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Old 05-17-2011, 01:35 PM   #101
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So you're trying to figure it out too and start whipping out ****wit and insults? I don't get you sometimes. Sometimes so wise and sometimes so irritating.

If you open the client, there are two decimal places in your coin ownership. This implies fractional ownership. I don't understand how it works anymore than you do, but a currency that you can't break down into smaller increments is pretty useless. Considering the problems that appear to be solved in this currency, this seems to be a pretty tiny piece of the puzzle.

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I'm annoyed because you sounded like the dicks on the YouTube video who, when asked straightforward questions, would respond with buzzwords about it being digital and secure and anonymous and ****.

Yes, thanks, we know it's digital and not physical. Obviously you can make fractions digitally. Look! .05! I just made one. But as you said, we don't understand how you'd transfer those fractions.
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:48 PM   #102
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Considering the problems that appear to be solved in this currency, this seems to be a pretty tiny piece of the puzzle.
WHAT PROBLEMS???
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:49 PM   #103
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But as you said, we don't understand how you'd transfer those fractions.
You send them the fraction the same as you send a whole, you just use decimal points. Fractional instances of the coin exist in each person's wallet and each is validated. Seems pretty simple.
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:51 PM   #104
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Still waiting to hear ideas on what all these teraflops of processing power are really being used for.

Because at this point I think we all know that these bitcoins are worthless and this is all just an ingenious ploy to get unsuspecting droves of people processing something so massive that it requires thousands of high-end computers to run constantly.

Edit: I feel like I'm in the middle of the next James Bond flick.
Is it bad that I was sitting here wandering this as well?


Its just a ploy to accelerate the development of SKYNET!!!!!
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:56 PM   #105
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Yes, but people believe it has value and therefore are causing it to have value.

I believe I'm starting to understand this stuff, but it irritates me that this can happen. It's like children inventing an imaginary money.
All fiat currency is invented. Read the story of how Brazil transitioned to the Real sometime. It was pretty much exactly like that, except theirs was called a 'Unit of Real Value' instead of bitcoin or Euro.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:02 PM   #106
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You guys are using the term fiat currency in a very weak way, something like "arbitrarily valued". A more stringent definition is money established by sovereign law. One of the reasons that the dollar has value is that the US government says it does. I think that part of things is overlooked. The dollar is backed by power of the government, which reinforces its value. Good for all debts public and private and all that. You **** around with the dollar and the guys with guns come and get you. That is a big part of what makes people trust it.

Another thing: I am not so sure this is really in the interest of the common man. I, for one, want there to be a record of my transactions. When I buy something, I want proof that it was purchased so that I can establish ownership of what I bought. It's like using a credit card for major purchases. I don't want to buy a car with a suitcase full of money.

I am about as libertarian as you can get, but I don't think transfer of ownership is a private matter. If you want the society at large to acknowledge your private property, you better damn well be able to prove that you bought it.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:03 PM   #107
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'open source', 'P2P' and 'currency'. I understand what you're saying about 'oh no, you can't duplicate currency' and all that...I don't buy it.

If it gets to the point where there is significant money to be made, someone will find a way to compromise it.
We rely on public / private key pairs on just about any exchange of data desired to be kept secure including electronic fund transfers. Billions exchange hands electronically everyday. The incentive and potential vulnerability would be there bitcoin or not.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:05 PM   #108
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This is backed by mathematics, rather than a govenment.

Given some of the wikileaks revelations lately, I'm more inclined to trust the math...
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:10 PM   #109
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We rely on public / private key pairs on just about any exchange of data desired to be kept secure including electronic fund transfers. Billions exchange hands electronically everyday. The incentive and potential vulnerability would be there bitcoin or not.
When existing transfer networks are compromised, transactions on those networks are no longer trusted. The currency itself survives (assuming it wasn't a central bank network).

If the bitcoin keys are compromised, the entire currency becomes untrusted... That's a problem.

I like the idea in general, I just have a surplus of darts...
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:18 PM   #110
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All fiat currency is invented. Read the story of how Brazil transitioned to the Real sometime. It was pretty much exactly like that, except theirs was called a 'Unit of Real Value' instead of bitcoin or Euro.
There's an ever so slight difference between a currency created and backed by a government, and used as legal tender...

...and the bitcoin.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:23 PM   #111
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There's an ever so slight difference between a currency created and backed by a government, and used as legal tender...

...and the bitcoin.
Yep, try paying your taxes with bitcoin in Brazil.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:32 PM   #112
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We rely on public / private key pairs on just about any exchange of data desired to be kept secure including electronic fund transfers. Billions exchange hands electronically everyday. The incentive and potential vulnerability would be there bitcoin or not.
Except when those billions exchange hands, they don't do so in a system designed specifically for anonymity.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:39 PM   #113
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Except when those billions exchange hands, they don't do so in a system designed specifically for anonymity.
... designed for anonymity and engineered in a P2P space such that all transactions are absolutely totally public.

So yeah. Don't drink too much of the koolaid.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:48 PM   #114
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maybe this has been said..... but im going to state it anyhow....

what if someone has 100,000 bitcoins, obviously this is a lot... especially given that there are only 21mil... what if somehow, some hacker (or hell, a fire) breaks in, and destroys the computer(s) holding these coins? now since there is no tracking system, the coins are gone forever? thus there can only be a total number of 21,900,000 coins ever?
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:51 PM   #115
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... designed for anonymity and engineered in a P2P space such that all transactions are absolutely totally public.

So yeah. Don't drink too much of the koolaid.
I don't think you can have it both ways.

Either the transactions are trackable, or they aren't.

If the 'benefit' of this system is that it is totally anonymous, then you can't turn around and say 'but you're safe because everything is public'.

If 'anonymous' really just means that the end user is defined by a number or nickname, then that's not 'anonymous'.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:52 PM   #116
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I think the economies that will initially drive this are the online gambling/poker sites. Big brother just seized a lot of money from the poker folks and they are pissed. I could see this becoming a standard token for that economy, and as long as people are playing poker and cashing out, it could be viable. It doesn't have to become a global currency that is accepted by everyone in order to succeed - or for that matter, pay out to speculators.



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maybe this has been said..... but im going to state it anyhow....

what if someone has 100,000 bitcoins, obviously this is a lot... especially given that there are only 21mil... what if somehow, some hacker (or hell, a fire) breaks in, and destroys the computer(s) holding these coins? now since there is no tracking system, the coins are gone forever? thus there can only be a total number of 21,900,000 coins ever?
Yes, gone forever. Breakage is built into the system on purpose. Remaining coins may go up in value as a result.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:37 PM   #117
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I don't think you can have it both ways.

Either the transactions are trackable, or they aren't.

If the 'benefit' of this system is that it is totally anonymous, then you can't turn around and say 'but you're safe because everything is public'.

If 'anonymous' really just means that the end user is defined by a number or nickname, then that's not 'anonymous'.
You create addresses in your wallet, others can send money to them. You can make as many addresses as you want. Realistically they're tied to the wallet not an individual or a computer even. I could technically give you my wallet, nothing would tie it to you or me.

Even if transactions are public you don't really know anything about them, you can't even deduce if the same wallet owns 2 separate addresses. Only thing people would be able to do is send bitcoins to your address.

It's sort of like a numbered bank account would be, if the bank never asked for your name when creating it and you just had a complex pass phrase to identify you as the owner.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:50 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by drkwtsn View Post
maybe this has been said..... but im going to state it anyhow....

what if someone has 100,000 bitcoins, obviously this is a lot... especially given that there are only 21mil... what if somehow, some hacker (or hell, a fire) breaks in, and destroys the computer(s) holding these coins? now since there is no tracking system, the coins are gone forever? thus there can only be a total number of 21,900,000 coins ever?
Well... 21 million minus 100,000 is 20,900,000, first off...

And yes. Deflation due to loss is built in. But it will take 140 years for all the bitcoins to be generated, so there's inflation to combat that deflation.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:53 PM   #119
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My question. How can we break it like the stockmarket in Trukz?
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Old 05-17-2011, 04:05 PM   #120
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i could see this put to use in 3rd world countries where people can't easily get to banks, or maybe don't trust them. rural china, parts of africa.
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Old 05-17-2011, 04:43 PM   #121
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i could see this put to use in 3rd world countries where people can't easily get to banks, or maybe don't trust them. rural china, parts of africa.
And yet have computers, internet access, and need web site design services?
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Old 05-17-2011, 04:44 PM   #122
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And yet have computers, internet access, and need web site design services?
It's about the dumbest idea I've heard yet.

This thing's going to take off just due to the sheer number of stupid people who won't understand it and thus will buy in to it to try and seem smart.
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Old 05-17-2011, 04:45 PM   #123
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i could see this put to use in 3rd world countries where people can't easily get to banks, or maybe don't trust them. rural china, parts of africa.
They already use US cash in those kinds of places.
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Old 05-17-2011, 04:46 PM   #124
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Well... 21 million minus 100,000 is 20,900,000, first off...

And yes. Deflation due to loss is built in. But it will take 140 years for all the bitcoins to be generated, so there's inflation to combat that deflation.
sorry, long day haha.... it just doesn't seem feasible that something like this would work..... would there be bitcoin insurance?
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Old 05-17-2011, 04:48 PM   #125
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You create addresses in your wallet, others can send money to them. You can make as many addresses as you want. Realistically they're tied to the wallet not an individual or a computer even. I could technically give you my wallet, nothing would tie it to you or me.
And you would have no way to prove if someone stole your wallet?
Quote:
Even if transactions are public you don't really know anything about them, you can't even deduce if the same wallet owns 2 separate addresses. Only thing people would be able to do is send bitcoins to your address.
Then how is the 'address' linked to your 'wallet'?

Quote:
It's sort of like a numbered bank account would be, if the bank never asked for your name when creating it and you just had a complex pass phrase to identify you as the owner.
Until you put money in or take money out, in which case there is a link to a name, bank account, etc.
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