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12-17-2005, 04:49 PM | #1 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 103151
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Port, Polish, Wrap Stock Manifold, what will fit
Hey I am new to the forum, my buddy has a 2004 STi and I am going to be doing a port/polish and heat wrap to his stock manifold. The only problem is the downtime. It will take some time to port the stock exhaust manifold and he needs his car. I have searched and looked around and I havnt really been able to find any info if WRX manifolds fit on STi or will they hit the pan. Also I found a JDM manifold from a wrx, seller says it has longer runners than stock US spec manifold, is that true. I am looking for a manifold he can buy now and I can port it and then just swap it in so there wont be any downtime. If the wrx manifold does fit do they flow the same as the STi stock manifold, does the JDM spec flow better. I dont want to swap in a poorer flowing manifold even if we will be porting. If they dont fit or the flow isnt similar stock. I will just wait for a stock STi manifold to come up. Thanks for any help.
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12-17-2005, 05:01 PM | #2 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 103151
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well I am not sure how I missed the post right below mine. But they say the STi and WRX manfiolds are the same. Now my real question is are the JDM manfiolds better flowing and do they have longer runners.
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12-17-2005, 05:59 PM | #3 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 47145
Join Date: Nov 2003
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MWSOC
Location: Henderson, KY
Vehicle:2012 Gas Saver |
Crucial Racing will port-match & ceramic coat the stock manifold for $200....they may even have a exchange plan in place....well worth it in my opinion....
Last edited by testes1010; 12-19-2005 at 04:11 AM. |
12-17-2005, 06:01 PM | #4 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 103151
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Ya that does seems like a good idea, $200 is a great price with the coating. Thanks
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12-17-2005, 06:37 PM | #5 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 28910
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MAIC
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Vehicle:2013 REX DARK GREY |
Just sent ya a PM on a set of manifolds that I'm selling. Could help with your downtime issue.
Thanks |
12-18-2005, 07:57 AM | #6 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:2003 GGA MBP 12.9 / 105+ |
be aware fxt manifolds are not the same as wrx and sti manifolds.
and for $200 w/coating included i'd wonder how much work they're going to do on those headers. to port well takes time, and time is money. i took off a LOT of metal when i did mine.. far more than an extrude hone would take off. jm2c ken |
12-18-2005, 09:57 AM | #7 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 47145
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Location: Henderson, KY
Vehicle:2012 Gas Saver |
Quote:
pics inside...Crucial Thread.... |
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12-18-2005, 11:58 AM | #8 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:2003 GGA MBP 12.9 / 105+ |
ok, take one of the posted after pics:
and compare it to one of mine: i think it's pretty clear there is a LOT more material left in the crucial extrude honed casting compared to my hand-ground work. i took it right back to the inside gasket mark. compare the wall thicknesses between the ports, and between the ports and the edges of the flanges. it took me a lot of hours to grind it down, which is why i'm not doing it for anybody else! i've still got iron filings in my work clothes. i'm not knocking crucial at all. they have set an aggressive price point and it has opened up the possibility of having oem manifolds cleaned up for a lot more subie owners... but imho, if you want to take it one more step, there's more to porting than extrude honing. ken |
12-18-2005, 08:01 PM | #9 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 67128
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Location: clearh2o, FL
Vehicle:2001 996TT seal |
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looks amazing, ken.... DO let me know if you ever do wanna do a set for someone... WOW im very impressed....... ese |
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12-18-2005, 11:43 PM | #10 |
Scooby Specialist
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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Location: Henderson, KY
Vehicle:2012 Gas Saver |
FYI Ken, Crucial port matchs the manifolds....no need to take more material than is needed....your's looks good though...
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12-19-2005, 12:00 AM | #11 |
Scooby Guru
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Vehicle:'12 Tony Kart EVRR '99 E36 M3 Estoril Blue |
these guys have cleaner work imo compared to both crucial and ken(no offense to you ken). plus, they have core exchanges available. www.gotpnp.com
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12-19-2005, 12:12 AM | #12 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 72263
Join Date: Oct 2004
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SCIC
Location: Los Angeles
Vehicle:2008 Impreza STi Dark Grey Metallic |
Quote:
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12-19-2005, 12:34 AM | #13 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 88322
Join Date: Jun 2005
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MWSOC
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Vehicle:2009 BMW 135i |
I say overport the thing. Let there be a lip from the manifold to the head. I'd only worry about weakening the manifold, making it prone to cracks.
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12-19-2005, 04:06 AM | #14 |
Former Vendor
Member#: 89285
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region:
BAIC
Location: Bay Area, CA
Vehicle:'98 EJ20 Legacy w/ JDM RA tranny & '04 FXT |
Couple things:
Ours are not extrude honed. That's not how airflow works... it's a hyraulic system and doesn't really apply. Ours are ported by hand at our partner's shop that specializes in cylinder head porting and design, has been doing it for 30+ years, and does much of the R&D for MazdaSpeed, among others. Our ported manifolds are port matched to the cylinder head exhaust ports, port matched to the cross pipe, and port matched to an uppipe. Going larger does nothing but slow exhaust gas velocity and cool it down. You might make a tiny bit of power at the extreme top end but the rest of the powerband will suffer. After porting, the inner diameter of our OEM ported manifolds is the same as, for example, a GT Spec, Gruppe-S, APS, GP Moto, etc, header. Bigger is not always better, and in this case it is most definitely not. Additionally, cast iron is highly succeptable to cracking if it is not thick enough. You never see thin cast iron, while you often see thin cast aluminum and thin cast stainless, etc. Our shop specifically noted that they would absolutely not port to the amount that Ken posted because they felt it would be highly likely to crack. The amount of material where the runners meet the flange is not very thick as-is. Work must be done carefully to preserve an appropriate amount of thickness. We assure that this is done, and luckily it doesn't comprimise the ability to port-match the OEM manifolds. I need to get a picture up here of our manifolds after being ported but before being coated. The jet black interior makes it hard to see how smooth and uniform the metal is. The surface looks essentially identical to Ken's... basically a ~ 100 grit smoothness. After being aluminum oxide blasted and coated, those tiny scratches are gone. $200 is a very good deal. By no means is it a budget job. It doesn't take very long. I don't know how long it takes in a garage, but this is a professional porting shop. The quality of work is amazing, and the tools, knowledge, and skill there make this -- full interior port matching and polishing of the OEM manifold -- an extremely easy job compared to doing custom cylinder heads involving moving exhaust ports 2" to the left and custom-shaping every port on the heads from scratch, and flow benching each step of the way. We usually charge ~ $175 to thermal barrier coat a set of headers like the Gruppe-S ones (think GT Spec with no uppipe). $200 for the full port work and coat of the OEM manifold is a hell of a deal. They also outperform any unequal length header on the market!!! I'm sorry to dissapoint, but we wouldn't port the manifold that much. If you have worked heads or JDM heads with larger ports, we can port match to that also. However, even if asked I don't think we would go any larger. There's just no reason whatsoever to do it and it's definitely comprimising the integrity of the metal. Ken -- I know and respect you and what you do for the community. It looks like you did a really great job on those manifolds and I saw them in the past and thought they were impressive. I'm not trying to talk down on it... just trying to explain what we do, why, and how... Jeremy |
12-19-2005, 07:10 AM | #15 | ||
Scooby Guru
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:2003 GGA MBP 12.9 / 105+ |
as far as being "too large," if/when i ever do headwork, i'll take that back to the gasket line too. then it will all be portmatched.
as freon pointed out, the only thing having a larger diameter manifold inlet will do is create an anti-reversion step. while i was working the parts over, i learned to determine the thickness of how much meat was left by the sound it made with the carbide bits. with some experience you can hear how thin it is. i understand that a commercial entity offering a product has a higher level of longevity and reliability demands from their customers than does a DIY job. that said, when my manifolds crack i'll let everyone know! the manifolds have been on the car since before my daughter was born, so that's more than 7 months, and there have been some pretty large temperature swings during that time. so far no issues. Quote:
Quote:
the "garage" (as if that makes it less professional) i did most of the heavy shaping in had a 125gallon, 240vac, 20scfm, 140psi compressor in it, and with a 1/4" 20k rpm die grinder running at full tilt it would never stop running. not only did i gasket match, but i brought that line as far down into the bore as the wall thickness would allow (ie around the flat portions of #3 and #4 runners) and as far as my tools would reach. in other words, it was feathered as much as possible, as you can tell from the pics. i estimate i have about 10 hrs of actual tool-on-iron time in the P+P portion of the project. that includes carbide/stone/flapwheel, on the two cast collectors and the rolled steel crossover. there's 9 openenings to hit. those double cut 1/2" carbide bits are the most aggressive thing i'd want to use.. if you're not paying attention you will ruin the work in about 10 seconds. perhaps a "professional porting shop" has some secret tools mere mortals don't have access to, but i don't think so. the bottom line is that it DOES take a long time if you're taking a lot of metal out, and you're doing it by hand, and you're doing it carefully. (for more info on what i did, click here.) jm2c ken |
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12-19-2005, 08:20 AM | #16 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:2003 GGA MBP 12.9 / 105+ |
Quote:
here's a pic of one of the LH gotpnp collectors: again, you could take off another mm or two on both of those inlets. you can see both lines from the crush gasket, inside and outside. i took it right to the inside line. nice polish though, which is good for keeping carbon off the walls. again, to do what i did and spend as much time it would be quite expensive to pay someone else's labor. |
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12-19-2005, 05:00 PM | #17 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 45796
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Dallas
Vehicle:2004 STi Bacon and Eggs |
Will Port Matching the stock manifolds lower EGT's? I hear users of aftermarket headers will get a 60-100 deg. C temp drop...
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12-19-2005, 09:09 PM | #18 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 101506
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Jose CA
Vehicle:96 Turbo Cobra Black |
Bigger is not alway's better remember by opening up the manifold to much not only is it prone to cracking but you are also lowering the velocity that helps spool he turbo.. Our turbo charged race engines make over 1000 hp with only a 1 5/8 primary
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12-19-2005, 10:46 PM | #19 |
Scooby Specialist
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Tri-State
Location: Neanderthal Racing
Vehicle:04 CUTN EDG STi neanderthal blackout |
it shouldn't take you longer than a day to port match the manifold back to the gaskets with a die grinder. by the time you install the replacement manifold you could be finished the one youve got.
heat wrap the center pipe over the flex joint and use an extra wrap on both ends. when you replace the stock heat shield, don't bother reusing the inside clamps. the heat wrap will keep it snug in the shield with just the outside bolts and the double wrapped ends. it's dirty job. were long sleeves and goggles. |
12-20-2005, 04:12 AM | #20 | ||
Former Vendor
Member#: 89285
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region:
BAIC
Location: Bay Area, CA
Vehicle:'98 EJ20 Legacy w/ JDM RA tranny & '04 FXT |
Quote:
I wouldn't be too quick to say "obviously." Obviously we don't have a set of your manifolds as done by you, but the access to flow benches and easy dyno time makes R&D quite doable. So obviously we don't have yours to flow but that doesn't mean we don't have the data to support. Additionally, it's not a foreign concept but something that is simply well-known and comes with the level of experience that the shop has. Sometimes you don't have to go extreme in order to test it to find out what is already known.... or assumed... Admittedly sometimes things don't work how one would expect, so if a very, very ported version turned out to work better across the powerband I wouldn't jump off a bridge, but I would be surprised. The message I was trying to convey with that possibly-over-blunt statement was that increasing the volume in the manifold *will* slow spool-up and will *probably* negatively affect mid range as well depending on the difference in the manifolds in question. Besides consideration of a very small lip helping with exhaust pulse reverberation, any additional porting is not going to have a positive effect. Quick gas expansion as it leaves the cylinder heads will cool things off, slow things down, and likely cause turbulence. As you know, a lot of the turbo's ability to spool is attributed to the pressure differential on either side of the exhaust housing. High pressure on the manifold side and low pressure on the turbine outlet side. That's why a free-flowing turboback will create quicker spool, and aftermarket headers and oversized uppipes will create slower spool. Reducing the effective backpressure on the engine side of the turbo makes the pressure differential smaller and spool suffers. Porting the manifolds is extremely effective, but only to a point. After that you are likely not making any incremental benefit and possibly just hurting powerband potential. ....and for the record, Crucial makes ~ $10 on a P&P and coated manifold... so this isn't a high stakes games for us, either . It's a service, among the others we offer, that I wanted to be able to provide to the Subaru community, which I love, from a shop that really knows what they are doing. The shop doesn't usually deal with individual customers; just race teams and companies and whatnot, so Crucial makes it possible for you/me/us to send a single downpipe or a single manifold or set of cylinder heads in for work by taking care of all of the customer-related details so the shop can concentrate on what they do well. Since I don't consider our place in this arrangement very difficult or a main part of Crucial's business (which is selling our brand of parts, obviously ), Crucial makes an extremely small amount of $ from it. Really not even enough to fully justify the amount of time I spend on it, but I enjoy doing it and the finished product is totally worth it! <<< probably way too much info from a vendor, but there ya have it. Jeremy |
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12-20-2005, 08:29 AM | #21 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region:
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Location: lincoln, ri
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Quote:
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12-20-2005, 08:29 AM | #22 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Quote:
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12-20-2005, 08:55 AM | #23 | ||||
Scooby Guru
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:2003 GGA MBP 12.9 / 105+ |
Quote:
and if you've got a report/data on that, do you have one with header inlets the size of mine, with a very gentle 3" feather? i'm sure i'm not alone in saying i'd love to see that. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
while that is 5th gear, the spool is overall about 200 rpm faster in the very cold air right now in NE. i've got no issue providing logs to prove this. what you seem to be insinuating is that a local increase in diameter of the headers at the ports will end up in reducing exhaust gas velocity at the turbine inducer/volute. this is not necessarily the case, since the nozzle size has not changed, and the total mass of exhaust gas has not changed. the only other variable is density which is related to pressure and temperature. my manifolds are WELL insulated and the drop in temperature is minimal. IF there is a local pressure drop at the header inlet because of an increased primary diameter, the pressure will increase when measured at various points along the exhaust tract due to the now-decreasing diameter. the fact is that you COULD NOT do what i've done to my headers and coat them for $200. well, maybe you could if you hired illegal immigrants to do the work for $5 an hour... i've already stated my estimated tooling time is 10 hours. we all know you're not spending that amount of time on each header, and no one expects you to for the price you're asking. i think $200 is a great price, and gives the buyer a nice product and service that is a definite step up from bone stock headers. |
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12-20-2005, 11:35 AM | #24 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 101506
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Location: San Jose CA
Vehicle:96 Turbo Cobra Black |
We are willing to go as big as the customer wants. Will it produce more power for our time spent only the dyno can tell but as I said before it only take us a 1 5/8 primary to make 1000+ hp on a 4.6 so how big is really needed ? These should only take a hours tops to port each if you have the right bits and setup correctly.. We are also able to massage 90+ percent of the entire manifold..
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12-20-2005, 11:50 AM | #25 | ||
Scooby Guru
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region:
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Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:2003 GGA MBP 12.9 / 105+ |
Quote:
and how long are the primaries? Quote:
and i'm sorry, but spending one hour to do the manifold will not result in the same outcome as i've achieved... not without a preprogrammed CNC machine. not a chance. i gotta ask, who is trying to sell something here, me or you? |
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