors and your **** outta luck if your fueling is off... soooo unless Iím wrong idk how that wouldnít be a safety net 🤷*♂️

93e10 tunes generally target mid-10s to low-11s. e30 tunes usually target at least mid-high 11s. Your target fueling doesn't ever really change unless you change your tune.

If you have the wrong ethanol content, your target fuel won't change to account for that, even in FTCL. Your fuel trims will change so that you can hit that target.

So if you're supposed to be targeting say 12.0 AFR on E30 but you're only running E10, you won't be hitting that 12.0 target. The fueling is scaled for E30. FTCL means you can hit that target even if your e content is messed up. Running 12s AFR with whatever high timing on a low e concentration will kill your engine. In this situation OL at WOT is probably better.

FTCL gives you a safety net for bad MAF calibration or unexpected changes to airflow. You're safe to go to higher e concentrations, but not to lower concentrations. FTCL is done so you always hit your fueling target. If your target is bad though, it doesn't help you.

The problem here is about knock sensitivity, not about wrong AFRs. Glarry is right
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Old 07-29-2019, 11:51 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Jon535251 View Post
Ok so correct me if Iím wrong but someone was asking about why FTCL is a safety net, itís my understanding that using it on an e30 tune would allow more fuel to be added or pulled if AFR wasnít ideal as opposed to FTOL were thereís no input from sensors and your **** outta luck if your fueling is off... soooo unless Iím wrong idk how that wouldnít be a safety net 🤷*♂️
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Originally Posted by DarkGreyMetallic View Post
93e10 tunes generally target mid-10s to low-11s. e30 tunes usually target at least mid-high 11s. Your target fueling doesn't ever really change unless you change your tune.

If you have the wrong ethanol content, your target fuel won't change to account for that, even in FTCL. Your fuel trims will change so that you can hit that target.

So if you're supposed to be targeting say 12.0 AFR on E30 but you're only running E10, you won't be hitting that 12.0 target. The fueling is scaled for E30. FTCL means you can hit that target even if your e content is messed up. Running 12s AFR with whatever high timing on a low e concentration will kill your engine. In this situation OL at WOT is probably better.

FTCL gives you a safety net for bad MAF calibration or unexpected changes to airflow. You're safe to go to higher e concentrations, but not to lower concentrations. FTCL is done so you always hit your fueling target. If your target is bad though, it doesn't help you.

The problem here is about knock sensitivity, not about wrong AFRs. Glarry is right
DarkGrayMetallic has it pretty much right on the head. Closed loop is a safety net in an apples to apples situation. E10 vs E10. If we're guessing what the mix is then it's not much of a help. Neither schemes work well in that scenario. CL is better if you have too much ethanol and open loop is better if you don't have enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy18 View Post
Bren tune flex fuel for 500 and clark for 400$. Flex kits can be had for 320-350$ on ebay or fb so thats half of what you quoted. Still expensive for minimal gains if you're stg2 93oct.

Otherwise for 150$ you can get an ots e30 tune and guess what your tank e level is, then monitor corrections to add 93 or e85 respectively. People do it all the time, but its just way easier to do it properly with a flex kit once.
It really all comes down to a risk vs reward conversation with yourself. Flex is more expensive but safer and incredibly more powerful. My E60 only WRX pulled Stage 2 93 Octane cars badly from a roll and out trapped them by 3-4mph. Minimal gains is not the phrase I would use to describe that.
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Old 08-02-2019, 03:26 PM   #41
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So if I run 5.5 to 6 gallons of quality E85 with the rest 93 I should be fine ? We only have 2 E85 gas stations here, both a bit far. I only use the Exxon one. I really cannot fill up with E85 constantly because the gas station is just too far and I got the E30 OTS map for next to nothing. I would love to get the FF kit with the fuel pump and a pro tune but I cannot see the point at this time since I can't even get access to E85 all that frequently. I am still debating a DP, COBB FF kit, EBCS and a flex tune from Ron but the lack of E85 availability is holding me back. His 93 tune has been tits so far, even with this heat wave we had.
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:04 PM   #42
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So if I run 5.5 to 6 gallons of quality E85 with the rest 93 I should be fine ? We only have 2 E85 gas stations here, both a bit far. I only use the Exxon one. I really cannot fill up with E85 constantly because the gas station is just too far and I got the E30 OTS map for next to nothing. I would love to get the FF kit with the fuel pump and a pro tune but I cannot see the point at this time since I can't even get access to E85 all that frequently. I am still debating a DP, COBB FF kit, EBCS and a flex tune from Ron but the lack of E85 availability is holding me back. His 93 tune has been tits so far, even with this heat wave we had.
I run 5.5 gallons to get me to E36, assuming 85% ethanol out of the pump. If you're worried about it then test the E content from the pump with a kit.

Since you already have the E30 map then you might as well try it. It's a pretty good power bump over 93, but it still doesn't feel that fast. Run through a few tanks to see if it's worth the extra time to get E85.

Maybe do meth if E85 is that far away?
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:15 PM   #43
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I run 5.5 gallons to get me to E36, assuming 85% ethanol out of the pump. If you're worried about it then test the E content from the pump with a kit.

Since you already have the E30 map then you might as well try it. It's a pretty good power bump over 93, but it still doesn't feel that fast. Run through a few tanks to see if it's worth the extra time to get E85.

Maybe do meth if E85 is that far away?
I am not really looking to break records and I personally feel E30 is the sweet spot for these cars. FF kit would be more of a safeguard rather than something to extract more power. I have been running E15-E20 mix on a CL 93 tune beating the car senseless in 100 degree heat and she took it like a champ. 300-320 whp is my personal safe limit for ANY 4 cyl turbo engine at this price point.
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:39 PM   #44
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I am thinking of getting the MAP E30 tune or Phatbotti E30 tune. What are your thoughts on these ? Worth the hassle ? No other mods on the car and I would use it every other tank or so.
mixing gas is a pain.. just wait to go flex fuel
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:52 PM   #45
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mixing gas is a pain.. just wait to go flex fuel
Even w flex kit there is mixing involved. Yet to meet a person who gets e60 straight out of the pump. Itís just a bit less painful cuz you have a gauge readout telling you what the blend in your tank is.

He would be guessing. Then watching trims. Then adjusting if need be. Good luck. Personally my sweet spot for all 4 cyl cars is 350/350.
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Old 08-02-2019, 05:44 PM   #46
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I've had good results mixing for E30 with the guidelines of 2:1 ratio. If I know the station is known for low E mix (ie Kum and Go is typically E70); I add an extra .5 - 1 gallon of E85.
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:26 PM   #47
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I am not really looking to break records and I personally feel E30 is the sweet spot for these cars. FF kit would be more of a safeguard rather than something to extract more power. I have been running E15-E20 mix on a CL 93 tune beating the car senseless in 100 degree heat and she took it like a champ. 300-320 whp is my personal safe limit for ANY 4 cyl turbo engine at this price point.
It'll definitely be fun
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I've had good results mixing for E30 with the guidelines of 2:1 ratio. If I know the station is known for low E mix (ie Kum and Go is typically E70); I add an extra .5 - 1 gallon of E85.
Yeah I do 2:1 when I'm not fully empty

For me it's really annoying to have to reflash when I go back to 93 so FF is next on my list
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:33 PM   #48
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It'll definitely be funYeah I do 2:1 when I'm not fully empty

For me it's really annoying to have to reflash when I go back to 93 so FF is next on my list
Do you do realtime vs reflash ? If you are closed loop on pump you can probably run a 93 reflash and realtime E30 here and there.
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Old 08-03-2019, 08:03 AM   #49
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I use this app to calculate e%:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...lator&hl=en_US

I do occasionally sample the local E blends so I know what I'm getting (and they have an E30 pump to make it easy).
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Old 08-03-2019, 02:13 PM   #50
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Do you do realtime vs reflash ? If you are closed loop on pump you can probably run a 93 reflash and realtime E30 here and there.
Yeah I thought about doing that but health issues & then TGV/EGR deletes got in the way of testing it. The only concern would be the injectors firing too long on the 93 fueling and blowing out spark, but you can change start of injection to fix it. I should try this soon
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I use this app to calculate e%:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...lator&hl=en_US

I do occasionally sample the local E blends so I know what I'm getting (and they have an E30 pump to make it easy).
Is E30 from the pump mixed with 93/91 or with 87?
According to this http://www.georgebelton.com/E85Calculator.php
5 gallons of e85 with the rest being 87 gives an octane of 92.8, compared to 96.8 when mixing with 93.
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