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Old 02-19-2008, 04:22 PM   #26
zacks62fairlane
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Originally Posted by rougeben83 View Post
I can live with the EL sound; I've actually grown fond of it. In fact I have a lot more people saying "hay it dun sound like a honda to me!" than anything else. .
do you happen to have a sound clip or know of one? one of the other guys gave me one, but it is at an autox, so there is a lot of background noise.
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Old 02-19-2008, 04:29 PM   #27
drummerRS2505
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I love the boxer rumble, it is so unique and i like that. I can remember i test drove a very modified bug eye wrx before i bought my RS and it had a very loud rumble. I had never heard anything like that before and loved it. didn't buy the car cuz it was way to expensive.

I haven't seen any definite proof (dyno charts same car with EL then EUL with rest of system same) that can validate this. even subiesport mag. claimed this. they used twe superstock EL but never have compared it to some UEL. I just can't see it being that much more of a diffirence, maybe 1-2 whp and maybe 3-4 whp towards redline. The borla and borla replica's are still a much better design over stock with larger piping, 4-2-1 design, and less resrictive bends and collectors.

It pretty boils down to whar sound and torque band you want:
Honda-ish (still good sounding) or Boxer (hey is that a wrx or sti?)

I would like to see this power vs. sound myth go away. I am not hating against EL because i use a borla header i am just getting tired of hearing this junk.
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Old 02-19-2008, 04:47 PM   #28
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As far as tailoring the sound to your liking, have a listen to a variety of mufflers. If you want a screamer or deep, truck-like rumble, a major part of this is the muffler choice. Invest some time at the very least going through some old audio/video exhaust posts here, the RS25 exhaust thread, and some time on Youtube watching videos from specific brand/model searches.

The general consensus (from any shootout, comments, etc) is that Magnaflow has the best overall sound. Also look at Hooker and Borla. Avoid Flowmaster like the plague. Well liked, more Subaru specific models (those offering exhaust systems for Subaru) are Stromung and Greddy.

Realize that ANY universal cat and muffler can be welded into an exhaust system and custom fabricated exhausts are cheap. Well they can be. It really depends on who you go to. Some places charge easily double or more for the same work as another place. Shop around. Buy your muffler and cat on Ebay (cheap), shop around for muffler/exhaust places, and get the whole thing fabricated together. It should not cost more than around $200-$300 for everything from the header back. Add another $150-$200 for the cat and muffler from Ebay, and that's your header back cost. Add whatever header you want to run, and there's your whole exhaust system, not too bad for pricing when compared to many premade kits.

Oh, and the Magnaflow(Car-Sound) metal substrate spun cats are really nice(5995X series).

My bro has a 04 FXT, stock gutted up and down pipes, a 59956 Car-Sound cat, and Hooker 2.5" Max Flow muffler. It's very throaty, truck like in presence. It has a little low speed drone(very livable), and quiet overall(road/wind/engine noise is more pronounced on the highway). It's almost not audible from an distance(happy neighbors). The Max Flow mufflers are neat because they're designed to flow equivalent to a straight pipe of their inlet/outlet size, so there's no pressure change through the muffler.

The Borla's collector is a 2" pipe and the OBX collector is a 2.25" pipe so plan accordingly. A 2" pipe is more than capable of flowing what our engines can move all the way up to redline and beyond. Heck it will support the 2.5L turbo engines pumping an extra 50-60cfm through the system. You have the option of tapering down the piping to 2"...if you want. The goal with NA is to maximize flow speed just up to the point where it gets inefficient to shove more air through. This turns out to be 115 cfm per square inch pipe area or in the neighborhood of 240 fps velocity which is what people like to aim for when maximizing scavenging. Maximize velocity, minimize back pressure/restrictions, and minimize pressure changes throughout the system. Also realize exhaust cools, gets heavier, and slows as it flow through. It's nice to get it through and out of the system as fast as possible.
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Old 02-19-2008, 04:51 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by drummerRS2505 View Post
I love the boxer rumble, it is so unique and i like that. I can remember i test drove a very modified bug eye wrx before i bought my RS and it had a very loud rumble. I had never heard anything like that before and loved it. didn't buy the car cuz it was way to expensive.

I haven't seen any definite proof (dyno charts same car with EL then EUL with rest of system same) that can validate this. even subiesport mag. claimed this. they used twe superstock EL but never have compared it to some UEL. I just can't see it being that much more of a diffirence, maybe 1-2 whp and maybe 3-4 whp towards redline. The borla and borla replica's are still a much better design over stock with larger piping, 4-2-1 design, and less resrictive bends and collectors.

It pretty boils down to whar sound and torque band you want:
Honda-ish (still good sounding) or Boxer (hey is that a wrx or sti?)

I would like to see this power vs. sound myth go away. I am not hating against EL because i use a borla header i am just getting tired of hearing this junk.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...bx+header+dyno

There. Read the last part of the first post. It's more than "a couple of whp at redline". What I'm sick and tired of is the UEL people getting defensive about their header not making anywhere near the same HP as an EL design. What I would like to see if someone with borlas actually do a dyno run just like that one...but I have yet to see one. What I *can* say is that having owned both, I get a munch bigger kick in the pants with the EL vs. the UEL.

I don't get overly critical about people's choices with header because..well it's preference for pete's sakes. Some people LOVE the rumble. I don't. Some people also like putting STI wings on their RS's...other's don't, and that's perfectly fine too either way You just have to make a choice on what YOU want your car to be rather than try and make other people agree with what you did with your car all the time.

However, what is needed to be pointed out is that anyone that has ever been serious about making power out of an N/A subaru goes with an EL header, its just the way it works. The EL works even better with other modifications (cams and headwork especially).

And for ****s and giggles here's mine:

Stock ej25's on a Mustang make around 95-100whp, and ej22's around 80whp

Last edited by rougeben83; 02-19-2008 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 02-19-2008, 06:14 PM   #30
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Which one you got? the super stock one? any pics on the install or exhuast video?
I have the SS 4-2-1 with a 2.25" collector outlet. I dont have pics of insrtall or soundclip yet.. im still waiting on my stromung catback and random cat (they make the random cats per order so it takes a couple weeks b4 they ship i guess. kinda sucks, but it should be worth the wait.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by subikid View Post
show dyno results where EL vs UEL, EL made more then 2 or 3 hp more.

They don't exist. EL headers only make 2-5 hp more then UEL's. It is a myth that you should go for EL's for hp, UELs for sound. it's such a little difference.

Kevin
Are you mental? check out a dyno chart of a Borla UEL vs a Ebay UEL and there is 5hp diff right there. And EL's just add to that.. I have seen them.. on here to boot. Find em yourself or continue to be ignorant. EL's with nice merge collectors or Burns Collectors like the TWE's make the best gains. the collector makes or breaks the header in term of performance. You are so far off. +1 to the most important gains being in the middle of the powerband.

rougeben's link above is the dyno proof i had in mind, and there are others.

Last edited by GrundleJuice; 02-19-2008 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 02-19-2008, 06:45 PM   #31
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i was actually a lil upset to find out that the 06 and 07 2.5's came with EL headers. i was hopin to get more of that boxer rumble. After doing some research i found out that they went with the EL's to give it a few xtra horses. (correct me if i'm wrong). I've heard good things bout the OBX headers and will prolly invest in them in the future. But in my opinion ... sure it'd be great to get more of a boxer rumble out of ur 2.5 ... but to spend a few hundred bucks to loose HP and gain a tone ... idk not worth it to me. i'd rather put that money toward something that's gonna either give me more HP or free up some. dont get me wrong ... there is nothing like the boxer rumble ... but i dont think it'll ever sound like a WRX or STi. ask urself ... do u want the boxer rumble ... or do u want the HP. not like ur gonna get much out of the NA anyway but... good luck brotha!

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Old 02-19-2008, 10:51 PM   #32
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i was actually a lil upset to find out that the 06 and 07 2.5's came with EL headers. i was hopin to get more of that boxer rumble. After doing some research i found out that they went with the EL's to give it a few xtra horses. (correct me if i'm wrong). I've heard good things bout the OBX headers and will prolly invest in them in the future. But in my opinion ... sure it'd be great to get more of a boxer rumble out of ur 2.5 ... but to spend a few hundred bucks to loose HP and gain a tone ... idk not worth it to me. i'd rather put that money toward something that's gonna either give me more HP or free up some. dont get me wrong ... there is nothing like the boxer rumble ... but i dont think it'll ever sound like a WRX or STi. ask urself ... do u want the boxer rumble ... or do u want the HP. not like ur gonna get much out of the NA anyway but... good luck brotha!

~E

I think most aftermarket UEL headers will give you a couple HP, literally. Even over the factory EL's on the 06/07's but thats the rumor never seen a dyno of aftermarket UEL on an 06/07. I wonder if there is a dyno chart on here somewhere of 06/07 with UEL and catback. before (stock) and after.
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:18 PM   #33
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+1

it would be nice to see a before and after dyno
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Old 02-20-2008, 01:22 AM   #34
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hmm .. i was unaware of that. Thanks 4 the info.
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Old 02-20-2008, 01:56 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by SiouxBe1 View Post
If the OBX E.L. headers are back in-stock then I would suggest goin'
for it. I have the Cobb E.L. Headers on mine and I luv it.
With the improvement in power you'll soon forget the 'rumble' and
fall in luv with the 'VTEC' sound.
I also went with Cobb's EL Headers and they are amazing. I'm not sure what gave me more power: (I installed a Strumong Dual tip at the same time)
Along with Cobb's Cold Air Intake, I had gnarly sounds coming from all over which scarred old people walking down the street. I'll record a clip and post sometime this week. I don't have any experience with UEL headers, but I've heard great things about Borla's. Good luck
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Old 02-20-2008, 03:13 AM   #36
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i think the main problem with the 2.5i is the first cat is in the header. on the RSs the first cat is the cat pipe and the second cat is in the midpipe so all you need to do is get an aftermarket catback and your second cat is gone. so easy and frees up so much exhaust flow.

i plan on keeping my stock header and just removing the second cat in the catpipe since the O2 sensors are on the first cat.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:55 AM   #37
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I really do remember, that the stock 2.5i was dynoed at approx. 123 whp, at Rocket Rally. I will have to ask that member if he still has his dyno chart.

Frankly, at this point, I've had 3 different kinds of exhausts on my car.
Stock > STi axelback > custom 2.25" magnaflow > custom 2.25" fireball exhaust.
I've grown sick and tired of my EL tone, and I ordered myself an aftermarket wrx exhaust manifold. I'll be following Semaj's custom wrx header setup, to acquire that boxer rumble, and will post clips of that.

As for gaining/losing hp from stock EL to UEL wrx headers, i couldn't care less about an extra 7hp

If I wanted power, I would have gotten the wrx, or another car.
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Old 02-20-2008, 08:55 AM   #38
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i'm just curious about the dino results here...are the EL headers the ones with a cat delete, because those vs. UEL with stock cat would greatly skew the results..i'm not hating on EL, but i'm just trying to clear up all this header battle ****..i personally like my wrapped UEL headers, but that's just me...to each their own
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Old 02-20-2008, 10:27 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by rougeben83 View Post
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...bx+header+dyno

There. Read the last part of the first post. It's more than "a couple of whp at redline". What I'm sick and tired of is the UEL people getting defensive about their header not making anywhere near the same HP as an EL design. What I would like to see if someone with borlas actually do a dyno run just like that one...but I have yet to see one. What I *can* say is that having owned both, I get a munch bigger kick in the pants with the EL vs. the UEL.

I don't get overly critical about people's choices with header because..well it's preference for pete's sakes. Some people LOVE the rumble. I don't. Some people also like putting STI wings on their RS's...other's don't, and that's perfectly fine too either way You just have to make a choice on what YOU want your car to be rather than try and make other people agree with what you did with your car all the time.

However, what is needed to be pointed out is that anyone that has ever been serious about making power out of an N/A subaru goes with an EL header, its just the way it works. The EL works even better with other modifications (cams and headwork especially).

And for ****s and giggles here's mine:

Stock ej25's on a Mustang make around 95-100whp, and ej22's around 80whp
Thanks for that link. I read it and looked at all the dyno charts. One thing that came to mind is i am not familiar with the full MRT exhaust set-up. I assume that is UEL and a simliar catback to all others, but what about the cat/s or hfc/s. If the MRT system he used has a cat or hfc in it and i am 99.9% sure the obx/cobb/rallitek system has no cat at all then that would account for the large increase in power and torque, not from the header design then. Just something to think about.

I am not against anyone using EL header on their car. It's their choice. I don't think that EL cars sound horrible or rice either they still sound mean. me personally i liked the boxer sound. Either way a Header for our n/a cars is a pretty good bang for the buck upgrade unless your baller and get the TWE superstock which is like $800-900 for mainfold alone
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Old 02-20-2008, 11:01 AM   #40
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MRT is EL as well. Both are using catless versions in that comparison IIRC. Using a hiflow cat vs. straight has been shown to not make a whole of difference in terms of power anyway, maybe 1-2whp, so it's not that significant IMO.

Borla and its generic version are the only one that are of UEL design; it has been made to replicate the rumble of the old VW bugs basically...probably the where the misnomer of "boxer rumble" first came about.

And yes, my dyno chart is using a ceramic coated TWE

Last edited by rougeben83; 02-20-2008 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 02-20-2008, 11:26 AM   #41
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MRT is EL as well. Both are using catless versions in that comparison IIRC. Using a hiflow cat vs. straight has been shown to not make a whole of difference in terms of power anyway, maybe 1-2whp, so it's not that significant IMO.

Borla and its generic version are the only one that are of UEL design; it has been made to replicate the rumble of the old VW bugs basically...probably the where the misnomer of "boxer rumble" first came about.

And yes, my dyno chart is using a ceramic coated TWE
so the comparo was EL vs. EL, how does that prove the EL vs. UEL then ??? that thread only proves that the Cobb/obx set-up made more power then the MRT. so we are still at square one.

i will look at your dyno chart tonite (rougeben) all i see now is a red X at work.

The only ultimate way to prove this "theory" is to have a car and keep the same cat pipe (wether it be stock cats, hfc, or none at all) the same midpipe, and the same axleback and only change the header EL then UEL. But since cobb/obx/rallitek don't bolt up to the stock cat pipe you have to use their "cat pipe" which has no cat converters. so when you run the borla/replica to be fair it should use a cat-delete pipe as well.
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Old 02-20-2008, 11:29 AM   #42
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so the comparo was EL vs. EL, how does that prove the EL vs. UEL then ??? that thread only proves that the Cobb/obx set-up made more power then the MRT. so we are still at square one.

i will look at your dyno chart tonite (rougeben) all i see now is a red X at work.

The only ultimate way to prove this "theory" is to have a car and keep the same cat pipe (wether it be stock cats, hfc, or none at all) the same midpipe, and the same axleback and only change the header EL then UEL. But since cobb/obx/rallitek don't bolt up to the stock cat pipe you have to use their "cat pipe" which has no cat converters. so when you run the borla/replica to be fair it should use a cat-delete pipe as well.
Because the OBX header makes 15+ hp at the wheels and even more torque EVERYWHERE, not just redline, vs. stock and more power than another EL setup that costs over twice as much (the last part was more for the OP to show the how well the OBX stuff performs)? I have yet to see someone claim borlas make that kind of power anywhere on the curve. That's why I said I'd like to see someone with borlas do a comparable estimate of stock vs. UEL with a dyno as well

By my estimate, based on experience and what others have postulated,the UEL makes 6-8bhp over the stock @ peak and that's being generous.

Last edited by rougeben83; 02-20-2008 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 02-20-2008, 01:17 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by rougeben83 View Post
Because the OBX header makes 15+ hp at the wheels and even more torque EVERYWHERE, not just redline, vs. stock and more power than another EL setup that costs over twice as much (the last part was more for the OP to show the how well the OBX stuff performs)? I have yet to see someone claim borlas make that kind of power anywhere on the curve. That's why I said I'd like to see someone with borlas do a comparable estimate of stock vs. UEL with a dyno as well

By my estimate, based on experience and what others have postulated,the UEL makes 6-8bhp over the stock @ peak and that's being generous.
I hear ya man, I am not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else about this header debat. I am just skeptical about this kinda stuff. I can see the dyno charts and the +15whp. but come on 15whp from one (EL with no cat set-up) to another (same set-up) is just fishy. 15whp gain on our cars would equal +or- 21 chp. That would be similiar to installing some good cams with a tune.

This makes me think of a while ago when some brand of EL header system claimed that their set-up dropped the cars 1/4 mile time from a 15.2 to like a 14.0 with no other mods. I laughed when i heard that thats like the header and NO cat pipe somehow = a wrx (14.0 is somewhere around what a wrx could run stock) a 70 chp diffirence. haha.

I don't want to deter anyone from tuning and modding their n/a cars as i myself a doing mine too. All i wanna stress is don't believe everything you hear and read and be realistic about things.

All is good and were all subie enthusiasts and friends...
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Old 02-20-2008, 01:29 PM   #44
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/me pops popcorn and sits back to watch, wondering when someone finally will find the thread from this forum that actually has dyno plots of stock, UEL, and EL all on one graph
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Old 02-20-2008, 03:44 PM   #45
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we really need to get all the header info, installation threads, and dyno charts together and just make a sticky.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:12 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by drummerRS2505 View Post
I hear ya man, I am not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else about this header debat. I am just skeptical about this kinda stuff. I can see the dyno charts and the +15whp. but come on 15whp from one (EL with no cat set-up) to another (same set-up) is just fishy. 15whp gain on our cars would equal +or- 21 chp. That would be similiar to installing some good cams with a tune.

This makes me think of a while ago when some brand of EL header system claimed that their set-up dropped the cars 1/4 mile time from a 15.2 to like a 14.0 with no other mods. I laughed when i heard that thats like the header and NO cat pipe somehow = a wrx (14.0 is somewhere around what a wrx could run stock) a 70 chp diffirence. haha.

I don't want to deter anyone from tuning and modding their n/a cars as i myself a doing mine too. All i wanna stress is don't believe everything you hear and read and be realistic about things.

All is good and were all subie enthusiasts and friends...
FWIW, I'm also making about 13-15whp above stock...TWE header, catback, and stock cats - on a Mustang Dyno no less

Last edited by rougeben83; 02-20-2008 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 02-20-2008, 06:05 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by rougeben83 View Post
FWIW, I'm also making about 13-15whp above stock...TWE header, catback, and stock cats - on a Mustang Dyno no less
Is that "above someone else's stock" or "before and after on my car"?

Also, has the car been tuned?
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Old 02-20-2008, 06:13 PM   #48
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we really need to get all the header info, installation threads, and dyno charts together and just make a sticky.

Good Idea!! I would have done a before and after dyno comaprison with my car and set-up no problem but the closest AWD dyno is 3.5 hours away (K.C.) and they cater more to audi/porshe etc... the closest subaru friendly dyno would be in chicago at P&L or AMS.
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Old 02-20-2008, 07:16 PM   #49
rougeben83
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Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Is that "above someone else's stock" or "before and after on my car"?

Also, has the car been tuned?
Nope, just an average of what others have dynoed on Mustangs dynos in the past. I never really intended to use that dyno chart for anything quantifiable; it's actually my baseline for future stuff I'll be doing on the car. But it just shows that the dyno results in that link isn't a simple fluke as someone said before - there's some real gains in EL that you can both see on the dyno and on the street.

No tune either. Patrick Olsen, the guy that did the MRT vs OBX writeup, also didn't use any EM I think. It's when you start adding cams, headwork, etc etc that tuning would be beneficial, but with this level, it's just not worth the cost IMO.
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Old 02-20-2008, 07:27 PM   #50
williaty
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Originally Posted by rougeben83 View Post
Nope, just an average of what others have dynoed on Mustangs dynos in the past. I never really intended to use that dyno chart for anything quantifiable; it's actually my baseline for future stuff I'll be doing on the car. But it just shows that the dyno results in that link isn't a simple fluke as someone said before - there's some real gains in EL that you can both see on the dyno and on the street.

No tune either. Patrick Olsen, the guy that did the MRT vs OBX writeup, also didn't use any EM I think. It's when you start adding cams, headwork, etc etc that tuning would be beneficial, but with this level, it's just not worth the cost IMO.
The tune will certainly be helpful, but not required. Both the total load and the percent of spent gasses remaining in the cylinder for the next cycle will be different after the addition of headers. Both of those would benefit from tuning. There's almost NO headroom in the stock tables in terms of engine load. The tables only go to 1.3g/rev and stock cars will hit ~1.25g/rev.
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