Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday September 21, 2018
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > FA Series Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-04-2018, 12:47 AM   #1801
GlarryHoodDIT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 460907
Join Date: Jan 2017
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
Phatroned

Default

It's cruise knock, not really something to worry about. The knock sensors are crazy sensitive compared with the EJs and thus record a lot more cruise knock. Unfortunately, cruise knock alone will often drop your DAM on OTS maps and the stock tune.

We need a 3rd gear, 3000-6500 WOT pull. Take a log of just that and post it here and we can evaluate from there.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
GlarryHoodDIT is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 03-04-2018, 12:52 AM   #1802
rzmwrx
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 481396
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Kansas City
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
It's cruise knock, not really something to worry about. The knock sensors are crazy sensitive compared with the EJs and thus record a lot more cruise knock. Unfortunately, cruise knock alone will often drop your DAM on OTS maps and the stock tune.

We need a 3rd gear, 3000-6500 WOT pull. Take a log of just that and post it here and we can evaluate from there.

Even though this just started, nothing to worry about? If you mean "cruise knock" as in cruise control, I wasn't using CC. Regardless, I just find it odd that this is new. I would think I would have seen it from day one of adding the AP.
I'll try to log some WOT pulls tomorrow and see what happens.
rzmwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2018, 12:59 AM   #1803
GlarryHoodDIT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 460907
Join Date: Jan 2017
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
Phatroned

Default

No, I'm not referring to cruise control.

Read these, they are invaluable. It's likely false knock.

https://www.cobbtuning.com/subaru-kn...logic-changes/
https://innovativetuning.com/subaru-...knock-control/
https://cobbtuning.zendesk.com/hc/en...ck-Corrections

"It shouldn’t be surprising to see a drop in DAM on the DIT vehicles (as it is on early cars where DAM being less than ideal is an indicator there is an issue) especially running lower octane fuels. How long the DAM takes to return to 1 is not indicative of how serious the knock event was and does not mean the car is still knocking. In order to advance the DAM on DIT vehicles, you have to drive in specific load/RPM ranges without knock."



As to why it just started happening probably a coincidence. It's more surprising it wasn't doing it from the beginning.
GlarryHoodDIT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2018, 01:13 AM   #1804
rzmwrx
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 481396
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Kansas City
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
No, I'm not referring to cruise control.

Read these, they are invaluable. It's likely false knock.

https://www.cobbtuning.com/subaru-kn...logic-changes/
https://innovativetuning.com/subaru-...knock-control/
https://cobbtuning.zendesk.com/hc/en...ck-Corrections

"It shouldn’t be surprising to see a drop in DAM on the DIT vehicles (as it is on early cars where DAM being less than ideal is an indicator there is an issue) especially running lower octane fuels. How long the DAM takes to return to 1 is not indicative of how serious the knock event was and does not mean the car is still knocking. In order to advance the DAM on DIT vehicles, you have to drive in specific load/RPM ranges without knock."



As to why it just started happening probably a coincidence. It's more surprising it wasn't doing it from the beginning.
I had read the first link before. I was hoping I was being paranoid and "catching what I don't want to catch" like the article says.
Third link appears to have been taken down. But hadn't seen the 2nd one. So thanks!
rzmwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2018, 01:22 AM   #1805
GlarryHoodDIT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 460907
Join Date: Jan 2017
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
Phatroned

Default

Nothing in your logs looked to horrible, nothing past 2* timing. Was your AC or defrost on? Those are notorious for producing false knock.

Just google Cobb Knock Control and read the first 5-6 articles.

We've seen logs in here with DAM at .062 and the car was still pulling 3-4-5-6* of timing, yours is considerably more mild than that.
GlarryHoodDIT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2018, 01:32 AM   #1806
rzmwrx
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 481396
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Kansas City
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
Nothing in your logs looked to horrible, nothing past 2* timing. Was your AC or defrost on? Those are notorious for producing false knock.

Just google Cobb Knock Control and read the first 5-6 articles.

We've seen logs in here with DAM at .062 and the car was still pulling 3-4-5-6* of timing, yours is considerably more mild than that.
No AC or defrost. I realized the AC causing false reading a few days after I installed the accessport. Kept getting feedback knock as soon as I turned on the heater.
Just got worried cause I hadn't seen any DAM at all up until two days ago. Now I've seen it twice, and one did not correct itself and a bunch if FKL, which started after first DAM correction, which was very rare up until this point. Now it's happening 'a lot.' But then again i know nothing about tuning so like you said its probably no big deal.Maybes weather related or crappy gas? I'll keep an eye on it and keep logging and try to find a gas station with 93 near me.
rzmwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2018, 02:16 AM   #1807
GlarryHoodDIT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 460907
Join Date: Jan 2017
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
Phatroned

Default

I'm not sure what you mean by "I hadn't seen any DAM at all up until two days ago". I'm assuming you mean DAM dropping? It should be a 1.0. .812 isn't too bad. When I was running OTS maps I was constantly having DAM drops and seeing crazy FKL and FBK on my monitors even with my DAM at .750 or even .500. I was thinking the worst obviously, but in the end I just don't think the OTS maps played that well with my car. As soon as I got E Tuned my problems went away. Not to say my car never knocks, I'll see knock during cruise if my AC or defrost is on and maybe 1/50 WOT I'll see a 1.4, but it's much more manageable now.

If you can find 93 try that, if you have access to E85 try running 1-2 gallons MAX PER TANK and see if that helps at all. 1-2 gallons of E85 should effectively raise your octane to 92-93, but if you put more than 1-2 gallons your car might have issues with matching fueling targets.
GlarryHoodDIT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2018, 09:20 AM   #1808
_Makaveli
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 448404
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: CT
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
CWP

Default

Can you check out my datalog
https://datazap.me/u/makaveli/cobb-s...14-16-19-20-22
This is the best I could get, 3rd gear WOT.
I just wanna make sure my car is running good
_Makaveli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2018, 09:44 AM   #1809
rzmwrx
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 481396
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Kansas City
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by "I hadn't seen any DAM at all up until two days ago". I'm assuming you mean DAM dropping?
I mean it had never been anything but 1.0 for a month since I installed the accessport. Now I'm seeing fluctuations and the only change has been weather.
rzmwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2018, 11:18 AM   #1810
gn4rwhals
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 453427
Join Date: Aug 2016
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Detroit, MI
Vehicle:
2017 WRX
Crystal White Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Makaveli View Post
Can you check out my datalog
https://datazap.me/u/makaveli/cobb-s...14-16-19-20-22
This is the best I could get, 3rd gear WOT.
I just wanna make sure my car is running good
You are underboosting through most of the pull, try the HWG map if they have one for the ETS intake, or look into getting a tune for your mods.

Some small -1.41 FKL in the 5k range, keep an eye on it but nothing to freak out about. AFR is right in line with commanded, so that is good.

Also start your pulls at 3k, starting at 2k is lugging the engine a bit.
gn4rwhals is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2018, 12:10 PM   #1811
_Makaveli
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 448404
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: CT
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gn4rwhals View Post
You are underboosting through most of the pull, try the HWG map if they have one for the ETS intake, or look into getting a tune for your mods.

Some small -1.41 FKL in the 5k range, keep an eye on it but nothing to freak out about. AFR is right in line with commanded, so that is good.

Also start your pulls at 3k, starting at 2k is lugging the engine a bit.
Ok thanks I'll try out the HWG map, I'm gonna run OTS for like 2-3 more months then look at getting an E-tune hopefully that will fix everything
_Makaveli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2018, 12:55 PM   #1812
YungBoba
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 450808
Join Date: Jul 2016
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Vehicle:
2017 WRX Premium
WR Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rzmwrx View Post
I mean it had never been anything but 1.0 for a month since I installed the accessport. Now I'm seeing fluctuations and the only change has been weather.
91 octane and OTS map is your culprit. These cars are extremely sensitive to fuel quality and even on an OTS map designed for 91 octane, you're still gonna have knock and DAM drops. Best thing to do is to get an etune or a protune.
YungBoba is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2018, 07:57 PM   #1813
simpleJ
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 391748
Join Date: May 2014
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2015 WRX CWP (sold)
2019 STi CWP

Default

https://datazap.me/u/simplej/bren-lo...5&zoom=446-845

FBO minus headers and TGVd, tuned by Bren.

Last edited by simpleJ; 03-04-2018 at 08:51 PM.
simpleJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2018, 11:24 PM   #1814
YungBoba
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 450808
Join Date: Jul 2016
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Vehicle:
2017 WRX Premium
WR Blue Pearl

Default

Took a log this morning.

"Stage 1.5" WRX
-TGV deletes
-EGR deletes
-Grimmspeed EBCS
-Grimmspeed charge pipe
-Grimmspeed TMIC
-Cobb catback
-Dyno tune - Ron Watson/Phatbotti on 91 Octane

https://datazap.me/u/yungboba/stage-...a=3-9-12-23-25
YungBoba is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2018, 01:13 PM   #1815
ayau
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 332408
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

How can a good protune have no knock (not yet anyway) than stock tune, yet make more power? What exactly are tuners adjusting to reduce the chance of knock?
ayau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2018, 01:17 PM   #1816
simpleJ
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 391748
Join Date: May 2014
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2015 WRX CWP (sold)
2019 STi CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayau View Post
How can a good protune have no knock (not yet anyway) than stock tune, yet make more power? What exactly are tuners adjusting to reduce the chance of knock?
LOL the knock sensors
simpleJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2018, 01:24 PM   #1817
ayau
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 332408
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by simpleJ View Post
LOL the knock sensors
Lol hopefully a reputable tuner wouldn't do that. How do you know if the sensors are turned off without asking your tuner? Are the knock sensors on or off, or can the sensitivity be lowered?
ayau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2018, 02:31 PM   #1818
simpleJ
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 391748
Join Date: May 2014
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2015 WRX CWP (sold)
2019 STi CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayau View Post
Lol hopefully a reputable tuner wouldn't do that. How do you know if the sensors are turned off without asking your tuner? Are the knock sensors on or off, or can the sensitivity be lowered?
You’d think that wouldn’t you...
They all modify it- they have to to some degree to make the car run correctly as the FA’s knock controlnstrategy is kind of whacked from the factory in that it picks up all kinds of noise, some shut it off so they don’t get calls and emails from kids who don’t understand knock

Multiple ways to skin a cat here:
Unplug knock sensor and turn off cel
Global reduction in sensitivity, or off
Alter the “listening” ranges
Etc

Yes you can tell if you know how to read the knock sensing in logs.

You should be seeing at least -1.41’s on a pretty regular basis and some FKLs under load. Probably not more -4.22ish cruising under load up hill and -2.81 at wot. If you see above that your wick is probably turned up too high, and if you’re not seeing at least those values every now and then you probably have your sensors turned off. That’s why a little knock every now and then is actually a good sign: it means your tuner is responsible.

“My toon never knocks, bro” is bs, it does, all the time, your ap just isn’t recording it because your ecu can’t hear it.
simpleJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2018, 03:12 PM   #1819
GlarryHoodDIT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 460907
Join Date: Jan 2017
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
Phatroned

Default

Phatron tuned with EGRD/TGVD- I see 1.4 blip a few times if I have the Ac/Defrost on- never see it at WOT since I've gone flex. I used to see it every 1/10 WOT runs on 91, but since using Ethanol I've never seen it at WOT- except during logging. I'm confident in Ron and his tuning strategies, he's one of the few Id let touch my cars ECU.
GlarryHoodDIT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2018, 03:42 PM   #1820
ayau
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 332408
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
Phatron tuned with EGRD/TGVD- I see 1.4 blip a few times if I have the Ac/Defrost on- never see it at WOT since I've gone flex. I used to see it every 1/10 WOT runs on 91, but since using Ethanol I've never seen it at WOT- except during logging. I'm confident in Ron and his tuning strategies, he's one of the few Id let touch my cars ECU.
I'm also Phatron tuned with EGR, TGV, ECBS on 93.

I only recall seeing one instance of -1.41 at around 6.3k RPM during a 3rd gear WOT revision.

I haven't seen a single knock since then. I also don't have my AC/defrost turned on. I'll enable them and see if the ECU picks up any false knocks.

Maybe 93 actually makes a difference? Who knows. But I'd expect the ECU to pick up some false knocks unless the knock sensors have been aggressively desensitized.
ayau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2018, 07:21 PM   #1821
ayau
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 332408
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayau View Post
I'm also Phatron tuned with EGR, TGV, ECBS on 93.

I only recall seeing one instance of -1.41 at around 6.3k RPM during a 3rd gear WOT revision.

I haven't seen a single knock since then. I also don't have my AC/defrost turned on. I'll enable them and see if the ECU picks up any false knocks.

Maybe 93 actually makes a difference? Who knows. But I'd expect the ECU to pick up some false knocks unless the knock sensors have been aggressively desensitized.
I just drove around with the AC on and saw -1.41 feedback knock. I guess knock sensor is still on. Just don’t know if they were desensitized.
ayau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2018, 02:36 AM   #1822
comp3wrx
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 473898
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: SF Bay Area
Vehicle:
2018 WRX

Default

2018 WRX Premium w/ Performance Package
- Transmission: 6MT
- Fuel: 91 Octane (California)
- Mods: ETS intake w/ airbox
- Map: BrenTuning E-Tune Stage1+ETS Rev6
- Datalog: 3rd Gear Pull
https://datazap.me/u/comp3wrx/2018-0...og=0&data=7-28

How does this look?

Before installing the ETS intake, I tried out the Cobb Stg1 91oct OTS and MAPerformance Stg1 91oct v6 beta tunes. Both tunes eventually had the DAM drop to 0.8xx and could never get above 0.875 even after multiple tanks of gas from different gas stations. The current BrenTuning map feels a bit slower than the MAPerformance map, but the DAM hasn't dropped from 1.0 for over 2 months. We'll see how it does in hot weather this summer. That's when the DAM drops occurred with the Cobb and MAPerformance maps.
comp3wrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2018, 06:35 AM   #1823
simpleJ
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 391748
Join Date: May 2014
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2015 WRX CWP (sold)
2019 STi CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayau View Post
I just drove around with the AC on and saw -1.41 feedback knock. I guess knock sensor is still on. Just don’t know if they were desensitized.
Probably, just not in that range, and probably not in a detrimental way.

You should see 1.41 or even 2.81 almost everytime you drive the car
simpleJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2018, 06:37 AM   #1824
simpleJ
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 391748
Join Date: May 2014
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2015 WRX CWP (sold)
2019 STi CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by comp3wrx View Post
2018 WRX Premium w/ Performance Package
- Transmission: 6MT
- Fuel: 91 Octane (California)
- Mods: ETS intake w/ airbox
- Map: BrenTuning E-Tune Stage1+ETS Rev6
- Datalog: 3rd Gear Pull
https://datazap.me/u/comp3wrx/2018-0...og=0&data=7-28

How does this look?

Before installing the ETS intake, I tried out the Cobb Stg1 91oct OTS and MAPerformance Stg1 91oct v6 beta tunes. Both tunes eventually had the DAM drop to 0.8xx and could never get above 0.875 even after multiple tanks of gas from different gas stations. The current BrenTuning map feels a bit slower than the MAPerformance map, but the DAM hasn't dropped from 1.0 for over 2 months. We'll see how it does in hot weather this summer. That's when the DAM drops occurred with the Cobb and MAPerformance maps.
Lookin’ pretty good to me

I can tell you still have the factory boost restrictor in though lol
simpleJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2018, 10:49 AM   #1825
tegxsi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 446029
Join Date: May 2016
Location: East Bay, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by comp3wrx View Post
2018 WRX Premium w/ Performance Package
- Transmission: 6MT
- Fuel: 91 Octane (California)
- Mods: ETS intake w/ airbox
- Map: BrenTuning E-Tune Stage1+ETS Rev6
- Datalog: 3rd Gear Pull
https://datazap.me/u/comp3wrx/2018-0...og=0&data=7-28

How does this look?

Before installing the ETS intake, I tried out the Cobb Stg1 91oct OTS and MAPerformance Stg1 91oct v6 beta tunes. Both tunes eventually had the DAM drop to 0.8xx and could never get above 0.875 even after multiple tanks of gas from different gas stations. The current BrenTuning map feels a bit slower than the MAPerformance map, but the DAM hasn't dropped from 1.0 for over 2 months. We'll see how it does in hot weather this summer. That's when the DAM drops occurred with the Cobb and MAPerformance maps.

It should be slow... I don't see much WOT ignition advance. Maybe the next rev?
tegxsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2018 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2017, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.