Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday March 29, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning > Commercial ECU Reflashes

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-24-2007, 04:06 PM   #1
skanave
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 133716
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin, TX
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT Wagon
Atlantic Blue Pearl

Default Open Source Tuning, good or bad?

I am actually very in favor of the open source movement both in the automotive world and the computer world. Some people
say that open source is a bad thing. Lets hear what you have to say?
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
skanave is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 01-24-2007, 04:11 PM   #2
page02wrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 124053
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Back to BONE STOCK

Default

No experience with it.... i hope its a good thing... I'm on Step 1: Know what you're doing <---- this is where I'm at
page02wrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 04:15 PM   #3
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

I don't see how it could be bad. You don't like free?
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 04:17 PM   #4
page02wrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 124053
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Back to BONE STOCK

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
I don't see how it could be bad. You don't like free?
free + $91

but that beats the price of AP/UTEC/Nemisis ANYDAY
page02wrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 04:18 PM   #5
Zumble
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 34860
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
2005 Forester CGM

Default

One bad thing is that you have more "tuned" cars out there running poorly because they weren't properly tuned by a professional.
Zumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 04:27 PM   #6
LastResort
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99289
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by page02wrx View Post
free + $91

but that beats the price of AP/UTEC/Nemisis ANYDAY
Not technically true, you can borrow a cable, and not be inviolation of copyright/end user agreements. More power in the hands of the consumer is always better.
LastResort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 04:29 PM   #7
skanave
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 133716
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin, TX
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT Wagon
Atlantic Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
I don't see how it could be bad. You don't like free?

Some people have issues with it. Not me of course
skanave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 04:32 PM   #8
s2ktosti
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70151
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Jersey Shore
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Limited
Black

Default

The biggest problem is you get weekend wannabe tuners with little or no experience screwing with values in the ecu they don't understand. Then they upload it onto a site and tell people how it worked wonders on THEIR car with a disclaimer "use at your own risk".

You have people similar to the above who just lean the car out and make lots of power... until something goes BOOM and they pour the what's left of their pistons out the oil pan.

Open source isn't a bad thing. If only knowledgeable people where allowed to use it I'd be all for it. Unfortunately you have a bunch of wannabe's screwing with crap they don't understand, who pass on their screwed up crap to a bunch of other wannabe's.

I personally don't care what happens to them or their cars, I just don't like it when they decide that the "experts" who invested their time and money into developing good working tunes give it away to support their wannabe status.

Good tuning takes a lot of time and money that wannabe's would rather have someone else expend. Its really not fair for expect a real tuner basically do all the work for them for free. Dyno's are expensive to buy and maintain, time isn't cheap either.

(btw, I read the origin of this post so I know where its coming from and am making comments specifically regarding that discussion)
s2ktosti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 04:45 PM   #9
614inda617
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 55291
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Columbus, OH
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
WRB

Default

The big bonus with automotive open source tools for me is lowering the barrier to entry to learn how to do this on my own. To do this right I'm still going to have to pay for a WB O2 but that cost would have been there whether I used OS tools or not.

The thing I would guess to be a problem is the person that sees "free" and thinks that if it's freely available then it must be safe for anyone to use. There were plenty of people doing dumb things before free tools, but I can only imagine it's going to get worse now.

That said f'em. America is overly protective as is. I say give them the gun loaded, safety off, and pointed at their heads.
614inda617 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 04:47 PM   #10
Zumble
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 34860
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
2005 Forester CGM

Default

If you want a pro to tune the car go for it. I think its the best choice to pay someone to tune your car on a dyno. This is for most safety and most power.

If you want to use open source then its great. In the hands of the right person its very powerful. In the hands of the wrong person its either disasterous or the results are eehhh.
Zumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 04:52 PM   #11
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumble View Post
One bad thing is that you have more "tuned" cars out there running poorly because they weren't properly tuned by a professional.
As more professionals begin to use these tools and passing the savings on to the customer, you'll have more cars that are professionally tuned that normally would have no tune at all.
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 04:55 PM   #12
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by page02wrx View Post
free + $91

but that beats the price of AP/UTEC/Nemisis ANYDAY
The cable is hardware. You don't use free open source software and then say, "it's not free - I had to buy a computer."
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 05:02 PM   #13
Zumble
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 34860
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
2005 Forester CGM

Default

Though it sounds like the case I don't think so. I hope its the case so everyone is happy but I don't think so. Dyno time cost is dyno time cost. It's not cheap. They have to make dyno time cheaper too then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
As more professionals begin to use these tools and passing the savings on to the customer, you'll have more cars that are professionally tuned that normally would have no tune at all.
Zumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 05:07 PM   #14
LastResort
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99289
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumble View Post
Though it sounds like the case I don't think so. I hope its the case so everyone is happy but I don't think so. Dyno time cost is dyno time cost. It's not cheap. They have to make dyno time cheaper too then.
The cost of a license from any "comercial" vendor is what, $700. If someone can get the same tune, with the open source software, in the same time, that might be another 600-800 bucks. That's like 1/2 off, that's a massively lowers the cost of entrance.
LastResort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 05:15 PM   #15
Zumble
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 34860
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
2005 Forester CGM

Default

Not any, just ecutek..

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastResort View Post
The cost of a license from any "comercial" vendor is what, $700. If someone can get the same tune, with the open source software, in the same time, that might be another 600-800 bucks. That's like 1/2 off, that's a massively lowers the cost of entrance.
Zumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 05:16 PM   #16
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

I have heard of professional tuners using these tools and only charging dyno time ($200-$300 typical stage 2 tune). They still offer Ecutek tunes and/or ProTunes but give the user the option if they wish to save some cash.
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 05:24 PM   #17
LastResort
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99289
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumble View Post
Not any, just ecutek..
What about Cobb? 600, right? That's a license as well.
LastResort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 05:25 PM   #18
page02wrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 124053
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Back to BONE STOCK

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
The cable is hardware. You don't use free open source software and then say, "it's not free - I had to buy a computer."
lol thats a good point

but regardless to reflash you need access to a cable, not to mention a computer oh god these prices are adding up quick!!!

free if you have a friend with one
free if you find one laying on the street
free if you find a WANNABE!!!!

not free if you have to buy a cable

i think its great what these guys are doing but like posted above, its really opening the doors to two things... cheap professional tuning and wannabe's (like me ) thinking they know what they are doing.
page02wrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 05:35 PM   #19
Zumble
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 34860
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
2005 Forester CGM

Default

Last time I checked, 600 bucks used to get you a black box that held 10 realtime maps and 10 base maps which you can use for tunes or valet mode anti theft and such. It also reads codes, resets the ecu, reads boost etc. Now.. 600 dollars gets you even more.. so buzz... try again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastResort View Post
What about Cobb? 600, right? That's a license as well.
Zumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 05:45 PM   #20
LastResort
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99289
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumble View Post
Last time I checked, 600 bucks used to get you a black box that held 10 realtime maps and 10 base maps which you can use for tunes or valet mode anti theft and such. It also reads codes, resets the ecu, reads boost etc. Now.. 600 dollars gets you even more.. so buzz... try again.
It's still the only way to use Cobbs maps, is it not? The box is still only licensed to be used only one vehicle, is it not? The maps are not licensed to be removed from one car and used on another, are they not? So. Unless there is another, cheaper, way to avoid paying for the license when getting a Cobb Protune, you're full of ****.
LastResort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 05:50 PM   #21
Zumble
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 34860
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
2005 Forester CGM

Default

Dude.. you know what? I wrote a program for my PC and it doesn't run on a Mac. Does it mean it's licensed? Just because the cobb maps only work with the AP (which is not true really) doesn't mean it's a license. The AP is not a license like ecutek. You get something for your 600 dollars. Stop twisting this to what it's not. You can use the AP without protune maps. You buy the AP, you can use it with a stage 1/2 map that's included with the AP. Cobb developed protuner software that makes maps to work with their AP. What's so wrong about that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastResort View Post
It's still the only way to use Cobbs maps, is it not? The box is still only licensed to be used only one vehicle, is it not? The maps are not licensed to be removed from one car and used on another, are they not? So. Unless there is another, cheaper, way to avoid paying for the license when getting a Cobb Protune, you're full of ****.
Zumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 05:54 PM   #22
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

I think the $600 Ecutek license now includes deltadash and their EasyEcu software which lets you switch maps (not real-time).
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 05:56 PM   #23
Zumble
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 34860
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
2005 Forester CGM

Default

Deltadash is nice.. EasyECU is still a joke in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
I think the $600 Ecutek license now includes deltadash and their EasyEcu software which lets you switch maps (not real-time).
Zumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 05:59 PM   #24
LastResort
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99289
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumble View Post
Dude.. you know what? I wrote a program for my PC and it doesn't run on a Mac. Does it mean it's licensed? Just because the cobb maps only work with the AP (which is not true really) doesn't mean it's a license. The AP is not a license like ecutek. You get something for your 600 dollars. Stop twisting this to what it's not. You can use the AP without protune maps. You buy the AP, you can use it with a stage 1/2 map that's included with the AP. Cobb developed protuner software that makes maps to work with their AP. What's so wrong about that?
Go over to the Cobb forums, and ask about using the AP with multiple vehicles. Then tell me what they said. It's licensed for one vehicle only, it may provide more features, but it's still licensed.
LastResort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 06:15 PM   #25
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumble View Post
Deltadash is nice.. EasyECU is still a joke in my opinion.
Right, but at least Ecutek customers are now getting something for the $600. From what I understand, that includes a basic tune with some tuners, but I could be wrong.
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Open Source tuning or AP protuners? vasteve20 Mid Atlantic Impreza Club -- MAIC 24 01-11-2010 01:47 AM
Anybody in Harrisburg good with open source tuning? mgoss79 Mid Atlantic Impreza Club -- MAIC 2 12-03-2009 09:22 AM
V4 stand alone or open source tune? Rei_Akira Pre-2002 Factory Turbo Powertrain 20 05-04-2009 03:10 PM
Afc tuneing good or bad idea Brandon93boosted Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 5 03-28-2009 01:41 PM
Is there any shop tune open source in IL or around. sexycat Mid West Subaru Owners Club Forum -- MWSOC 7 07-01-2008 02:41 AM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.